Dyno d the car today interesting results

[SNK3BIT]

2013 Viper GTS with ARH long tubes, hi flow cats, Corsa catback exhaust, underdrive pulley, and Arrow PCM. Car made 552 WHP and 517 WTQ.


Same shop had a bone stock 2014 Viper TA in a few months ago and showed me the file on it....the stock TA made 475whp. Go figure......




https://youtu.be/yC5xV8tvJqM

[ViperGeorge]

With a 15% loss that would be 649 at the crank. I would have thought with those mods it would have been higher.

[uberpube]

It would make a gazillion horsepower on a Dynojet.... Oh it is a Dynojet, you'd make a 127 rwhp on a Dyno dynamics..:smilielol:

[SNK3BIT]

With a 15% loss that would be 649 at the crank. I would have thought with those mods it would have been higher.

I agree....however a stock 2014 Viper TA made 475 at the wheels.....either Dodge is lying about 640HP factory output or the dyno reads low.

Tuner said that cars that make 550ish at the wheels at his shop run mid/high 10s at 130-132.

[Rare Snake]

Damn. I'm hitting the dyno this Saturday, I was really hoping to see 530-540 on my stock '14 GTS, but maybe not if these are the numbers with mods. :/

Also SNK3BIT, I haven't ignored your request for more pics...I'm always on the forums at work and I have no pics here. lol

[edc]

Damn. I'm hitting the dyno this Saturday, I was really hoping to see 530-540 on my stock '14 GTS, but maybe not if these are the numbers with mods. :/

Also SNK3BIT, I haven't ignored your request for more pics...I'm always on the forums at work and I have no pics here. lol


I think his stock numbers are the lowest ever posted? ;) But if you ignore the low numbers and just compare the differences, 77rwhp for those mods isn't too far out of line... 60rwhp for headers and Arrow + ~10 for the pulley...etc

[Steve M]

What were the temps in the shop? Did you note the IATs during the pulls?

[uberpube]

What were the temps in the shop? Did you note the IATs during the pulls?
That doesn't matter with SAE correction on the dyno.

[Steve M]

That doesn't matter with SAE correction on the dyno.

SAE correction won't factor in how much timing the PCM may be pulling if the temps were high.

[1.8t]

It most certainly does as the ECU pulls timing as IAT's climb. SAE corrections account for atmospheric conditions, but not for the influence of those atmospheric conditions on the ECU.

[uberpube]

If you are looking for 50 rwhp in intake air temp correction timing, not gonna happen.

[Steve M]

If you are looking for 50 rwhp in intake air temp correction timing, not gonna happen.

You sure? http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14166-Full-Bolt-on-Viper-with-Arrow-tune-bs-Torrie-McPhail-s-HP-tuners?highlight=arrow+dyno

[uberpube]

Are you trying to say all they changed was the IAT vs Timing table to achieve the gains? I'd like to see what the factory IAT vs timing adjustments are if you have them. Its actually an interesting discussion as to what the dyno sees for correction, we have to assume the the IAT vs timing table to set to achieve a cylinder pressure supported by the fuel.

[LmeaViper]

I agree....however a stock 2014 Viper TA made 475 at the wheels.....either Dodge is lying about 640HP factory output or the dyno reads low.

Tuner said that cars that make 550ish at the wheels at his shop run mid/high 10s at 130-132.

I seriously wouldn't worry about the you should have gotten X numbers, as dyno's numbers vary a lot for a number of reasons. For starters, tell us about how the additional power feels and then see if anyone has a stock one around you to compare against. If you are around me, I am game for a comparison.

[Stealth]

1/4 mile trap speed would also be good to know.

[racegate]

I would not worry about the dyno numbers. 475whp on the stock TA --> 550whp on your car is what I would focus on.

Get the car to a track or run it on a PBOX and I'm sure you'll find its performing well.

[98intrigue]

I would not worry about the dyno numbers. 475whp on the stock TA --> 550whp on your car is what I would focus on.

Get the car to a track or run it on a PBOX and I'm sure you'll find its performing well.

100%. All dynos are different. My car made 508whp stock and 571whp with UD pulley, Belanger headers and exhaust, and Arrow PCM. I'll be racing the car at FL2K to see how it does.

[Jack B]

You really have to use the search function before making misleading comments, the stock PCM kills the hp when the IAT's get into the 90's. Even the Arrow PCM pulls significant timing, an HPT tuned car can do better.



If you are looking for 50 rwhp in intake air temp correction timing, not gonna happen.

