Viper Raffles?

[Angleiron]

Why are there no more Viper raffles where all of the members can get a chance to win a new car? Just curious...

[01sapphirebob]

The VOA doesnt need to do Raffles. The raffles that the VCA did (while at first im sure were a benefit to the members) turned into a revenue source for the club. The VOA was set up to run with out the need for a raffle. Plus, i dont believe there is a way to legally hold these raffles. The VOA does however provde a doorprive at our NVE events of a brand new viper.

[Angleiron]

The VOA doesnt need to do Raffles. The raffles that the VCA did (while at first im sure were a benefit to the members) turned into a revenue source for the club. The VOA was set up to run with out the need for a raffle. Plus, i dont believe there is a way to legally hold these raffles. The VOA does however provde a doorprive at our NVE events of a brand new viper.

Only people who can attend the NVE get this opportunity...and not everyone can do this which limits the club as a whole. Say what you will about the old club but at least everyone who wanted a chance to win a new car had the opportunity to win the car. This should not be about having to do it for money. Just saying

[BlknBlu]

Who won cars over there the last 2 years, they did not get enough interest to actually award the cars.

Bruce

[ViperTony]

I'm sure that once the VOA is legally able to hold raffles they will do so. Remember, the VOA is only in it's 3rd year of existence as an entity. I believe the rule is 5 years to be legally eligible to hold raffles. This was discussed on the forums ad nausea during NVE1.

[SmoknTires]

What the guys said above is correct, this is often done to earn money for a club and the VOA hasn't needed to do it for that reason. However, the VOA actually did look into this (both in the past and somewhat recently), and based on extensive research, two different attorneys we hired stated that a raffle cannot be done legally. We even hired folks from different states who specialize in this. They even looked at specific examples of raffles being conducted actively which we provided to them, they looked into it and came back with the same caution. We'd like to do it simply as a member benefit, and the VOA indeed has the member numbers to actually clear the cost of the car and award one by selling enough tickets (rather than going to a 50/50 which just pisses people off), however we can't risk anything with the club over this - we're told it's just not legal regardless of how we may do it. There's not trick to it, and it's actually not tied to time. The problem isn't in how you do the raffle or how long you're in business, it's simply the fact that you're subject to many jurisdictions and laws when you sell countrywide, a raffle is a form of gambling and there's no way to do it easily and not be exposed if someone decides to make an example of you.

On a different note, the doorprize car for NVE is merely that, much like a trinket you get in a goodie bag, as a "gift" for attending an event. It can be done if you give it away as part of the cost of attending an event. I will also mention, despite things published on VCA's own website stating that the VOA is earning money on that (and providing specific $ amounts), it's of course completely INCORRECT. The doorprize is a pass through cost, 100% of it's cost is carried by the event and not a dime is made on it, I'd like to clear that up while we're on the topic - as some of our own members are misled by things posted about us. I don't know why we continue to be a topic of discussion and criticism (even recently) on their forums by their own officers and directors over 2 1/2 later, but we stay quiet simply because it's not worth acknowledging. We've asked their leadership to discontinue to discuss us, and remove erroneous information/attacks about our club from their public forums. We even offered a peace treaty so that neither club posts anything about the other - pretty simple - but they refused. Nothing more we can do, we've simply moved on. We still follow our own advice and take the high ground, people even posted public court documents on our forums about the big lawsuit the VCA recently lost after their VOI, we removed it as we want no part in discussion about them. Just needs to end.

This is why we take care in managing our business as best we can, and avoid risks we don't need to take. As a recent example of why we need to be diligent, we even had someone try to derail NVE's doorprize by placing an "anonymous" call to the local police telling them we had an "illegal raffle" happening at NVE... Amazing. They reviewed what we were doing, and actually stood there to be sure every technicality was followed, and of course deemed it legal... It's the world we live in. But at least it demonstrates we pass scrutiny because we do our homework.

So Angleiron, we'd love to, just can't! : )

[AZTVR]

but we stay quiet simply because it's not worth acknowledging.

