Another blown engine

[ViperGeorge]

A friend and I were out in our Vipers on Saturday. His car started to make a knocking sound from the bottom end and went into limp mode. He had it towed to the dealer and the dealer has confirmed metal shavings in the pan and filter. He literally checked the oil the day before. Car is bone stock and is a 14 TA. He was actually scheduled to get R28 and R29 done on Tuesday. Dealer is sending oil and filter to Dodge but has told him the engine will be covered under warranty. Once I know what happened (spun bearing, etc.) I will post it.

[supersnake]

How many miles on that one?

[BJG32]

It's stock I assume?

[2doorrocket]

It's stock I assume?

I believe it's "bone stock" according to the OP. Maybe esfand would have helped.

[swexlin]

Shit. That's all I have to say. Sorry, and please keep us posted.

[Space Truckin]

It's stock I assume?


Car is bone stock and is a 14 TA. Once I know what happened (spun bearing, etc.) I will post it.


Come on Ben....:slap:

[Ryno]

Sorry to hear this. :(

[Dr.Ron]

Not good!

[Fatboy 18]

How many miles on that 14 TA? We have a UK member with a 14 TA its done over 5k with no issues so far. :)

[BJG32]

I believe it's "bone stock" according to the OP. Maybe esfand would have helped.


Come on Ben....:slap:


Ugh....I guess he didn't hold my interest.... DUH!!!

Ok....old news here. FCA will take care of it. Be glad it happened under warranty and at the end of driving season!!!.....and personally I think he should be glad it happened period! Given the history, I strongly feel a replaced engine on a 13/14 is more desirable than an original engine. Knowing what I know now and what I have been through I am 110% happy my engine blew up and was replaced. If I was looking for a 13/14 I would desire one with a replaced engine.

It doesn't feel like it, but trust me this is a blessing!

[Brad00GTS]

How many miles on that 14 TA? We have a UK member with a 14 TA its done over 5k with no issues so far. :)

My orange 14 TA had 3600 miles and probably would have gone for quite a bit more. The reason I caught mine was, I tried to sell it and someone asked if I heard any engine noise. I had heard a ticking noise from the beginning so I told them I would check on it. Once I took it in, that was all she wrote.

[SnakeWatching]

..........If I was looking for a 13/14 I would desire one with a replaced engine......, but trust me this is a blessing!

I agree with this

[ViperPete]

Dang... What an awful thing.

What do you supposed FCA does with all the blown engines?

Id love to buy one....

[Dman]

Ugh....I guess he didn't hold my interest.... DUH!!!

Ok....old news here. FCA will take care of it. Be glad it happened under warranty and at the end of driving season!!!.....and personally I think he should be glad it happened period! Given the history, I strongly feel a replaced engine on a 13/14 is more desirable than an original engine. Knowing what I know now and what I have been through I am 110% happy my engine blew up and was replaced. If I was looking for a 13/14 I would desire one with a replaced engine.

It doesn't feel like it, but trust me this is a blessing!

Considering replacement engines are spinning bearings, I'm not sure I agree. Replacing a defective build with a defective build is no more valuable to me. We know as of 2016 builds, the problem is still there. I don't see any evidence that 13/14 cars are any more subject to failure than 15/16 cars. We see plenty of newer car failures, it's just a matter of getting in the miles for the failure to occur. When buying a gen5, you have to assume there could be an engine failure at any time in any model year from 13-16, and with replacement engines, that's the fact of it.

2017 is only excluded at the moment as we haven't heard of a failure .... yet. We have no basis to even assume cars being built right now won't have the exact same failure rate as 13/14/15/16 cars, whatever that rate truly is.

[Dman]

Dang... What an awful thing.

What do you supposed FCA does with all the blown engines?

Id love to buy one....

You probably wouldn't. I've heard they don't rebuild because they can't. The blocks are 'dirty'. If FCA has no confidence in rebuilding them, then they're certainly junk blocks, as we know Sergio would pick his grand mothers pocket for a nickel.

[2doorrocket]

You probably wouldn't. I've heard they don't rebuild because they can't. The blocks are 'dirty'. If FCA has no confidence in rebuilding them, then they're certainly junk blocks, as we know Sergio would pick his grand mothers pocket for a nickel.

Lol! That last line though.

[ViperPete]

You probably wouldn't. I've heard they don't rebuild because they can't. The blocks are 'dirty'. If FCA has no confidence in rebuilding them, then they're certainly junk blocks, as we know Sergio would pick his grand mothers pocket for a nickel.

Would still be nice to have one sitting on an engine stand in the garage ;)

[Camfab]

I believe the Gen II blocks were made in England, is that still the case?

[BJG32]

I believe the Gen II blocks were made in England, is that still the case?

My guess is Gen V is made in China..... ;)

[sadil]

Aside from DISC, what other 2016 engines have blown?

I also have 1 2015 engine that supposedly had spun bearings but it was a "friend of a friend".

[Fatboy 18]

My orange 14 TA had 3600 miles and probably would have gone for quite a bit more. The reason I caught mine was, I tried to sell it and someone asked if I heard any engine noise. I had heard a ticking noise from the beginning so I told them I would check on it. Once I took it in, that was all she wrote.

Wow, I did not know you had trouble with yours too! Thanks for the info :)

[BJG32]

Aside from DISC, what other 2016 engines have blown?

I also have 1 2015 engine that supposedly had spun bearings but it was a "friend of a friend".

Honestly, I don't think you have anything to worry about with a 15 on up or a 13/14 with a replaced engine. I am just as guilty as the next guy freaking out about these engines.... but the more I read and think about it the problem seems to be 'fixed' or at least drastically improved. We just aren't hearing about alarming numbers of 15/16 blowing up.

I still think DISC should of been covered and FCA is looking for ways out of replacing bad engines....but I am also feeling like if you watch your oil on a 15 on up you should be good to go. 13/14 with original engines are the unknown.

[sadil]

As per my list, average failure is around 5k miles. Obviously a small sample size but that's all we got. Not sure about 2016, but a few west coast regularly driven 15's should be starting to get close to that. It would be awesome if we could have everyone report their mileage! :) I can take care of recording if it becomes a thing lol.

[Dr.Ron]

I also have 1 2015 engine that supposedly had spun bearings but it was a "friend of a friend."

That was my confusion in my message to you. Sorry!!

[Jack B]

If you go back to the list that was compiled, were not the 14's over 50% of the failures

[GTS Dean]

Gen IV blocks were cast by CAPARO in the UK. Not sure who cast the suspect blocks for the Gen V.

[Dman]

Honestly, I don't think you have anything to worry about with a 15 on up or a 13/14 with a replaced engine. I am just as guilty as the next guy freaking out about these engines.... but the more I read and think about it the problem seems to be 'fixed' or at least drastically improved. We just aren't hearing about alarming numbers of 15/16 blowing up.

I still think DISC should of been covered and FCA is looking for ways out of replacing bad engines....but I am also feeling like if you watch your oil on a 15 on up you should be good to go. 13/14 with original engines are the unknown.

Yea, that's just not the case though. We have 15/16 cars burning a qt/1000 miles, and spinning bearings. Replacement engines, put into cars this year, spinning bearings. This is due to debris. Nothing has changed from 2013 until literally today. Thinking you're safer with a 15/16 is just not backed by what's happening, it'd be nice to think the 17s will not have debris issues, but since 16s have the same issues, we won't know until probably mid next year. A cleaning station won't fix dirty blocks that have debris waiting to break lose after mileage. FCA tried a cheap fix and it failed. We've heard nothing in evidence of any change to remedy this. But if you don't mod, you can just keep getting new engines until they run out of them.

[AZTVR]

Gen IV blocks were cast by CAPARO in the UK. Not sure who cast the suspect blocks for the Gen V.
Grainger & Worrall (http://www.gwcast.com/en/) , was selected to do the Gen V block, according to Maurice Liang's book.

[ViperJon]

Using the 2014 TA's as a subset (159 cars) it's clear that at a minimum 10% of them if not more (maybe a lot more) are bad....that's outrageous. There's no denying the numbers.

[1.8t]

Any word on the mileage of the car?

[BJG32]

Yea, that's just not the case though. We have 15/16 cars burning a qt/1000 miles, and spinning bearings. Replacement engines, put into cars this year, spinning bearings. This is due to debris. Nothing has changed from 2013 until literally today. Thinking you're safer with a 15/16 is just not backed by what's happening, it'd be nice to think the 17s will not have debris issues, but since 16s have the same issues, we won't know until probably mid next year. A cleaning station won't fix dirty blocks that have debris waiting to break lose after mileage. FCA tried a cheap fix and it failed. We've heard nothing in evidence of any change to remedy this. But if you don't mod, you can just keep getting new engines until they run out of them.

Granted i get 95% of my info from here, but your saying more than a handful of '15/16 models have spun a bearing? Ugh...

[v10enomous]

I try not to look at these threads too much because I prefer to live in denial but how many have failed after both recalls ?

[Vypr Phil]

I believe the Gen II blocks were made in England, is that still the case?

North West Mongolia.

[SACA]

ViperGeorge - I hope it all works out for your buddy. I just got word back on my car that they will NOT be assisting me with my motor.