[Steve M]

Are you trying to say all they changed was the IAT vs Timing table to achieve the gains? I'd like to see what the factory IAT vs timing adjustments are if you have them. Its actually an interesting discussion as to what the dyno sees for correction, we have to assume the the IAT vs timing table to set to achieve a cylinder pressure supported by the fuel.

This is the stock IAT timing modifier:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20IAT%20Timing%20Table_zpswj9kobim.jpg

Keep in mind that there is a linear interpolation between points in that table, so anything warmer than 77°F and it will start pulling timing (1° at 80°, 2° at 83°). On the Gen 4 and 5 Vipers, if the PCM pulls timing, it also adds fuel using a multiplier based on load and RPM. Less timing plus more fuel is not a good combo for a high dyno number.

At this point, I'm not trying to say anything about the results in the first post...without the IATs and/or AFR, it's too hard to tell if that dyno just reads low or if the PCM is stepping in due to high IATs. If the conditions were good, the dyno probably reads low.

[Rocket]

Is it the tune/conditions or a low Dynojet reading? My impression has always been that Dynojet's seem to show lower numbers overall?

[SNK3BIT]

You sure? http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14166-Full-Bolt-on-Viper-with-Arrow-tune-bs-Torrie-McPhail-s-HP-tuners?highlight=arrow+dyno


UHHH.....HOLY CRAP!!! I MAY BE GOING BACK FOR A CUSTOM TUNE.....LIKE TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!!



I would not worry about the dyno numbers. 475whp on the stock TA --> 550whp on your car is what I would focus on.

Get the car to a track or run it on a PBOX and I'm sure you'll find its performing well.

AGREED......the massive difference means the mods are working like they should and could just be the dyno.....oh and whats a PBOX?


You really have to use the search function before making misleading comments, the stock PCM kills the hp when the IAT's get into the 90's. Even the Arrow PCM pulls significant timing, an HPT tuned car can do better.

Can the ARROW pcm be tuned or should i reinstall the stock pcm and have them tune it? Does it require unlocking etc?



Damn. I'm hitting the dyno this Saturday, I was really hoping to see 530-540 on my stock '14 GTS, but maybe not if these are the numbers with mods. :/

Also SNK3BIT, I haven't ignored your request for more pics...I'm always on the forums at work and I have no pics here. lol

that color scheme is badass


I think his stock numbers are the lowest ever posted? ;) But if you ignore the low numbers and just compare the differences, 77rwhp for those mods isn't too far out of line... 60rwhp for headers and Arrow + ~10 for the pulley...etc

ditto


What were the temps in the shop? Did you note the IATs during the pulls?

temps in the shop ranged from hot to stupid hot....it was noon in florida if that helps.

[SNK3BIT]

For easier viewing....this guys first runs were almost identical to mine.....after custom tune he picked up a ton of power.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

IAT can be 60+ degrees F over ambient at idle heat soak... Timing is pulled at 77 degrees F. This is why the intake heat shield was developed.

20205

[SNK3BIT]

IAT can be 60+ degrees F over ambient at idle heat soak... Timing is pulled at 77 degrees F. This is why the intake heat shield was developed.

20205

I have a DSE heat shield too....gold foil wrapped

[uberpube]

IAT can be 60+ degrees F over ambient at idle heat soak... Timing is pulled at 77 degrees F. This is why the intake heat shield was developed.

20205
That having that much affect would depend on the dynocell fan setup, or lack of it. OP would have to detail that.


This is the stock IAT timing modifier:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20IAT%20Timing%20Table_zpswj9kobim.jpg

Keep in mind that there is a linear interpolation between points in that table, so anything warmer than 77°F and it will start pulling timing (1° at 80°, 2° at 83°). On the Gen 4 and 5 Vipers, if the PCM pulls timing, it also adds fuel using a multiplier based on load and RPM. Less timing plus more fuel is not a good combo for a high dyno number.

At this point, I'm not trying to say anything about the results in the first post...without the IATs and/or AFR, it's too hard to tell if that dyno just reads low or if the PCM is stepping in due to high IATs. If the conditions were good, the dyno probably reads low.
Also remember the dyno corrects the raw number higher with warmer temperatures, the question is does the correction of the dyno of the raw number upward match the power loss from the reduced timing, which I think it does as the J1349 correction factor is from standard conditions of 77 deg, right where the IAT tables start. I can tell you this with certainty , on a given day, every efi mopar I have dyno'd has registered more power as the vehicle got warmer and then plateaus . I attribute that the fluids warming up and less loss as oil gets hot, you'd think with the engine and then the intake getting hotter with engine temp it would fall, but it doesn't. I found that out playing with the diablo trinity on the jeep, to test its tunes I had to do runs each time till it plateaued continually.
Dynojets are calibrated to the dynojet standard,a dynojet that is reading inconsistent to other dynojets, is a broken dynojet.