LOL. Well, looks like not "too" quiet. :D

As a non-member, it had been nice to have this type of he said, she said being absent from this forum, and letting the other one die out with its own sniffling.
But, it is interesting to have a club officer here bring it back up.

[City]

Actually, it was a club member rather than a club officer that brought it up. Without the initial post, you'd have your "quiet".

[Rocket]

You want quiet .... go to the other site .... :witless:

Thanks for the clarification on the raffles once again. If there was any way to do one, I'm sure it would be a success and a great way to raise money for a good charity.

[XSnake]

You want quiet .... go to the other site .... :witless:



:smilielol: :owned:

[Coloviper]

To the OPs original request, can we not just overfund the membership (create a Supersnake membership or something) and one of the benefits is the club just happens to give away a new Viper to a Supersnake member free of charge. Doesn't have to be a raffle. Or raise the memberships by $100 and all members get a single equal chance at a VOA edition new Viper to be given away by the club. Surely there are ways around this as opposed to a raffle per say. Just thinking!

As far as the old club, no sense in talking about that. They still send me a birthday card even though I have not been a member for 4 years.

[SmoknTires]

Thanks Colo. We've looked at many variations unfortunately, not much luck.

On the flipside, I'll say this only because I witness this often and it creates some challenges. Doing something to "everyone" (like raising membership dues for a car raffle) would have a hard time flying - as to make a few happy, you'll piss off the majority who may not agree. And since middle ground isn't an option and it has to go one way or the other - it'll polarize folks as the whole group will never agree on one direction.

Making a special member level for a shot at winning a car would indeed at least separate people out and allow people to opt in by will, however, now you'll have a harder time clearing the cost of the car because people can't buy more than one shot at it... you can do the math to see how many people would have to buy a single shot, you'd need well over 65% of the club to do so. And if you let them buy more chances, it's a raffle.

I know it's hard to describe the detail that went into looking at it (and it costs money to get legal representation who will research, and then stand behind, their decision). But certainly welcome someone taking another shot at it. If someone is an attorney, or knows one and wouldn't mind getting deep into the issue, that would be big time welcome.

[Vprbite]

I'm sure if the club could, it would.

Raising membership prices to pay for it would honk a lot of people off, and I believe you would lose members due to it. Many of those who leave would do so out of principle

I would imagine one of the key issues we have with a raffle would be the interstate thing. Anything involving money and different states gets sticky. Throw in "games of chance", particularly one where someone can effect the odds buy buying more tickets and you have a legal hornets nest.

[1ststrike]

You Don't need a chance in a raffle of a car to be in a great club. Just take advantage of all it has to offer. That's the reward!

[daytonprowler]

You Don't need a chance in a raffle of a car to be in a great club. Just take advantage of all it has to offer. That's the reward!

Bingo! :)

[fuggles]

fwiw bmwcca holds a huge car raffle every year where they raffle off a half dozen cars or so. i doubt they are doing it illegally.

[ViperTony]

fwiw bmwcca holds a huge car raffle every year where they raffle off a half dozen cars or so. i doubt they are doing it illegally.

BMWCCA has been a legal entity in existence for more than 5 years.

['93 RT/10]

How does the Dream Giveaway keep doing it? You buy tickets, but the money goes to charities. Sounds like a raffle still.

http://dreamgiveaway.com/

[daytonprowler]

Different rules for non-profit charities and non-profit social clubs.

[Viper Girl]

We would have to become a Church to be able to have a raffle... The Holy Rolling Viper Owners Association LMAO


I copied this from the State of WI, but I think all states break down the groups in this manner... Social clubs are excluded under Service



Religious: An established religious institution or group thereof. If not, additional background information is requested.
Veteran: An established group of past participants in the United State Armed Forces. If not, additional information is requested.
Fraternal: An organization with a representative form of government that (1) operates under the lodge system with a ritualistic form of work; (2) is organized to promote the payment of life, sickness, accident or other insurance benefits to its members; or (3) is organized to carry on some worthy civic or service purpose.
Service: An organization which has, as a minimum, the benefit, the growth and the general welfare of the community as one of its principle purposes. This category includes a labor organization whose jurisdiction is limited to a specific geographical area within the state or political party, except a state committee registered under s. 11.05 and organized exclusively for political purposes under whose name candidates appear on a ballot at any election. This also excludes a trade association or a social club.
Charitable: An organization will be classed as such if the dominant purpose of its work is for the public good, and the work done for its members is but the means adopted for this purpose. Include registration certificate issued from the State of Wisconsin.
501(c)(3): Internal Revenue Service determination letter stating that contributions to your organization are deductible for income tax purposes.