[SRT_BluByU]

most have been '13s and early '14s before the block washing station was installed at the plant. few '15s and even fewer '16s. seems like thngs got better after the block wash station was installed. the others could have run low on oil or just pure manf defect the % effected seems so low. id want a higher mileage 13-14 or one with a replaced engine if i were looking at thise years

[dadeuce]

ViperGeorge - I hope it all works out for your buddy. I just got word back on my car that they will NOT be assisting me with my motor.

Sorry to hear that. FCA is going to be getting word back from a lot of us that we aren't going to be assisting them with buying future FCA products.

[zee]

A 13/14 with just r29 issued is in a lot better shape then one with r28/r29. The contamination issue is scary. I have 9,000 miles on my TA and no issues (r29 issued only).

[V10 Snake]

thats a shame. I had the r28/29 recall performed this past May, came back fine. just hit 6,000 miles , bone stock and car has run flawless since day 1.

[Special Ed]

Using the 2014 TA's as a subset (159 cars) it's clear that at a minimum 10% of them if not more (maybe a lot more) are bad....that's outrageous. There's no denying the numbers..



How do use TA's as a sub set. Every viper gets the same engine regardless of model. You have to look at the total number of cars produced.

[Dfunk]

I have 5400 miles on my 2016 ACR-E with heads and cam. A lot of those are hard miles. I change oil and filer around 1500 miles and watch oil pressure religiously. Oil levels are checked almost every time I drive it and have noticed only 1/4 quart oil usage. If it blows I'll have it rebuilt better and stronger.

[prpaster]

How would you know if your car is an early or later 2014 ? by the Vin ? Never mind it is on the door .. 8-13 here at 1700 miles so far no oil consumption

[ViperGeorge]

The car had approximately 3,000 miles on it when it let go. Hopefully FCA doesn't deny his warranty because he used other than Mopar wax on the paint.

[Coloviper]

Well that just plain sucks George.

[BJG32]

How would you know if your car is an early or later 2014 ? by the Vin ? Never mind it is on the door .. 8-13 here at 1700 miles so far no oil consumption

I believe production date is on the door sticker.

[PaulP]

I have 5400 miles on my 2016 ACR-E with heads and cam. A lot of those are hard miles. I change oil and filer around 1500 miles and watch oil pressure religiously. Oil levels are checked almost every time I drive it and have noticed only 1/4 quart oil usage. If it blows I'll have it rebuilt better and stronger.

Exactly you can have it built like i had my motor built , With all the oiling mods from exotic engines like, crank mods, bearing mods, mains mods etc, tolerances and clearances etc, so these engines do not have oiling issues again. Perfect time for someone to trade me a genv for my new tt built gen3 lol

[Terminator02]

A 13/14 with just r29 issued is in a lot better shape then one with r28/r29. The contamination issue is scary. I have 9,000 miles on my TA and no issues (r29 issued only).

No the car that is in the best shape is the one performing the best with no anomalies and the one that doesn't spin bearings. Passing tests that still resulted in failures to some means little. My car doesn't consume a drop of oil and other members have confirmed and looked over my car thoroughly. It's a crap shoot plain and simple. The recalls are risk factors but nothing to the actual performance or health of the vehicle. It's like determine health looking only at blood work and not symptoms and how a person feels.

[7TH_SIGN]

:(

Nothing I can say that I already haven't said in the other failed engine threads. Sorry you have to go through this George.

[Fatboy 18]

Grainger & Worrall (http://www.gwcast.com/en/) , was selected to do the Gen V block, according to Maurice Liang's book.

Sounds like I need to round up a Posse and head up to Birmingham with a few Boys :t0135::web_driver::p0257:

[ViperJon]

.

How do use TA's as a sub set. Every viper gets the same engine regardless of model. You have to look at the total number of cars produced.

That's correct Shortbus....but using that group of 159 known cars as a baseline average can we extrapolate out that 10% or more have failed overall?
That would be an alarming number of failures.

[1Koolasp 16ACR]

If Mine Blows Up , Don't Care I Will Not Even Warranty It , I Would Ship The Car To Todd At A&C Performance And Have Him Rebuild The Motor On My Dime , Build It Stronger And Not Look Back , So Let Mine Blow !!

[v10enomous]

What I feel like reading these threads...:smilielol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qba9F57HcUQ

[Fatboy 18]

Such a sad film :(

[Special Ed]

That's correct Shortbus....but using that group of 159 known cars as a baseline average can we extrapolate out that 10% or more have failed overall?
That would be an alarming number of failures.

What's alarming is that I allowed myselt to have a battle of wits with a unarmed person.

[ViperJon]

What's alarming is that I allowed myselt to have a battle of wits with a unarmed person.

It's "an" Shortbus. Come back when you have something to add, it'll be a first.

[sadil]

Guys raving about "f-warranty", do you really feel the need to post about how you hope your engines will blow so you can throw a whole bunch of cash at the rebuild?

Having a logical conversation is getting harder and harder around here.

Viper Geroge, whenever you have some specific info, I will be interested in knowing!

[ViperGeorge]

Guys raving about "f-warranty", do you really feel the need to post about how you hope your engines will blow so you can throw a whole bunch of cash at the rebuild?

Having a logical conversation is getting harder and harder around here.

Viper Geroge, whenever you have some specific info, I will be interested in knowing!

Once I know anything I will post it. Dealer got on the car quickly so that's a plus.

[ViperGeorge]

I have a 14 GTS with almost 14,000 miles on it and a 15 TA 2.0 with close to 10,000 miles. Is there a mileage when an engine can be considered free of debris? What is the highest mileage car to spin a bearing? Should I be worried or am I in the clear?

[texasram]

A 13/14 with just r29 issued is in a lot better shape then one with r28/r29. The contamination issue is scary. I have 9,000 miles on my TA and no issues (r29 issued only).
Same here

[Dman]

I have a 14 GTS with almost 14,000 miles on it and a 15 TA 2.0 with close to 10,000 miles. Is there a mileage when an engine can be considered free of debris? What is the highest mileage car to spin a bearing? Should I be worried or am I in the clear?

I believe 10k miles is the highest we've seen online, but online is only a fraction of the population. Every viper guy I meet in person seems to not be on these sites, so who really knows .. oh, FCA I guess.

[texasram]

No the car that is in the best shape is the one performing the best with no anomalies and the one that doesn't spin bearings. Passing tests that still resulted in failures to some means little. My car doesn't consume a drop of oil and other members have confirmed and looked over my car thoroughly. It's a crap shoot plain and simple. The recalls are risk factors but nothing to the actual performance or health of the vehicle. It's like determine health looking only at blood work and not symptoms and how a person feels.
If you actually knew why FCA issued only r29 on some cars then your point would be totally valid

[Dman]

Same here

We've seen an R29 car spin bearings, so that's not an indicator of anything, apparently. So far online I don't think we've seen a car that passed R28 fall apart. FWIW. My 13 passed and never burned more than a drop of oil, I sold to upgrade and the week she sold this crap storm started. Now, I wish I had her back, as it gave good indications of being a perfect car, vs anything I might buy which would involve blind luck now.

[texasram]

I have a 14 GTS with almost 14,000 miles on it and a 15 TA 2.0 with close to 10,000 miles. Is there a mileage when an engine can be considered free of debris? What is the highest mileage car to spin a bearing? Should I be worried or am I in the clear?
Its only in the less-5000 mile bracket that puts you in the upper percentile of failures, past that and the percentages drop significantly

[texasram]

We've seen an R29 car spin bearings, so that's not an indicator of anything, apparently. So far online I don't think we've seen a car that passed R28 fall apart. FWIW. My 13 passed and never burned more than a drop of oil, I sold to upgrade and the week she sold this crap storm started. Now, I wish I had her back, as it gave good indications of being a perfect car, vs anything I might buy which would involve blind luck now.
Not saying r29 only issued cars wont fail, just that it was done for a reason

[BJG32]

I still think some of these bearings spinning are from low oil. 3000 miles without checking can take 3 qts down and well into the danger zone....3xxx miles seems to be the sweet spot. Nobody will admit low oil out of embarrassment or possible responsibility for repairs. Easy enough to cover up too. Additionally you may not of known you had low oil due to the F'd up dip stick readings.

[texasram]

Yayy just passed 100 posts!!!!!

[ViperGeorge]

I still think some of these bearings spinning are from low oil. 3000 miles without checking can take 3 qts down and well into the danger zone....3xxx miles seems to be the sweet spot. Nobody will admit low oil out of embarrassment or possible responsibility for repairs. Easy enough to cover up too. Additionally you may not of known you had low oil due to the F'd up dip stick readings.

That stupid dipstick design is probably responsible for several blown engines. I know how to check the oil and it is still a royal pain and I'm never sure if my readings are correct.

[Larryskillzs]

Am I reading this correctly,

This was a Viper that needed the R28/29, was about to get the recall done and the engine went a week before it was going to be brought in for service.

The dealer now has the car and most likely will be covered under warranty.

My questions are simple. How long has the person owned the Viper and why did this person wait this long to get the R28/29 recall done?

In my crystal ball I'll assume this was a blown engine due to oil consumption and the owner will be getting a new engine no questions asked.

[texasram]

That stupid dipstick design is probably responsible for several blown engines. I know how to check the oil and it is still a royal pain and I'm never sure if my readings are correct.
I have found that there's no problem reading the oil when its fresh and that at the end of its life it is difficult to read at least in my case, just before my last change it was baffling me but at the beginning was easy and then right after change it was back to easy reads

[swexlin]

I have a 14 GTS with almost 14,000 miles on it and a 15 TA 2.0 with close to 10,000 miles. Is there a mileage when an engine can be considered free of debris? What is the highest mileage car to spin a bearing? Should I be worried or am I in the clear?