[Jack B]

QUOTE:
"Can the ARROW pcm be tuned or should i reinstall the stock pcm and have them tune it? Does it require unlocking etc?"

There is nothing wrong with the Arrow PCM, it is a single tune that fits multiple driving styles and environmental conditions. The timing is pulled to protect the engine for track applications, The dragstrip or dyno are a bit different and you see higher/temporary IAT's. This is one reason the G5 runs so good in the cooler weather, it is not all about air density.

Several of us used HPT and were very successful with our tunes. It is extremely easy to remove/adjust some of the pulled timing. You cannot tune the Arrow pcm, you would have to go back to the stock pcm and install the tune in that pcm. That is pretty easy, you just have to determine who will do the tune. I now have an Arrow pcm and the one thing I do not like is the way it pulls timing as the IAT goes up.

[SNK3BIT]

That having that much affect would depend on the dynocell fan setup, or lack of it. OP would have to detail that.


Also remember the dyno corrects the raw number higher with warmer temperatures, the question is does the correction of the dyno of the raw number upward match the power loss from the reduced timing, which I think it does as the J1349 correction factor is from standard conditions of 77 deg, right where the IAT tables start. I can tell you this with certainty , on a given day, every efi mopar I have dyno'd has registered more power as the vehicle got warmer and then plateaus . I attribute that the fluids warming up and less loss as oil gets hot, you'd think with the engine and then the intake getting hotter with engine temp it would fall, but it doesn't. I found that out playing with the diablo trinity on the jeep, to test its tunes I had to do runs each time till it plateaued continually.
Dynojets are calibrated to the dynojet standard,a dynojet that is reading inconsistent to other dynojets, is a broken dynojet.

Im thinking the dyno is right on and Im under tuned.


QUOTE:
"Can the ARROW pcm be tuned or should i reinstall the stock pcm and have them tune it? Does it require unlocking etc?"

There is nothing wrong with the Arrow PCM, it is a single tune that fits multiple driving styles and environmental conditions. The timing is pulled to protect the engine for track applications, The dragstrip or dyno are a bit different and you see higher/temporary IAT's. This is one reason the G5 runs so good in the cooler weather, it is not all about air density.

Several of us used HPT and were very successful with our tunes. It is extremely easy to remove/adjust some of the pulled timing. You cannot tune the Arrow pcm, you would have to go back to the stock pcm and install the tune in that pcm. That is pretty easy, you just have to determine who will do the tune. I now have an Arrow pcm and the one thing I do not like is the way it pulls timing as the IAT goes up.


So you agree the ARROW pcm is withholding power? I dont track my car....its a street car and i may visit the 1/4 mile track one day....thats about it.

[Jack B]

Leave it as is, the IAT issue is temporary, as soon as you are up to speed, the IAT will come down. When you dyno, watch/record the IAT and try to control the IAT's by picking a cool day and let the car cool down, prior to the first pull.

If you are running hard in 90 deg temps you want that protection

[mjorgensen]

100%. All dynos are different. My car made 508whp stock and 571whp with UD pulley, Belanger headers and exhaust, and Arrow PCM. I'll be racing the car at FL2K to see how it does.

Out of the 150+ G5's we have done these numbers are about the baseline we see on all healthy cars. We have seen 470's but those cars needed a PCM update or had other mechanical problems we did not know of at the time, now maybe they make sense....

[uberpube]

If it's any consolation, my srt10ram did 360 stock, 404 tuned on my dynojet.

[SNK3BIT]

Turns out Torrie McPhail lives right here in St Augustine with me.....he will be tuning my car on the exact same dyno in about a week or two (as soon as he is free). I will post up numbers asap.

Again this will Torrie vs Arrow tune on the SAME DYNO AT THE SAME SHOP. Results coming soon......

[v10tt]

Keep us posted!

[Belobog]

Try to get a record of the intake temperature at the start and end of each run. You can see it on the dash or in the SRT app on the console.

[SNK3BIT]

looking like its gonna be next week.....

[98intrigue]

Bring that car down to FL2K if you get it tuned in time. I'd love to run you to see Arrow vs HP.

[SNK3BIT]

Bring that car down to FL2K if you get it tuned in time. I'd love to run you to see Arrow vs HP.

Im going to try and make it to FL2K....but if not i will be showing comparing dyno sheets on this thread....stay tuned im not going anywhere.