[jwolf]

Porsche Club of America does at least 2 raffles year the always go over there sale numbers and add additional cars. usually 4.
I know the PCA is a lot larger but they are a car club and do raffles legally.
Here are links to the last couple
https://www.pca.org/news/2016-04-05/spring-2016-member-only-raffle-718-boxster-s-or-macan-gts
https://www.pca.org/news/2015-10-06/fall-2015-member-only-raffle-911-carrera-grand-prize

[SmoknTires]

To try to help provide some more insight into this I'll provide some more detail relative to the struggles (and why some choose to do raffles). I know it's confusing at the armchair, but it's a mess when you get into the detail. I'll also mention that there are many raffles being done that aren't considered legal - you'll get different opinions by different lawyers in fact, as the laws need to get interpreted and you have to weigh your risk both against the possibilities as well as the ramifications. In the case of car clubs (especially one our size) it's a big risk and all of our lawyers said it was technically illegal in several aspects for us to do it. It's also PLAGUED by jurisdiction issues - which gets MUCH more complicated when you create a raffle that crosses state (and gets crazier when you include Canada, Asia, etc...). And one thing ALL lawyers seem agree on, is that there is easily a lot of risk, and definitely subject to whomever may raise an issue, as it's not just subject to the law bringing it to your attention, but an individual taking an issue in a state they live in and then pushing an agenda. And particularly when you have unscrupulous people on the outside who may look to derail a raffle, the risk isn't worth it. Something we've already unfortunately experienced with different endeavors...

In short, the reason we can do a doorpize at an event is because we're providing "free" as a cost of something else, aren't selling the tickets themselves, can't buy multiple chances per person, we don't make a profit (at all), and dealing with a wide variety of legal loopholes which we follow closely to make it safe from all perspectives. I know some outsiders have posted/postured as semantics... but you'll now understand that a free doorpize is indeed very different from a raffle especially from a legal perspective. Direct raffles are considered gambling and are subject to some pretty stringent scrutiny. It also gets even tougher especially when over $600+ in value, when it's online, and when it involves the sale of tickets across state borders. There are also different laws when it comes to the type of non-profit you are (non-profit doesn't = charity), and those rules/laws are again ratcheted up and subject to by federal, state, and local jurisdiction. This makes it a mess to do it completely without risk. A few other highlights:

* Under many state and federal laws you have to be in business (some states 3, other states more)
* You cannot run them regularly... hilariously, "regularly" isn't defined well and subject to how the IRS would apply. But the IRS rules do apply to all states... We were told you could be asking for trouble if you're running a raffle each year, or more often, especially if you're doing it to raise money or keep any of the profit.
* There is also a federal law that weighs the relativity of how "essential" that income is to you. Given the value of our raffle, even one of lesser value, for a club out size it's far more essential (than for much larger entities - like the Porsche club). This is a big sticking point.
* Many laws for non-profits dictate that 100% of the proceeds must be used for charitable purposes (again another way that some raffles are allowed to happen - because they aren't using the money they raise for their club/business)
* Online raffles are subject all the way down county laws... and some states consider them completely illegal. Other states, even if you DON'T draw/host the raffle in their state, consider the SALE of those tickets in their state - illegal.
* There are laws that while they allow the raffle, won't allow cash as the prize. So you can be legal by raffling the car, but then if you don't manage to sell enough tickets and go to a 50/50 prize... you're now illegal there.
* Many places (to avoid fraud) force you to have ownership of what you're raffling, before the raffle begins. You'd have to buy the car and have it. It's also obviously a financial big risk/investment, especially if you don't sell enough tickets.
* Many, many jurisdictions also only allow you to sell to members. So we can't open it up to outsiders as a way to increase ticket sales.
* There are laws around how to can even advertise a raffle in some jurisdictions, holy lord.
* And there's so much more. That was only off the top of my head...