I believe Arizona's 13 Track Pack went with 12,000 miles.

[ViperGeorge]

Am I reading this correctly,

This was a Viper that needed the R28/29, was about to get the recall done and the engine went a week before it was going to be brought in for service.

The dealer now has the car and most likely will be covered under warranty.

My questions are simple. How long has the person owned the Viper and why did this person wait this long to get the R28/29 recall done?

In my crystal ball I'll assume this was a blown engine due to oil consumption and the owner will be getting a new engine no questions asked.

Yes, the car was scheduled to go in for the recalls the Tuesday following the Saturday when the engine blew. He has not had the car long but he had scheduled the recalls and was waiting for the dealer to get the parts needed.

No indication as to why the engine blew yet. My guess is debris but that's a guess.

[Coloviper]

I have a 14 GTS with almost 14,000 miles on it and a 15 TA 2.0 with close to 10,000 miles. Is there a mileage when an engine can be considered free of debris? What is the highest mileage car to spin a bearing? Should I be worried or am I in the clear?

George, I would not worry about the 14, as that car is 100% stock, the 15 with the mods, it might leave you up with the bill if something happened. I would trade that 15 up to a new 17 ACRE and leave that car 100% stock. That 15 would be in demand with the color and lack of TA2.0s for that year.

I still think some of that heat sensitive paint on the dipstick would help with reading the stick. I don't think it is the mileage as much as how the car is used.

For me personally, it is scary as I just can't justify a used GEN V with that big unknown hanging out there without 100% reassurance of warranty coverage from FCA in the event of failure. I have this ole 96' which is very solid and reliable despite being severely inferior to the GEN V, but know what I have. Man I wish I wasn't so friggin' broke at the moment to justify a new purchase.

[ViperGeorge]

George, I would not worry about the 14, as that car is 100% stock, the 15 with the mods, it might leave you up with the bill if something happened. I would trade that 15 up to a new 17 ACRE and leave that car 100% stock. That 15 would be in demand with the color and lack of TA2.0s for that year.

I still think some of that heat sensitive paint on the dipstick would help with reading the stick. I don't think it is the mileage as much as how the car is used.

For me personally, it is scary as I just can't justify a used GEN V with that big unknown hanging out there without 100% reassurance of warranty coverage from FCA in the event of failure. I have this ole 96' which is very solid and reliable despite being severely inferior to the GEN V, but know what I have. Man I wish I wasn't so friggin' broke at the moment to justify a new purchase.

Rick,

Yea, this whole situation sucks. Let's say you buy a used Gen 5 and it looks good and has the OEM PCM installed, how would you ever know if a previous owner had the Arrow PCM installed at one point and removed it? I'm sure most dealers are not checking the mileage in the PCM against the odometer. Why would they? Unless they've been reading this thread they would have no reason to suspect anything. You would be screwed if after buying that used Gen 5 your engine blows and FCA says "sorry, the mileage doesn't match and that means you at one time had the Arrow controller installed, your warranty is void."

FCA execs really should get their heads out of their ass. They are setting up their dealer network for lawsuits. In my example, who are you going to go after? FCA denies your warranty claim so you naturally go after the dealer who sold you a car "with full factory warranty."

[Coloviper]

Agreed George! The juice just doesn't seem worth the squeeze at the moment. Lots of toys out there on everyone's wish list despite if they are a die hard manufacturer fan boy or not. BTW Dad canceled his 17 Hellcat Challenger order as he words it "the whole FCA thing seems to be a mess, whether Viper, Jeep or whatever. I don't have time this late in my life to putz around or argue with a dealer over any potential thing they should just be warrantying anyway. BMW doesn't give me one IODA of issues on any issue with that truck. Not even a stare or harsh glance. Neither has Ford on my many work trucks in my company." George, I believe he is eyeing the potential 18' Shelby GT-500 convertible as his "last" toy now. Change fluids, maintain it and drive it period. Hope it works out for him. Can't say I blame him. FCA needs to really wake up as there are a lot of people out there that are doing their homework and they are not happy with how FCA is treating "some" of those die hard owners in those fringe cases.

[Jack B]

I am surprised no one has stated that in the past. It makes one wonder what percentage of the failures are oil related.

What is also strange, the cause of the oil consumption has not been determined. I hate to keep repeating this, PLEASE, someone with an oil consuming car, get a leak-down test, that will help us all.


I still think some of these bearings spinning are from low oil. 3000 miles without checking can take 3 qts down and well into the danger zone....3xxx miles seems to be the sweet spot. Nobody will admit low oil out of embarrassment or possible responsibility for repairs. Easy enough to cover up too. Additionally you may not of known you had low oil due to the F'd up dip stick readings.

[ViperJon]

The fact of the matter is that if you are looking at a used Viper you HAVE to have the mileage on the odometer compared to the mileage on the PCM if you want to be assured of warranty coverage. It's going to be just part of getting a PPI done.

[Pappy]

I am surprised no one has stated that in the past. It makes one wonder what percentage of the failures are oil related.

What is also strange, the cause of the oil consumption has not been determined. I hate to keep repeating this, PLEASE, someone with an oil consuming car, get a leak-down test, that will help us all.

I think there are three separate oil consumption issues: one prompted the recall to re-route the pcv line to prevent oil from being sucked into the intake, one is oil consumed during break-in (indicated as likely in the owner's manual), and the last would be oil consumption for "other" reasons (improper break-in, ring damage, bad tolerances, or just heavy track use (also noted in the owner's manual as a probability) etc.). My ACR-E used 3.5 quarts of oil in 1369 miles during a by-the-book break-in. I kept it full but recorded each ounce added, and I changed the oil at 500 miles. The car now has 2200 miles and has not used a drop since the 1369-mile point - break-in successful! Blackstone reports at 497 and 1999 miles were both excellent. If I had not been diligent in monitoring the oil level I could have easily damaged bearings or blown the motor due to low oil before everything sealed up. If you read the tech specs on the Viper Mahle pistons, they are forged and they do have narrow, low tension rings, so I expected (and don't have a problem with) some oil usage during break-in. The shallow, flat oil pan makes oil level fairly critical during aggressive maneuvering, so folks running several quarts low are just asking for trouble.

Pappy

[zee]

We've seen an R29 car spin bearings, so that's not an indicator of anything, apparently. So far online I don't think we've seen a car that passed R28 fall apart. FWIW. My 13 passed and never burned more than a drop of oil, I sold to upgrade and the week she sold this crap storm started. Now, I wish I had her back, as it gave good indications of being a perfect car, vs anything I might buy which would involve blind luck now.

Cars issued r29 and blow are likely due to consumption (which you can monitor). Cars with r28 have a contamination risk and that is very hard to do anything about. The r29 issued cars only will be significantly less at risk (that is proven by the low % of failures on 2015's which had only r29 issued). I did a lot of research before buying and there is a clear trend that cars with r28/r29 vs just those with r29 issues are blowing a lot more often.

[zee]

No the car that is in the best shape is the one performing the best with no anomalies and the one that doesn't spin bearings. Passing tests that still resulted in failures to some means little. My car doesn't consume a drop of oil and other members have confirmed and looked over my car thoroughly. It's a crap shoot plain and simple. The recalls are risk factors but nothing to the actual performance or health of the vehicle. It's like determine health looking only at blood work and not symptoms and how a person feels.

You have really no control if you have a contamination issue. The shavings can happen any any range of mileage (typically before 5-6k miles). There was a bad batch of motors and FCA supposedly identified the group that was at risk (r28). R29 is consumption and at least you can monitor that to some degree.

[Dman]

R29 is about getting oil on the filter. It's not an oil consumption fix. Geesh. Guys are burning 1qt/1,000 miles, we know that's not found on the filter, right? That'd be one helluva mess. Regardless what FCA calls it, R29 was no more a fix for oil consumption than R28 was a fix for sand in these blocks. We're also making things up, we post that we think bearing failure from 15 on is from guys not checking the oil. So, we have bearing failure from dirty blocks prior to 15, we have 15 and 16 failed engines that when dealers and aftermarket vendors open them they find debris from a dirty block and the owner attests to checking oil levels. Why would anyone think its oil levels when trusted dealers and engine gurus are reoporting there's shit in the pans, etc on these cars, all the way to 2016. I know later buyers want to somehow think they're car is special and safe in some way, but there's zero evidence of that. We have zero evidence a 17 car is free from this. We've also see engines replaced on later cars for oil consumption, cars after the R29 was well over with, soooo, yea, again, FCA has fixed nothing since 2013 based on evidence we can see. 2017 remains a mystery until that 1st poor guy/gal posts.

[Terminator02]

The fact of the matter is that if you are looking at a used Viper you HAVE to have the mileage on the odometer compared to the mileage on the PCM if you want to be assured of warranty coverage. It's going to be just part of getting a PPI done.

I agree Jon but I don't see that being reality. In a few years when this dies out and life moves on there will be plenty of people who wanted a gen V but it was out of their budget so they passed initially. Many people will not know of this whole debacle because they aren't forum types and I see that as an issue. More importantly, the onus of responsibility should be on the dealer doing proper due diligence before selling a used car with a former ecu on it and I just don't see that happening either.