[socal]

Has torrie figured out how to replicate the Arrow deceleration burble?

[SNK3BIT]

From what I'm hearing the decel pop will be gone

[98intrigue]

Im going to try and make it to FL2K....but if not i will be showing comparing dyno sheets on this thread....stay tuned im not going anywhere.

Looking forward to it either way. Good luck!

[texasram]

With a 15% loss that would be 649 at the crank. I would have thought with those mods it would have been higher.
So basically 4k for 9 more horses

[dethred]

Turns out Torrie McPhail lives right here in St Augustine with me.....he will be tuning my car on the exact same dyno in about a week or two (as soon as he is free). I will post up numbers asap.

Again this will Torrie vs Arrow tune on the SAME DYNO AT THE SAME SHOP. Results coming soon......

Please do it when temperatures are below 77*, otherwise it's basically pointless to compare.

[edc]

So basically 4k for 9 more horses


That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.

[texasram]

That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.

Thats the total retail price for all those mods, and ofcourse you know they make 640 at the crank stock

[Jack B]

That is easy with hpt





Has torrie figured out how to replicate the Arrow deceleration burble?

[Steve M]

From what I'm hearing the decel pop will be gone

Decel pop will not be gone...if left stock, it will be greatly reduced, but if someone submits a request to HPT to add cam angle idle control for the Gen 5s like they did for the Gen 4s:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Cam%20Idle%20Control_zps8y1ihjwo.png

Then you can dial in more decel burble since that cam angle affects both idle and decel. There is a limit to how far you can set it (if you go too far, the car will die when pushing in the clutch coming to a stop), and you'll never get it to lope at idle, but it does impact the volume of exhaust popping.

[donk_316]

Wait... I thought you couldn't keep the burble with a solid cam conversion?

[Steve M]

Wait... I thought you couldn't keep the burble with a solid cam conversion?

The burble would be fixed at that point...you can increase/decrease the amount of decel burble with the stock cam by varying the exhaust cam lobe angle under decel. If you can no longer adjust the cam, then you can't adjust the amount of popping.

[Jack B]

I an tell you this, my car was the an early Stage II Arrow car (second one done by Woodhouse). I also had all of the subsequent flashes (firmware updates) done and the deacel pop is about as much as you can tolerate. I personally like the sound, however, it very obvious.
.
Different issue, with my G2 and SCT, I added a noticeable pop to the deacel by adding fuel to the deacel cutoff rpm/cycle.


The burble would be fixed at that point...you can increase/decrease the amount of decel burble with the stock cam by varying the exhaust cam lobe angle under decel. If you can no longer adjust the cam, then you can't adjust the amount of popping.

[SNK3BIT]

Please do it when temperatures are below 77*, otherwise it's basically pointless to compare.

no its not....it will most likely be in mid 80s outside.....if you guys want to protect your motor and are afraid to add timing when its hot because of detonation then why not just add octane instead? Keep your horsepower on tap at all times with some extra octane.

[Strykerviper2014]

I made t 603 whp with 1 7/8 ARH/ exhaust/no cats, UD pulley, K&N intakes ,91 octane with torrie tune on a dyno jet

[texasram]

After the night out with the viper last night i cant imagine needing more power than stock.:dude3:

[Belobog]

no its not....it will most likely be in mid 80s outside.....if you guys want to protect your motor and are afraid to add timing when its hot because of detonation then why not just add octane instead? Keep your horsepower on tap at all times with some extra octane.

I think he was hoping to see the difference between HPT and Arrow when the ECU isn't pulling timing and adding fuel because of intake temperature. We already know that the HPT tune with the IAT table edited will be high power than Arrow as the temperature goes over 77°.

[SNK3BIT]

I think he was hoping to see the difference between HPT and Arrow when the ECU isn't pulling timing and adding fuel because of intake temperature. We already know that the HPT tune with the IAT table edited will be high power than Arrow as the temperature goes over 77°.

Well it's Florida....it will definitely be over 77 degrees

[SNK3BIT]

I made t 603 whp with 1 7/8 ARH/ exhaust/no cats, UD pulley, K&N intakes ,91 octane with torrie tune on a dyno jet


Have you ran at the track yet? Wondering how quick 603whp is.

[Rare Snake]

I suck at posting pics in here for some reason. I had my dyno day on Oct 5 up here in Canada. Temp works about to about 68 degrees, 700 elevation.

Bone stock 14 GTS with 15K miles: 591hp, 550tq. I'm happy with that!