So again, not only have we been told it's illegal - and we easily fit in many of those buckets I mentioned above (and there are other more subtle things I also didn't list), but even if it weren't directly illegal because we fulfill some requirements, all the risks that come with it - make it easily not worth it. And when you're a small club, a mistake like this is a door closer.

The trick is not to find the lawyer who says it's legal. The trick is in doing the research, drawing consensus, and making sure all attorneys agree. On this topic that's EASILY impossible as clearly it's plagued by landmines, interpretation, and of course clearly has challenges you can't overcome. The lawyers answers on this is typically "95% of raffles you see are indeed technically illegal when you do them across state lines, but it all comes down to whether you get caught or if someone decides to push the issue personally". And I'm way too risk averse, and surrounded by too many lawyers in my own family (who we've also talked to), to take on that risk simply to provide a benefit for a percentage of people in the club... Other clubs many not be so careful, or put in enough research, or merely have a lawyer that said they think it's ok. We've brought several of those examples to our lawyers, all of them were deemed illegal or a big risk by them. And yes, there is a very specific area of law that deals particularly with this - and we retained 2 lawyers who practice in this very area, specifically for non-profit social clubs like ours - and we were easily told NO - it's illegal for us to have one (on several levels). So if other clubs want to do it - have at it - it's definitely their prerogative. But that's not the level of risk I'm at all comfortable with, and I think many (if not all) in our club would agree. We're also financially self funding through club memberships and activities, so we aren't in a position to need a raffle to survive. So the motivation to take on risk for that reasons, also isn't there.

Hope that explains in more detail. Wish we could do one, but we've done our homework... trust me! : )

[Coloviper]

Thanks Alex, it helps. But I still want a free new GEN V. :)

[SmoknTires]

NVE3...

We've now come full circle to exactly how we initially got here. : )

[1ststrike]

I guess i am missing the point, but, if you want a chance to get a free viper go to the NVE3 dinner. Sounds simple to me, and you probably have a better chance to win because of lower number of people eligible.

[Vprbite]

Thanks Alex, it helps. But I still want a free new GEN V. :)

It won't be "free" when the tax man comes calling. Smoking deal on a Gen V...yes. But about 40k away from "free" .

[plumcrazy]

i identify as a viper raffle winner. where is my winnings ?

[Coloviper]

Well of course I am going to NVE3 in Vegas but I never win anything.

[ViperTony]

Well of course I am going to NVE3 in Vegas but I never win anything.

I used to say that exact same thing....but stopped saying it after NVE1. :D

[Vprbite]

Better odds at NVE than a raffle, right Tony?

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

Maybe some of the higher up of the VOA can help.....
I attended the NVE1 in Detroit MICHIGAN, why wasn't the "DOOR PRIZE" drawing held at the dinner instead of in OHIO ???
The tickets were transported from the event to London(I think) OHIO
I watched the drawing on the monitor in the dinning room, seen a bunch of tickets on a table but I didn't see my ticket there
How can I be assured my ticket was actually in the SQUIRRL CAGE?
I didn't like the SQUIRRLE CAGE the tickets were put into, there was no mixing of the tickets just tumbling.
NO I didn't attend NVE2
Thank you, .........

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

Where did my post go????????????????????????
I just had a few questions

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????

[Vprbite]

I see three posts by you, if that helps.

Per your other question, one of the guys in charge will answer it. FWIW I know they are very careful about that stuff. I think they put them all in and if the one they draw isn't in attendance (even stepped out of the room) they re-draw. But someone will know for sure.