For the sake of all our cars we would one day part with, I'd hope that some protocols are put in place by FCA so that this doesn't continue down the line for the life of the vehicle. I wouldn't mind if FCA gave every dealer specific instructions when taking in any pre owned viper as it saves everyone headache. Finally, I think if these things don't occur then the unsuspecting owner who buys the car with a full warranty should just sue the dealership as it's an easily winable battle. I just think it can be avoided with some ownership of the problems. I'm so over this issue but it's going to keep surfacing where things stand now for some of the reasons I stated.

[Terminator02]

R29 is about getting oil on the filter. It's not an oil consumption fix. Geesh. Guys are burning 1qt/1,000 miles, we know that's not found on the filter, right? That'd be one helluva mess. Regardless what FCA calls it, R29 was no more a fix for oil consumption than R28 was a fix for sand in these blocks. We're also making things up, we post that we think bearing failure from 15 on is from guys not checking the oil. So, we have bearing failure from dirty blocks prior to 15, we have 15 and 16 failed engines that when dealers and aftermarket vendors open them they find debris from a dirty block and the owner attests to checking oil levels. Why would anyone think its oil levels when trusted dealers and engine gurus are reoporting there's shit in the pans, etc on these cars, all the way to 2016. I know later buyers want to somehow think they're car is special and safe in some way, but there's zero evidence of that. We have zero evidence a 17 car is free from this. We've also see engines replaced on later cars for oil consumption, cars after the R29 was well over with, soooo, yea, again, FCA has fixed nothing since 2013 based on evidence we can see. 2017 remains a mystery until that 1st poor guy/gal posts.

That's kinda my point. These recalls don't address the systemic issues. They may have identified "something" but maybe only some at risk cars. From what I can gather overall, most engines are spinning bearings due to lack of owners checking oil. Yes there are plenty of engines blown with issues of debris but I see many blown motors with very low oil. While I also agree that one shouldn't need to check oil all the time, I'd say more than half of these failures may have been prevented if daily oil readings were taken during driving season. If the car isn't burning oil, most cars are not breaking down. At least from what I can tell.

[98intrigue]

We've seen an R29 car spin bearings, so that's not an indicator of anything, apparently. So far online I don't think we've seen a car that passed R28 fall apart. FWIW. My 13 passed and never burned more than a drop of oil, I sold to upgrade and the week she sold this crap storm started. Now, I wish I had her back, as it gave good indications of being a perfect car, vs anything I might buy which would involve blind luck now.

There have been 2 local Vipers that passed R28 and then spun bearings afterwards. A '14 SRT and a '14 Orange TA.

[ViperGeorge]

I know someone asked this already and I don't know if we can actually get an answer but it would be good to know if cars that spin bearings are using Penzoil 0/40 or Mobil 1. In my 15 TA I've been using Mobil 1 15/50 because that is what Dick Winkles recommended for cars that see the track. I did a track day recently in the car and decided to change the oil today. It only had 1500 miles on it but I figured what the heck. Checked the oil before changing it and it was dead nuts on. Car didn't burn one single drop of oil in 1500 miles which included a track day.

This just reinforces to me that some cars are burning oil for some unknown reason and others don't.

[Stealth]

My '14 GTS has 7,800 mi. and had R28 and R29. It has never burned any oil. It has also had about 4 oil and filter changes to keep everything fresh, etc. It is actually hard to see any pattern in the failures since all years and models seem to be affected. Like some others, I suspect low oil levels were a factor in at least some of the failures.

[Dman]

That's kinda my point. These recalls don't address the systemic issues. They may have identified "something" but maybe only some at risk cars. From what I can gather overall, most engines are spinning bearings due to lack of owners checking oil. Yes there are plenty of engines blown with issues of debris but I see many blown motors with very low oil. While I also agree that one shouldn't need to check oil all the time, I'd say more than half of these failures may have been prevented if daily oil readings were taken during driving season. If the car isn't burning oil, most cars are not breaking down. At least from what I can tell.

I guess I just don't know where you're getting this info that many engines blow from low oil because owners aren't checking. Low oil engine failures are a tiny collection, as there are a smaller percent of cars burning oil like mad. When guys take their cars in for massive oil consumption they get new engines, so there's a real problem there, but the big problem, that truly many cars have from 13-16, is the dirty block. An it's insidious nature make it a total crap shoot for us all. We have guys running 10,000 miles with a perfect car and knock, cough, splat, bearing spun.

Only thing I care about at this point is trying to figure out if this persists into 17 models. We've confirmed it's in 16s, and I'm not considering any 13-16 car, period. If we can find 17s are clean, then I'm in, I think, although I'm so turned of by FCA at this point in how they've handled this, I hate to give them my cash or represent them on the streets.

[Jack B]

We have no way of knowing the number of failures due to low oil. I personally know of one engine that was replaced due to debris, however it was actually due to low oil.

The list (this forum) of debris related eng failures is not that large, if you compare it to all low oil failures (from this forum) and then include those in the list that failed from low oil, it is not a small percentage.




I guess I just don't know where you're getting this info that many engines blow from low oil because owners aren't checking. Low oil engine failures are a tiny collection, as there are a smaller percent of cars burning oil like mad. When guys take their cars in for massive oil consumption they get new engines, so there's a real problem there, but the big problem, that truly many cars have from 13-16, is the dirty block. An it's insidious nature make it a total crap shoot for us all. We have guys running 10,000 miles with a perfect car and knock, cough, splat, bearing spun.

Only thing I care about at this point is trying to figure out if this persists into 17 models. We've confirmed it's in 16s, and I'm not considering any 13-16 car, period. If we can find 17s are clean, then I'm in, I think, although I'm so turned of by FCA at this point in how they've handled this, I hate to give them my cash or represent them on the streets.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

I still think some of these bearings spinning are from low oil. 3000 miles without checking can take 3 qts down and well into the danger zone....3xxx miles seems to be the sweet spot. Nobody will admit low oil out of embarrassment or possible responsibility for repairs. Easy enough to cover up too. Additionally you may not of known you had low oil due to the F'd up dip stick readings.

I think they changed the dipsticks in 2015, didn't they? Either that or mine is easy to read. It does have small increments, but I can read mine.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

I know someone asked this already and I don't know if we can actually get an answer but it would be good to know if cars that spin bearings are using Penzoil 0/40 or Mobil 1. In my 15 TA I've been using Mobil 1 15/50 because that is what Dick Winkles recommended for cars that see the track. I did a track day recently in the car and decided to change the oil today. It only had 1500 miles on it but I figured what the heck. Checked the oil before changing it and it was dead nuts on. Car didn't burn one single drop of oil in 1500 miles which included a track day.

This just reinforces to me that some cars are burning oil for some unknown reason and others don't.

That is why I have had 2 oil changes in 1600 miles. Both times I went with Mobil 1. No issues or oil consumption so far.

[Terminator02]

We have no way of knowing the number of failures due to low oil. I personally know of one engine that was replaced due to debris, however it was actually due to low oil.

The list (this forum) of debris related eng failures is not that large, if you compare it to all low oil failures (from this forum) and then include those in the list that failed from low oil, it is not a small percentage.

That's how I feel too. Dman I may have mistyped a bit as it's easy to take out of context but from what many dealers or people who work at places reported through the numerous threads the "feel" I got from many of them were oil related and probably from owners who just didn't think to be checking their oil on their brand new modern mopar purchase. I'm not knocking people's ability to check oil on this site. But even here some people reported being "X quarts low" and if we are checking the dipstick that wouldn't happen. No way a car leaves the driveway and within a few hours went through X quarts.

[donk_316]

I still think some of these bearings spinning are from low oil. 3000 miles without checking can take 3 qts down and well into the danger zone....3xxx miles seems to be the sweet spot. Nobody will admit low oil out of embarrassment or possible responsibility for repairs. Easy enough to cover up too. Additionally you may not of known you had low oil due to the F'd up dip stick readings.

This is the gold star post of the thread.

I'd bet dollars to donuts the issue is more of people not paying enough attention to their oil levels and then blaming the engine when it pops.

I can hear a difference in my engine when it's 1/2 liter low. Honest to God.

[darbgnik]

This place is like the twilight zone.

Read first post of a thread about a bone stock Viper losing an engine, in the same post it's indicated it is being covered under warranty........... and then the same whining as in every other thread starts.


Go ahead and flame away, because I may be oversimplifying this; Don't have enough change in the couch cushions to cover a new engine replacement? Keep it stock. Can't afford to replace the engine on your own dime after your warranty is up? Buy an extended warranty. Car's too old to add another warranty onto, and still can't afford to replace an engine? Sell it.


Yeah, yeah, it shouldn't happen in the first place, I get it. But it happens to every brand. Obviously not at the same rate as the Gen V, but it does. Nobody is forcing guys to buy one, or keep one, or mod one, for that matter.

Not to sound like I want to pay for my own engine, I don't, but go ahead and try to get a Cummins engine, possibly the engine with the highest durability reputation around, warrantied if there is evidence of ECU programming detected. You won't. I also agree that the Arrow controller should be relatively safe. But playing devils advocate here, but what if, in the 1500 miles the arrow controller was supposedly in the car, half of those miles I actually had another ECU in there instead, running my own tunes, based on my infinite wisdom in the field of tuning, gleaned from the google search bar? Should they still warranty my engine?