[donk_316]

I an tell you this, my car was the an early Stage II Arrow car (second one done by Woodhouse). I also had all of the subsequent flashes (firmware updates) done and the deacel pop is about as much as you can tolerate. I personally like the sound, however, it very obvious.
.
Different issue, with my G2 and SCT, I added a noticeable pop to the deacel by adding fuel to the deacel cutoff rpm/cycle.

Hey Jack,
So you're saying the decel burble is now included with the stage 2 flash? Comparable to the stage 1 burble?
Man I'm sure Andy and some other dude was saying it was impossible to do with the fixed cam conversion.

[SNK3BIT]

I suck at posting pics in here for some reason. I had my dyno day on Oct 5 up here in Canada. Temp works about to about 68 degrees, 700 elevation.

Bone stock 14 GTS with 15K miles: 591hp, 550tq. I'm happy with that!

Good numbers! Obviously the IAT is the main reason for the numbers.

[donk_316]

It's plus 3 here today and I drove my car to the storage facility. IAT was 12 degrees... haha! It was like someone bolted on 100hp over night.

[Jack B]

All I am saying is my car with the most recent flash has the pop on deaccel and always has the dramatic cam sound. My car has corsa and Belangers. Sound is subjective, however, heads always turn when the car starts. The pop on deaccel comes from a fuel adjustment, not cam.



Hey Jack,
So you're saying the decel burble is now included with the stage 2 flash? Comparable to the stage 1 burble?
Man I'm sure Andy and some other dude was saying it was impossible to do with the fixed cam conversion.

[outnumbered]

Turns out Torrie McPhail lives right here in St Augustine with me.....he will be tuning my car on the exact same dyno in about a week or two (as soon as he is free). I will post up numbers asap.

Again this will Torrie vs Arrow tune on the SAME DYNO AT THE SAME SHOP. Results coming soon......

It will be interesting to see if your results are similar to mine.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/13854-Stock-Arrow-Torrie?highlight=Arrow

[Arizona Vipers]

583 hp/ 555 ft/lbs for me on a DynoJet a couple days ago. That was my best out of three runs.
'13, ARH, Viper Exchange titanium exhaust no cats, 97* ambient temp.

[donk_316]

That's approx 670hp which sounds dead on for mods

[SNK3BIT]

Ok Hurricane Matthew is gone and we finally dynoed the car today.....heres the results.


Stock PCM 540 WHP and 503 WTQ.

Arrow PCM 552 WHP and 517 WTQ.

Torrie Tuned PCM 590 WHP and 547 WTQ.


The car is much more powerful based on neck G-force Lol. First gear is totally useless unless you want to go sideways. Big thumbs up to Unleashed Tuning and Torrie.

[NT-ACR]

Ok Hurricane Matthew is gone and we finally dynoed the car today.....heres the results.


Stock PCM 540 WHP and 503 WTQ.

Arrow PCM 552 WHP and 517 WTQ.

Torrie Tuned PCM 590 WHP and 547 WTQ.


The car is much more powerful. First gear is totally useless unless you want to go sideways. Big thumbs up to Unleashed Tuning and Torrie.

Very nice numbers! Torrie is awesome. Used him for my Ford GT and couldn't recommend him more. Nice to see him branching out to Vipers.

[v10tt]

Great numbers, all numbers are SAE corrected according to Torrie.
Post graphs when you get them, the mid-range gains are probably higher.

[SNK3BIT]

Heres what he sent me...

[racegate]

Damn. Those are significant gains. Nice.

[98intrigue]

This looks like a consistent trend... I may have to ditch my Arrow PCM before the colder weather gets here and see what my car can do.

[v10tt]

The top end after the new tune from 6k to 6.8k rpms is most noticeable on a street pull.


Heres what he sent me...

[texasram]

583 hp/ 555 ft/lbs for me on a DynoJet a couple days ago. That was my best out of three runs.
'13, ARH, Viper Exchange titanium exhaust no cats, 97* ambient temp. Its crazy how restricted these engines are out of the box, imagine this with cai,tune,heads and cam and then you have pretty much unlocked all the horsepower from our engine, Thats atleast 150 over stock with just bolt ons

[outnumbered]

Ok Hurricane Matthew is gone and we finally dynoed the car today.....heres the results.


Stock PCM 540 WHP and 503 WTQ.

Arrow PCM 552 WHP and 517 WTQ.

Torrie Tuned PCM 590 WHP and 547 WTQ.


The car is much more powerful based on neck G-force Lol. First gear is totally useless unless you want to go sideways. Big thumbs up to Unleashed Tuning and Torrie.

Nice...Our numbers are almost identical.