[XSnake]

Maybe some of the higher up of the VOA can help.....
I attended the NVE1 in Detroit MICHIGAN, why wasn't the "DOOR PRIZE" drawing held at the dinner instead of in OHIO ???
The tickets were transported from the event to London(I think) OHIO
I watched the drawing on the monitor in the dinning room, seen a bunch of tickets on a table but I didn't see my ticket there
How can I be assured my ticket was actually in the SQUIRRL CAGE?
I didn't like the SQUIRRLE CAGE the tickets were put into, there was no mixing of the tickets just tumbling.
NO I didn't attend NVE2
Thank you, .........
I believe they video taped all the tickets being present and recorded them all being put into the tumbler. It was all shown live on the video at NVE1, not sure how you missed it. Also, you're a couple YEARS late asking questions on NVE1. Where ya been?

[plumcrazy]

Where did my post go????????????????????????
I just had a few questions

all 3 are there. there are no other posts made by you.

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks Alex, it helps. But I still want a free new GEN V. :)Its not free, your American raffle system still involves paying all taxes on the value of the prize, (which is a lot)!

[Vprbite]

Look at the top of the page, I think someone already pointed that out. ; )

It's a great price on a gen V, but not "free." Unfortunately. I know some creative accountants that could make it so you don't pay taxes on it. For about 3 years untill you end up in federal "pound me in the ass" prison. But this would be a tough one to slip underneath the radar.

[SmoknTires]

Heh, Fatboy - it's not the raffle system but the IRS - and we're not fond of them either but it's the country we live in - they want their cut!

Only thing certain in life is death and taxes. But this is still certainly better than the alternative Vprbite so eloquently mentions. : )

[AZTVR]

"... And you are working for no one but me,
Taxman! "

[Fatboy 18]

Heh, Fatboy - it's not the raffle system but the IRS - and we're not fond of them either but it's the country we live in - they want their cut!

Only thing certain in life is death and taxes. But this is still certainly better than the alternative Vprbite so eloquently mentions. : )

:smilielol: Yea, not sure I like the sound of Viprbite's reasoning :D
Need to change the IRS laws :p

[daytonprowler]

Maybe some of the higher up of the VOA can help.....
I attended the NVE1 in Detroit MICHIGAN, why wasn't the "DOOR PRIZE" drawing held at the dinner instead of in OHIO ???
The tickets were transported from the event to London(I think) OHIO
I watched the drawing on the monitor in the dinning room, seen a bunch of tickets on a table but I didn't see my ticket there
How can I be assured my ticket was actually in the SQUIRRL CAGE?
I didn't like the SQUIRRLE CAGE the tickets were put into, there was no mixing of the tickets just tumbling.
NO I didn't attend NVE2
Thank you, .........

Joe,

I can answer your question my dear. Not sure why you brought this up
(again) but it's been answered before for you. It's also been over two
years. Stop trying to create drama and add doubt where it's not needed.
Everything that is done with the VOA is above and beyond. Again, here's the
over 2 year old link to help you. There are pictures too! :)

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4502-*PICS*-VOA-Homecoming-NVE1-Dodge-SRT-Open-House?p=66816&viewfull=1#post66816

And if you're still uncomfortable, the easy solution is simply not to go to
the event. We don't want you or your agenda to feel uneasy about such things. Do
us all a favor and keep it on the other website and don't bring this here,
we don't need threads high jacked by someone with 40 posts trying to stir
the pot and create a fight where there is none.

Thank you..... :)

[WhiteSnake]

Joe,

I can answer your question my dear. Not sure why you brought this up
(again) but it's been answered before for you. It's also been over two
years. Stop trying to create drama and add doubt where it's not needed.
Everything that is done with the VOA is above and beyond. Again, here's the
over 2 year old link to help you. There are pictures too! :)

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4502-*PICS*-VOA-Homecoming-NVE1-Dodge-SRT-Open-House?p=66816&viewfull=1#post66816

And if you're still uncomfortable, the easy solution is simply not to go to
the event. We don't want you or your agenda to feel uneasy about such things. Do
us all a favor and keep it on the other website and don't bring this here,
we don't need threads high jacked by someone with 40 posts trying to stir
the pot and create a fight where there is none.

Thank you..... :)



THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Randall, you are much more diplomatic than I would have been. Thus I didn't reply to his "trolling" comments. Not worth it.