Sorry, but it's tiring reading the same posts in a "possible happy ending" thread as those in a "FCA screwed me" thread. Hope your friend get's his car back quick, George!

[Mark1107]

2025420255

Dodge voided the warranty on this bad boy. Arrow controller.

[Pappy]

2025420255

Dodge voided the warranty on this bad boy. Arrow controller.

What was the failure mode/scenario? Some of us are more interested in what's happening to the motors than we are in how FCA is dealing with it.

Pappy

[Mark1107]

Sorry not my car, idk specifics.

[Terminator02]

This place is like the twilight zone.

Read first post of a thread about a bone stock Viper losing an engine, in the same post it's indicated it is being covered under warranty........... and then the same whining as in every other thread starts.


Go ahead and flame away, because I may be oversimplifying this; Don't have enough change in the couch cushions to cover a new engine replacement? Keep it stock. Can't afford to replace the engine on your own dime after your warranty is up? Buy an extended warranty. Car's too old to add another warranty onto, and still can't afford to replace an engine? Sell it.


Yeah, yeah, it shouldn't happen in the first place, I get it. But it happens to every brand. Obviously not at the same rate as the Gen V, but it does. Nobody is forcing guys to buy one, or keep one, or mod one, for that matter.

Not to sound like I want to pay for my own engine, I don't, but go ahead and try to get a Cummins engine, possibly the engine with the highest durability reputation around, warrantied if there is evidence of ECU programming detected. You won't. I also agree that the Arrow controller should be relatively safe. But playing devils advocate here, but what if, in the 1500 miles the arrow controller was supposedly in the car, half of those miles I actually had another ECU in there instead, running my own tunes, based on my infinite wisdom in the field of tuning, gleaned from the google search bar? Should they still warranty my engine?

Sorry, but it's tiring reading the same posts in a "possible happy ending" thread as those in a "FCA screwed me" thread. Hope your friend get's his car back quick, George!

Wow how ironic. The same wining you are complaining about is the same whining coming from the devils advocate side. Yes we've heard this same rhetoric from many people on every failed engine thread. Your response is no more enlightening than mine or anyone else so thanks for the regurgitated recap....

[darbgnik]

Wow how ironic. The same wining you are complaining about is the same whining coming from the devils advocate side. Yes we've heard this same rhetoric from many people on every failed engine thread. Your response is no more enlightening than mine or anyone else so thanks for the regurgitated recap....

I agree that your post is not enlightening, same as mine. ;) But I'm not the one turning a thread, not yet a warranty-bashing one, into one either. The OP's friend's car is getting fixed, under warranty, for free, rather expeditiously, unless I read it wrong. If the car gives anyone that much misery, sell it. I'm not selling mine, yet all I read, are post from owners fretting. If I was as upset as some seem to be, I'd sell it, not complain. At some point, a person has to walk the walk, no?

To be honest, I have no recollection of who was doing any whining, as I usually skim over most posts, looking for any relevant information, but if you took offense to my statement, I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you were one of them, without rereading to make sure. :)

[Terminator02]

I agree that your post is not enlightening, same as mine. ;) But I'm not the one turning a thread, not yet a warranty-bashing one, into one either. The OP's friend's car is getting fixed, under warranty, for free, rather expeditiously, unless I read it wrong. If the car gives anyone that much misery, sell it. I'm not selling mine, yet all I read, are post from owners fretting. If I was as upset as some seem to be, I'd sell it, not complain. At some point, a person has to walk the walk, no?

I agree with this. I'm rather over the whole thing. It's not like I have much to gain either way given my mods. I just wanted to advocate for people that got burned as I truly don't believe the controller had much to play in the bearing failures. Unfortunately, when the controller came out, certain dealers were pitching the mod like it was the next best thing since sliced bread and it really didn't offer much as a standalone and actually it's debatable to any benefit. The costs were definitely not really analyzed now that we see FCA denying warranties. Even said dealers have altered the way the products are sold. So I find that unfortunate as many people will take a dealer installed mod with full confidence and not analyze or research it.

I also am in agreement with you in having to have the means to pay for repairs. I have said that in the past and it was met with some understandable disagreement. However I believe in being able to afford a car and not being able to just "buy it" (if that make sense). However I know some people don't agree with that. I won't buy a car that I can't replace the engine or do major repairs or my ownership experience will be a bit tainted.

My main bone of contention is the current state of the ECU and FCA's stance. In the coming years many many cars will show on dealer lots and people who never heard of r28,r29 and an ECU will purchase said car. If the engine blows and the car had an ecu on it that owner is SOL as it stands today. I would like FCA to be accountable and make sure dealers check for this prior to selling the used car. I don't feel the onus of responsibility should be on unsuspecting potential owners. With FCA not clearly confirming or denying this issue then I feel this will be a recurrent problem for new owners and these forums.

I don't have much dog in the fight as my car doesn't consume oil,has been thoroughly vetted and is moderately modded with the stage ll Arrow build. I am not fretting over potential engine failure but do understand owners concern as it's a relatively high amount of engines that have been replaced given the low production numbers and I venture to say the majority of gen Vs aren't on the forums actively and haven't even hit 2-3k miles and many are at risk of spinning a bearing and it just hasn't happened. So this will just be something to contend with but it's a reason I spend less time on here and more time driving or perusing the SRT jeep forums for more relaxed and civil discussion.

My skin is thick so I don't sweat anything personal online. I wear a constant flame suit called self confidence lol. Cheers.

[darbgnik]

I also agree the Arrow customers are being saddled with an unfair, unexpected, and daunting result after the fact. If not for the fact I hadn't had an excuse to test out my local dealership before this situation arose, I may have been one of them.

But honestly, nobody buys a Viper out of necessity. It's supposed to be a pleasure vehicle. And if the pleasure is gone for the owner, because of this or any issue, really, they should consider selling. Life is too short for unnecessary agravation. Guys like 7th Sign did just that. And I respect that decision.

Now if I did have an ECU installed already, I'd like to think I wouldn't be as bothered as some, because I agree, affording a car is different than buying one, and worrying gets you no further in life. I just take things as they come, good or bad.

Life is really too short, to sweat things, that in the grand scheme of things, don't matter, like cars.

[nx91notch]

How is FCA finding out about the Arrow PCM's?

Are they asking the dealer and dealer just says yes? Are they asking the customer and customers just being honest and saying yes? Is FCA sending their own inspectors out to look over the cars? Are they asking for some sort of vehicle scan report to be sent to them?

[Martin]

How is FCA finding out about the Arrow PCM's?

Are they asking the dealer and dealer just says yes? Are they asking the customer and customers just being honest and saying yes? Is FCA sending their own inspectors out to look over the cars? Are they asking for some sort of vehicle scan report to be sent to them?

I believe there are two places where mileage is stored - somewhere in the dash, and in the PCM. If you switch the PCM, it will rack up miles that the original OEM PCM doesn't record. When they hook up their systems to the OBDII port, they can see a mismatch between the mileage stored in the dash and the mileage stored in the PCM. From there, they ask if the PCM has been changed out. If someone says "yes, I had an Arrow PCM for a while" they're screwed.

I've had PCMs go bad before, and I always had the new PCM programmed with the exact mileage on the dash. Not that it mattered because the cars were all out of warranty - but I wanted to avoid any potential odometer fraud BS if I went to sell the cars.

Perhaps there's a way that people who have used the Arrow PCM can get their OEM PCM to be reprogrammed to exactly match the mileage in the dash. That would seem to be the easiest resolution to some of these issues. I believe this is pretty easy to do - if the OEM PCM goes bad, standard practice is to program it to match the dash mileage (at least on my other Chrysler vehicles it's that way).

[nx91notch]

I believe there are two places where mileage is stored - somewhere in the dash, and in the PCM. If you switch the PCM, it will rack up miles that the original OEM PCM doesn't record. When they hook up their systems to the OBDII port, they can see a mismatch between the mileage stored in the dash and the mileage stored in the PCM. From there, they ask if the PCM has been changed out. If someone says "yes, I had an Arrow PCM for a while" they're screwed.

I've had PCMs go bad before, and I always had the new PCM programmed with the exact mileage on the dash. Not that it mattered because the cars were all out of warranty - but I wanted to avoid any potential odometer fraud BS if I went to sell the cars.

Perhaps there's a way that people who have used the Arrow PCM can get their OEM PCM to be reprogrammed to exactly match the mileage in the dash. That would seem to be the easiest resolution to some of these issues. I believe this is pretty easy to do - if the OEM PCM goes bad, standard practice is to program it to match the dash mileage (at least on my other Chrysler vehicles it's that way).

Yes you are correct. The mileage is stored in the both the PCM and in the IPC (instrument panel cluster). And yes there is a way to check milage in PCM and it will ask you if current mileage is correct. If you hit the no button it lets you update the mileage to what the IPC says.

But somewhere at one time I also thought that in the service history that follows the car from dealer to dealer IF you purchased the Arrow PCM it somehow shows up in that report that the car has been at Viper Exchange even though the car has NEVER been there. If that is the case no matter what you're screwed. I could be wrong on that info as it probably came off second hand off the internet so I don't know if that is true or not.

[ViperJon]

If it was that simple to update the PCM and ODO to match everybody would do it and there would be no discussion about aftermarket PCM's voiding warranties.
I doubt it is and/or it's still detectable.

[Martin]

If it was that simple to update the PCM and ODO to match everybody would do it and there would be no discussion about aftermarket PCM's voiding warranties.
I doubt it is and/or it's still detectable.

You could very well be correct on that. My thinking is that nobody expected this problem, so nobody took any proactive steps to try and avoid it. I know that if I drove my car around for a few hundred miles with the Arrow controller, and then swapped back to the stock PCM, the last thing on my mind would have been to synchronize the two so that mileage matched. The FCA warranty denial issue seemed to come out of far left field and caught everyone by surprise, and it was always after proof was documented that the mileage didn't match.

Personally, I think it is pretty despicable to deny a warranty on an engine that already has documented failures - just because someone bought a different PCM and installed it for a few miles. But, as was said, this isn't the kindler gentler Dodge that we had before FCA took the reigns. I never had any issues with my other Gen II and Gen IV cars when it came to minor modifications and warranty issues, but now, there's no way I'm going to do anything to my Gen V until well after the warranty is up. Just not worth the hassle, and the stock car is just fine in my opinion.

[nx91notch]

Personally, I think it is pretty despicable to deny a warranty on an engine that already has documented failures - just because someone bought a different PCM and installed it for a few miles. .

Right there is exactly why everyone is so upset about this issue.

Most if not all understand that when you add an aftermarket part you play with your warranty to a certain extent. But FCA needs to show that part caused the issue at hand. Add a supercharger or nitrous and blow a rod out the side of the block sure no warranty and I think as a community we accept that fact. But with known issues and recalls and a whole bunch of documented Gen V's that are 100% stock having the issue FCA (in my opinion) has no right to deny the factory warranty with the Arrow PCM installed.

[ZeeViper]

I've got 21k on mine, always check the oil as it burns QUITE a bit. Never had a car burn so much oil. I figured it was something to do with the crank breathing setup. But now all this stuff has me wondering. Seems like it's around a quart every 1k.

Anyone have any input?? I was thinking because it's the end of the season that I would have it looked at.

[Dman]

I've got 21k on mine, always check the oil as it burns QUITE a bit. Never had a car burn so much oil. I figured it was something to do with the crank breathing setup. But now all this stuff has me wondering. Seems like it's around a quart every 1k.

Anyone have any input?? I was thinking because it's the end of the season that I would have it looked at.

If you're burning a at/1,000 miles past breakin, you should definitely take it in. Guys have gotten engines replaced burning about a qt/500-700miles, you're right there. A fully broken in engine should NOT burn a qt/1,000 miles. Think about it, if you were doing normal driving miles with the viper, you'd literally be replacing half your oil in a season, that's a broken engine vs a broken in engine. I think guys burning a Ron of oil are accepting something they shouldn't, if my gen5 burned oil like that, I'd have been relentless about getting it fixed, I've had 4 vipers and none burned more than a half qt in between changes.

[dadeuce]

I've got 21k on mine, always check the oil as it burns QUITE a bit. Never had a car burn so much oil. I figured it was something to do with the crank breathing setup. But now all this stuff has me wondering. Seems like it's around a quart every 1k.

Anyone have any input?? I was thinking because it's the end of the season that I would have it looked at.

Check out the post by Jack B. I think your car would make a great candidate for leak-down test. 21k and burning oil ... something has got to be off there.



I am surprised no one has stated that in the past. It makes one wonder what percentage of the failures are oil related.

What is also strange, the cause of the oil consumption has not been determined. I hate to keep repeating this, PLEASE, someone with an oil consuming car, get a leak-down test, that will help us all.

[swexlin]

Others here have posted (KB I think) that they have heard from the dealer that Dodge considers 1 qt/1000 miles "acceptable" , no matter that we think it is not. They won't do anything about it,

[Spec C]

Had my heart set on scooping up a gen 5 but almost seems like a losing proposition.

[Terminator02]

Others here have posted (KB I think) that they have heard from the dealer that Dodge considers 1 qt/1000 miles "acceptable" , no matter that we think it is not. They won't do anything about it,

Actually FCA came out with a new statement stating a quart every 750 miles is within an acceptable range within the past two months. They have even lowered the threshold. It's ridiculous but again, it points to a systemic problem with many of their performance engines and it's their way of putting the onus of blame onto the owners to prevent or delay some defect from occurring as many engines don't burn anywhere near that amount of oil.

[SRT_BluByU]

I've heard IPC and PCM mileage can be off by some degree from each other straight from the factory... not 100s of miles.. but not matching either.

[ZeeViper]

Yea I agree that it's ridiculous, I was trying to justify it and think maybe it was just the nature of it. My Z06 didn't burn much at all, even with whooped valve guides. Hopefully I can get it replaced :-\

[Dman]

Check out the post by Jack B. I think your car would make a great candidate for leak-down test. 21k and burning oil ... something has got to be off there.

Agreed. I can do a leak down test in no time, any reputable wrencher can do it if the dealer is following some screw the customer strategy about it.
If FCA is now saying a qt/750 miles is acceptable, they're flat out screwing us. I can't think of how anyone could defend that position.

[ViperGeorge]

So to me the question still is "why are some cars burning a quart of oil every 750-1000 miles and others don't burn any?" As I've previously posted 1500 miles on my TA's oil including a hard day at the track. Didn't burn a single ounce. What is the difference between those cars that burn oil and those that don't? A leak down test would certainly be helpful but if it shows excessive leak down, why?

[viperdriver5150]

I try not to look at these threads too much because I prefer to live in denial but how many have failed after both recalls ?

That's what I thought too, what are the chances? LOL Pretty damn good.

[texasram]

I've heard IPC and PCM mileage can be off by some degree from each other straight from the factory... not 100s of miles.. but not matching either.
Yeah mine has an 8 mile difference

[texasram]

So to me the question still is "why are some cars burning a quart of oil every 750-1000 miles and others don't burn any?" As I've previously posted 1500 miles on my TA's oil including a hard day at the track. Didn't burn a single ounce. What is the difference between those cars that burn oil and those that don't? A leak down test would certainly be helpful but if it shows excessive leak down, why?
I promise you if anyone switches to mobile one, this will no longer happen.

[Jack B]

A good tech can some times tell what the issue is from the leak down test. It is not a merely a quality test, it can detect you to the problem. In many cases a stethoscope is used to pinpoint the leakage. You listen from the crankcase, the intake and the exhaust. Just a guess, there are probably tools better than a stethoscope available today.



So to me the question still is "why are some cars burning a quart of oil every 750-1000 miles and others don't burn any?" As I've previously posted 1500 miles on my TA's oil including a hard day at the track. Didn't burn a single ounce. What is the difference between those cars that burn oil and those that don't? A leak down test would certainly be helpful but if it shows excessive leak down, why?

[Terminator02]

I promise you if anyone switches to mobile one, this will no longer happen.

Mine has only seen the factory oil and doesn't burn any oil. I don't plan on switching consequently.

[jaxtk]

SUBJECT: Engine Oil Consumption Guideline
**MODELS: This bulletin applies to all 2012-2016 FCA US LLC vehicles equipped with gasoline engines.**
DISCUSSION: Engines require oil to lubricate and protect the load bearing and internal moving parts from wear including cylinder walls, pistons and piston rings. When a piston moves down its cylinder, a thin film of oil is left on the cylinder wall. During the power stroke, part of this oil layer is consumed in the combustion process. Varying rates of oil consumption are accepted as normal in all engines.
Oil Consumption **The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles listed above is 1 quart (0.946 liter) in 2,000 miles (3,200 km) for the 1st 50,000 miles (80,467 km). For vehicles with more then 50,000 miles (80,467 km) the acceptable oil consumption for engines is 1 quart (0.946 liter) in 750 miles (1,207 km).**
CAUTION: This above rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under warranty, that are driven in a non-aggressive manner and maintained in accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule.

[SRT_BluByU]

I promise you if anyone switches to mobile one, this will no longer happen.

incorrect.. people have tried both.

[Dman]

SUBJECT: Engine Oil Consumption Guideline
**MODELS: This bulletin applies to all 2012-2016 FCA US LLC vehicles equipped with gasoline engines.**
DISCUSSION: Engines require oil to lubricate and protect the load bearing and internal moving parts from wear including cylinder walls, pistons and piston rings. When a piston moves down its cylinder, a thin film of oil is left on the cylinder wall. During the power stroke, part of this oil layer is consumed in the combustion process. Varying rates of oil consumption are accepted as normal in all engines.
Oil Consumption **The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles listed above is 1 quart (0.946 liter) in 2,000 miles (3,200 km) for the 1st 50,000 miles (80,467 km). For vehicles with more then 50,000 miles (80,467 km) the acceptable oil consumption for engines is 1 quart (0.946 liter) in 750 miles (1,207 km).**
CAUTION: This above rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under warranty, that are driven in a non-aggressive manner and maintained in accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule.

There we go. So anyone burning a qt/1,000 miles has a confirmed problem, double the max acceptable consumption, and should go in for resolution, per this FCA literature.

[swexlin]

Yep. And dealers quoting the 1 per 750 are quoting the above 50000 rate, which none of us have that many miles yet. And, IMO, is still excessive for a modern vehicle.

[Space Truckin]

I promise you if anyone switches to mobile one, this will no longer happen.

I switched to Mobil 1 at first oil change, and I am burning a qt. every 1000 miles...hmmm

[AZTVR]

Actually FCA came out with a new statement stating a quart every 750 miles is within an acceptable range within the past two months. They have even lowered the threshold.


SUBJECT: Engine Oil Consumption Guideline
**MODELS: This bulletin applies to all 2012-2016 FCA US LLC vehicles equipped with gasoline engines.**
DISCUSSION: Engines require oil to lubricate and protect the load bearing and internal moving parts from wear including cylinder walls, pistons and piston rings. When a piston moves down its cylinder, a thin film of oil is left on the cylinder wall. During the power stroke, part of this oil layer is consumed in the combustion process. Varying rates of oil consumption are accepted as normal in all engines.
Oil Consumption **The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles listed above is 1 quart (0.946 liter) in 2,000 miles (3,200 km) for the 1st 50,000 miles (80,467 km). For vehicles with more then 50,000 miles (80,467 km) the acceptable oil consumption for engines is 1 quart (0.946 liter) in 750 miles (1,207 km).**
CAUTION: This above rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under warranty, that are driven in a non-aggressive manner and maintained in accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule.



There we go. So anyone burning a qt/1,000 miles has a confirmed problem, double the max acceptable consumption, and should go in for resolution, per this FCA literature.

There we go ????? Two anonymous internet posters saying what someone told them or partially quoting something found on the internet? The statements seem to be contradictory. Yes, it does seem like jaxtk may have quoted a small part of a technical service bulletin (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj8pPCal7vPAhUU1WMKHY2aBWEQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wk2jeeps.com%2Ftsb%2Ftsb_wk2_ 0900715.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGWCFcVecSTbwqRREYa3J8sTaZ-fQ&sig2=rFKLB2I-M24HgMAYmLO5lQ); but, is it superceded as Terminator01 implies it might be ???

Personally, I think that consumption of 1 quart of oil in 1000 miles of casual driving is unacceptable; and I say that with the full force of my years as an Electronics Engineer to back that up.

I would really like someone, anyone, who has that kind of oil consumption rate, please get a leakdown test as Jack B recommended and tell us the results. Also tell us it fails the cylinder leakage limits stated in the factory service manual.

[repiV]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consumption/index.htm

[ViperGeorge]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consumption/index.htm

Interesting article. Thanks for posting.

[Space Truckin]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consumption/index.htm

I have always been in the camp that burning oil after break in (harbinger of other issues) is not good/ normal, not to mention costs associated with adding synthetic oil $$$...:hog:

[Shooter]

Maybe Sergio should rename this last Generation of Viper's...change the the name to VBED. Seems to fit better.




:)

[ViperGeorge]

Update on the blown engine. The dealer has ordered a new engine and all the necessary installation kits (oil cooler, lines, etc.). The dealer took the chance given that Chrysler has still not approved the warranty claim even though it has been two weeks. Dealer still seems confident that the engine will be warrantied. Again the car is a bone stock 2014 TA.

[swexlin]

Update on the blown engine. The dealer has ordered a new engine and all the necessary installation kits (oil cooler, lines, etc.). The dealer took the chance given that Chrysler has still not approved the warranty claim even though it has been two weeks. Dealer still seems confident that the engine will be warrantied. Again the car is a bone stock 2014 TA.

Cool of that dealer to step up.

[zee]

Update on the blown engine. The dealer has ordered a new engine and all the necessary installation kits (oil cooler, lines, etc.). The dealer took the chance given that Chrysler has still not approved the warranty claim even though it has been two weeks. Dealer still seems confident that the engine will be warrantied. Again the car is a bone stock 2014 TA.

What number TA is it? Curious if r28 was issued or just r29.

[AZTVR]

What number TA is it? Curious if r28 was issued or just r29.

Note the OPs original post saying that the car was scheduled to get r28 and r29 done; but, hadn't been done yet

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/15709-Another-blown-engine?p=251436&viewfull=1#post251436

[ViperGeorge]

Note the OPs original post saying that the car was scheduled to get r28 and r29 done; but, hadn't been done yet

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/15709-Another-blown-engine?p=251436&viewfull=1#post251436

Correct, the car was scheduled to get R28 and R29 done the Tuesday after the motor went blewy. Apparently Chrysler is waiting to get the analysis of the filter (R28) before authorizing warranty claim.

[Dman]

Weird. Why wait? Stock car. If it passes R28 are they going to deny it? That would be crazy so what diff does it make.

Nice dealer though, Shame FCA puts them in that position.

[ViperGeorge]

My friend's replacement engine has finally arrived at the dealership and is being installed now. He should have his car back next week. Took close to a month to get FCA to approve the warranty replacement and his car is absolutely bone stock. Dealer was very diligent in following up with and pushing FCA to take action.

On another note, I took my 15 in to get the diff fluid changed (yes, they're using the correct stuff which they had to special order). Spoke to the tech and he was telling me that FCA is looking hard at ALL warranty claims not just those on Vipers. For example, he says FCA is checking the number of times a diesel truck's PCM has been flashed to determine if it has ever had a tune. The techs are also required to take digital pics of everything so that FCA can examine them for anything that might void the warranty. Seems like the bean counters are in control of Chrysler now. That would be the beginning of the end in my view. The thing that made Chrysler special was that it was run by car guys not bean counters. Tragic but I hope someone there says "wait, what the hell are we doing?"

[swexlin]

My friend's replacement engine has finally arrived at the dealership and is being installed now. He should have his car back next week. Took close to a month to get FCA to approve the warranty replacement and his car is absolutely bone stock. Dealer was very diligent in following up with and pushing FCA to take action.

On another note, I took my 15 in to get the diff fluid changed (yes, they're using the correct stuff which they had to special order). Spoke to the tech and he was telling me that FCA is looking hard at ALL warranty claims not just those on Vipers. For example, he says FCA is checking the number of times a diesel truck's PCM has been flashed to determine if it has ever had a tune. The techs are also required to take digital pics of everything so that FCA can examine them for anything that might void the warranty. Seems like the bean counters are in control of Chrysler now. That would be the beginning of the end in my view. The thing that made Chrysler special was that it was run by car guys not bean counters. Tragic but I hope someone there says "wait, what the hell are we doing?"

George, thanks for the update. If FCA is putting the minivan owners through this as well, then there are really going to be complaints. Haven't had an issue with my Ram....yet. Appreciate the follow up, and glad your buddy is getting the new motor.

[ViperGeorge]

One of the other things the tech told me is that when they connect the WiTech 2 to the car it automatically uploads everything that is done to the FCA cloud so they have a record. Of course they use the WiTech for almost everything. He says Witech 1 didn't do that. When they swap PCMs due to a failure they run through a procedure to sync the mileage of the new PCM with the odometer. If you just swap them they won't be in sync and I believe that is what happened to the two guys whose warranties were declined. But then again if the dealer did the swap of the PCMs the mileage would agree but FCA would have a record of the change unless you used a WiTech 1. At least that's what he said.

[donk_316]

The techs are also required to take digital pics of everything so that FCA can examine them for anything that might void the warranty. Seems like the bean counters are in control of Chrysler now. That would be the beginning of the end in my view. The thing that made Chrysler special was that it was run by car guys not bean counters. Tragic but I hope someone there says "wait, what the hell are we doing?"

When my car went in for the yellowing paint on the sills they had to take pictures of the issue, picture of the mileage display and also a 3/4 shot of the entire car before Dodge will even process the warranty claim.
This is being done because of too many dealers running warranty scams and not because of "bean counters at Chrysler"

As usual, a few bad eggs spoil the fun for everyone.

[Dman]

Yea, when I took my '13 in for warranty work like a year or so ago, the service manager had to take pics, several of them, and that was well before we in any kind of warranty coverage fiasco thing, I think it may just be SOP with them, like Donk posted. It was a first for me, but the Mgr said Dodge asked for pics and so .... it all worked out fine, I never had a glitch getting warranty work done, even with my headers on the car, go figure.

[j_dub_168]

Thx Pappy, good points. I just picked up a 2016 ACR-E and I am watching the oil level religiously. I have burned 1 qt since new and I'm at 500 miles now. It seems to have levelled off. I plan to change oil this weekend. Any suggestions on type of oil and filter? The expert FCA tech around here who works on most of the Vipers in the region recommends Mobil 1 0W50 and the stock Mopar filter. He mentioned that start up pressure can be as high as 100 psi and would not suggest any other type of filter... Anyway thx in advance to everyone's suggestions... Cheers

[EZ 2B Green]

There's Mobil 1 0W40 and 15W50. I don't think there is a 0W50.

[J TNT]

There's Mobil 1 0W40 and 15W50. I don't think there is a 0W50.

They do make a 5w50 Mobil 1 ;)

[j_dub_168]

Thanks guys... I stand corrected, 0W40 is correct. Btw, I forgot to ask: diff oil recommendations? I'm planning to change that out too before winter storage... Thx!

[NT-ACR]

Thanks guys... I stand corrected, 0W40 is correct. Btw, I forgot to ask: diff oil recommendations? I'm planning to change that out too before winter storage... Thx!

I'd stick with the stock Castrol SAF-XJ/SAE 75W-140 Synthetic Gear and Axle Lubricant to keep your warranty.

[schulmann]

Regarding the oil consumption in the German cars and Subarus, the problem is related to the manufacturer of the cast aluminum piston. After 10000 -20000 mi the pistons are oval and they don't seal properly the combustion chamber. It is a well identified problem. Interestingly Volkswagen don't have this problem with the 2 TSFI engin. With 200 000 car manufactured with such a defect Audi, BMW and Porsche needed 2 years to identify the source of the oil comsumption (They did in 2012). With only 2000 Vipers sold, it is more difficult to identify the source of the engine problem.

[Garron]

I still think some of these bearings spinning are from low oil. 3000 miles without checking can take 3 qts down and well into the danger zone....3xxx miles seems to be the sweet spot. Nobody will admit low oil out of embarrassment or possible responsibility for repairs. Easy enough to cover up too. Additionally you may not of known you had low oil due to the F'd up dip stick readings.


That stupid dipstick design is probably responsible for several blown engines. I know how to check the oil and it is still a royal pain and I'm never sure if my readings are correct.

I am bumping the comments above. I work at the dealer and check every Gen 5's oil level regardless of what the car comes in for. I can't tell you how many cars had an oil level that did not even show on the dip stick.

[swexlin]

I am bumping the comments above. I work at the dealer and check every Gen 5's oil level regardless of what the car comes in for. I can't tell you how many cars had an oil level that did not even show on the dip stick.

That's scary. Which shows that many Gen 5s are consuming oil, especially considering that many of them are lower miles, and/or not driven that much.

[AZTVR]

Btw, I forgot to ask: diff oil recommendations?

Thread: "FINAL answer on Gen V Viper Differential lubricant" (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/10104-FINAL-answer-on-Gen-V-Viper-Differential-lubricant-plus-a-Gen-IV-tip)

[Garron]

That's scary. Which shows that many Gen 5s are consuming oil, especially considering that many of them are lower miles, and/or not driven that much.


Yes it is, considering most are still on break in the only thing it proves is people are not check oil.

When I ask "how do you check the oil" most do not know how

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Yes it is, considering most are still on break in the only thing it proves is people are not check oil.

When I ask "how do you check the oil" most do not know how

I will have to camp with them... buying a car of this caliber.. heck.. any new car, you should not have to check oil before driving everytime. That's insane and no one is used to that.

[ViperSmith]

I will have to camp with them... buying a car of this caliber.. heck.. any new car, you should not have to check oil before driving everytime. That's insane and no one is used to that.

Exactly

It is an insane expectation

[Coloviper]

Should have just come with a low oil warning sign on the display as a safe guard. Probably a $5.00 solution in the end.

[Garron]

I will have to camp with them... buying a car of this caliber.. heck.. any new car, you should not have to check oil before driving everytime. That's insane and no one is used to that.


Exactly

It is an insane expectation

For those above, I did not say "they did not check the oil every time they drive" I said "They did not know how to check their oil" Big difference

During break-in all vehicles (regardless of make and model) will use oil, always have. It is part of a normal wear in procedure on a new engine.

Out of your owners manual:

BREAK-IN RECOMMENDATIONS


A long break-in period is not required for the drivetrain (engine, transmission, and rear axle) in your new vehicle. Following these few simple guidelines is all that is necessary for a good break-in.

For the first 500 miles (800 km):
•
Keep your vehicle speed below the legal, posted speed limit and your engine speed below 4,000 RPM.

•
Avoid driving at a constant speed, either fast or slow, for long periods.

•
Do not make any full throttle starts and avoid full throttle acceleration.

•
Use the proper gear for your speed range.

•
Wait until the engine has reached normal operating temperature before driving at the recommended maximum break-in speed.

•
Avoid excessive idling.

•
Check the engine oil level at every fuel fill.


NOTE:
A new engine will consume some oil during the first few thousand miles (kilometers) of operation. This should be considered a normal part of the break-in and not interpreted as a sign of difficulty

[AZTVR]

Should have just come with a low oil warning sign on the display as a safe guard. Probably a $5.00 solution in the end.

Easier said than done, I suspect. The oil level sensors that I know about mount in the bottom of the oil pan, taking up volume and exposed to damage, especially on a low car. I'm not sure how that sensor could be accommodated in the Viper oil pan with the swing arm oil pick up in there. If they had known then what we know now perhaps they could have justified the design and manufacturing costs, and the added components with their associated failure modes.

[swexlin]

Always wondered why this new Gen Viper didn't. My 13 Dart had an oil life gauge, and the one in the Ram is really nice. Of course, that is oil life, not level.

[ViperTony]

For those above, I did not say "they did not check the oil every time they drive" I said "They did not know how to check their oil" Big difference

During break-in all vehicles (regardless of make and model) will use oil, always have. It is part of a normal wear in procedure on a new engine.

Out of your owners manual:

BREAK-IN RECOMMENDATIONS


A long break-in period is not required for the drivetrain (engine, transmission, and rear axle) in your new vehicle. Following these few simple guidelines is all that is necessary for a good break-in.

For the first 500 miles (800 km):
•
Keep your vehicle speed below the legal, posted speed limit and your engine speed below 4,000 RPM.

•
Avoid driving at a constant speed, either fast or slow, for long periods.

•
Do not make any full throttle starts and avoid full throttle acceleration.

•
Use the proper gear for your speed range.

•
Wait until the engine has reached normal operating temperature before driving at the recommended maximum break-in speed.

•
Avoid excessive idling.

•
Check the engine oil level at every fuel fill.


NOTE:
A new engine will consume some oil during the first few thousand miles (kilometers) of operation. This should be considered a normal part of the break-in and not interpreted as a sign of difficulty

Yep, reading comprehension goes a long way.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Always wondered why this new Gen Viper didn't. My 13 Dart had an oil life gauge, and the one in the Ram is really nice. Of course, that is oil life, not level.

Correct me if I'm wrong but those life meters are based on an algorithm that takes into account miles and speeds, not actual oil consistency or viscosity. It does not do any live sampling of contaminants either so it wouldn't help.

[Dr.Ron]

Correct me if I'm wrong but those life meters are based on an algorithm that takes into account miles and speeds, not actual oil consistency or viscosity. It does not do any live sampling of contaminants either so it wouldn't help.

I believe you're correct.

Ron

[swexlin]

Correct me if I'm wrong but those life meters are based on an algorithm that takes into account miles and speeds, not actual oil consistency or viscosity. It does not do any live sampling of contaminants either so it wouldn't help.

Correct, but it is a guide, at least. I change the oil way before the meter says I should.

[Policy Limits]

Yep, reading comprehension goes a long way.

Finally get the avatar. Tony Van Halen! Epic! Jon Bon Jovi ordered an early model GTS I believe.

In continuity of the hard Rock theme, I saw Dee from twisted sister on a show with his Tesla. No oil problems there. Hahaha

[Angleiron]

For those above, I did not say "they did not check the oil every time they drive" I said "They did not know how to check their oil" Big difference

If they do not know how to check the oil then they are are not checking it...it is the same thing. It is hard to believe that if you are just driving on the street and you are a quart or two low that a bearing issue will occur! Growing up my friends and I had beaters that would go through oil every week...some more than others. Had a buddy who drove 300 miles on his car, and after that when he checked his oil the dipstick was dry. We pulled the plug on the pan and he was lucky there was a quart of oil that came out. He topped it off and that car lasted another 2 years before he sold it...never burned anymore oil after that then it did before.

The tell of the tale will be how the engines in the 17's hold up. I can't buy into being a quart or two low causing a spun bearing if you are just driving on the street...track yes...but not for normal street driving.

[ViperTony]

finally get the avatar. Tony van halen! Epic! Jon bon jovi ordered an early model gts i believe.

In continuity of the hard rock theme, i saw dee from twisted sister on a show with his tesla. No oil problems there. Hahaha

lmao

[Coloviper]

Always wondered why this new Gen Viper didn't. My 13 Dart had an oil life gauge, and the one in the Ram is really nice. Of course, that is oil life, not level.

Yah, those oil life alerts are pretty useless in my mind. In reality it is mileage driven and actual use during that mileage driven that should dictate the oil change to me anyway. As far as the Oil Level warning, it is a simple level sensor. No reason to overthink it. Of course that can be added rather easily if you want it at design, but remember the Viper's spirit is a no nanny car. Oil warning lights are for dummies or non-enthusiast, right? I get it but if you bought your brand new Viper on the East coast and to break it in, you drove cross country to the West coast, all while using up 3+ quarts of oil in a few days, that is a little crazy for a modern car. This is not an old 426 Hemi or 427SOHC motor. Now an enthusiast would be checking it at every fuel fill up, but when you do that drive over a couple of days, in a brand new car, I seriously doubt anyone would really "expect it" to drink like that. I think, in this day and age where oil level lights are on most everything built, it is an oversight not to have it on the Viper. As well, while no one has really said anything, I am still convinced that the new non-Mobil Oil selection from the factory is not up to par with the previous Mobil 1 in every generation before it, but that is my conspiracy theory mind today.

In the end, I still feel there is something else at play here, more so that low oil. But that is a gut feeling. Wish I had a GEN V, so at least I had something to really worry about.

[j_dub_168]

If you think about it, this engine is the largest displacement production engine out there making the most NA torque. It is obviously a special beast and I'm happy to have a bit more responsibility in taking care of it as opposed to relying on lights or sensors or algorithms...

When you have a hot date, you kind of expect her to be high maintenance but isn't it worth it in the end? Think of all those Ferraris out there where you have to take the engine out just to do the 10000 mile service... Our motors are pretty simple in comparison... Just sayin...