[Chorps]

Joe,

I can answer your question my dear. Not sure why you brought this up
(again) but it's been answered before for you. It's also been over two
years. Stop trying to create drama and add doubt where it's not needed.
Everything that is done with the VOA is above and beyond. Again, here's the
over 2 year old link to help you. There are pictures too! :)

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4502-*PICS*-VOA-Homecoming-NVE1-Dodge-SRT-Open-House?p=66816&viewfull=1#post66816

And if you're still uncomfortable, the easy solution is simply not to go to
the event. We don't want you or your agenda to feel uneasy about such things. Do
us all a favor and keep it on the other website and don't bring this here,
we don't need threads high jacked by someone with 40 posts trying to stir
the pot and create a fight where there is none.

Thank you..... :)




So what you're saying is that it's too late for a do-over? I protest! :t0122:

[Coloviper]

Look at the top of the page, I think someone already pointed that out. ; )

It's a great price on a gen V, but not "free." Unfortunately. I know some creative accountants that could make it so you don't pay taxes on it. For about 3 years untill you end up in federal "pound me in the ass" prison. But this would be a tough one to slip underneath the radar.

I know it is not "Free" and you have to pay taxes on any winnings, geeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, that is common sense fellows. My point is I want a new GEN V. Ha! Ha! Kind of scared off a used one with the issues and other risks. People are so damn literal these days.

[Vprbite]

I think you would be surprised how many people think when you win something, it really is "free."

Google what happens to Price is Right winners. Many of them get waylaid when they find out they owe taxes they can't afford. I guess I should have assumed people on here knew better than that as we tend to be a bit smarter on this kind of stuff than the average prize winner. No offense meant, Colo. I meant it in general. I wasn't trying to point any fingers at you. I apologize if it seemed like I was talking down to you.

[BrianACR]

Well, up here in Canada, when you win something like a car or a lottery, it's all tax free :Canada:
Yet one more reason to be happy to be Canadian.... Not that I've everwon anything though :witless:

[AZTVR]

Well, up here in Canada, when you win something like a car or a lottery, it's all tax free :Canada:
Yet one more reason to be happy to be Canadian.... Not that I've everwon anything though :witless:

Yeah, but, if you were to win the Viper at the NVE, I believe that the USA taxman would still take his cut !!!
(Not sure though, since it is a material item.)

[Fatboy 18]

I remember way back when I was in Vegas, there was a Gen 1 Mc Viper on a raised podium in the casino, it was surrounded by one arm slot machines and the car was the winning prize. Would you have to pay tax on that too?

[Vprbite]

I remember way back when I was in Vegas, there was a Gen 1 Mc Viper on a raised podium in the casino, it was surrounded by one arm slot machines and the car was the winning prize. Would you have to pay tax on that too?

Yes. Though you can write off a certain amount of your gambling losses. Basically the way I think of it is that if you win a material prize, it is effectively a big bag if money for the amount of the prize is worth as far as the IRS is concerned. Being from another country may change thingsa bit. But parhaps not. You would owe on income if you worked over here and made 100k dollars so, perhaps it would be the same.

I wish it was like Canada. As rare as it is to win stuff like this, just call it a win. It's not like people are winning things instead of income. It honks me off too.

- - - Updated - - -


I remember way back when I was in Vegas, there was a Gen 1 Mc Viper on a raised podium in the casino, it was surrounded by one arm slot machines and the car was the winning prize. Would you have to pay tax on that too?

Yes. Though you can write off a certain amount of your gambling losses. Basically the way I think of it is that if you win a material prize, it is effectively a big bag if money for the amount of the prize is worth as far as the IRS is concerned. Being from another country may change thingsa bit. But parhaps not. You would owe on income if you worked over here and made 100k dollars so, perhaps it would be the same.

I wish it was like Canada. As rare as it is to win stuff like this, just call it a win. It's not like people are winning things instead of income. It honks me off too.

[BlknBlu]

I remember way back when I was in Vegas, there was a Gen 1 Mc Viper on a raised podium in the casino, it was surrounded by one arm slot machines and the car was the winning prize. Would you have to pay tax on that too?

Rusty did not have to pay taxes on his Vegas McViper

Bruce

[kbench55]

Yeah, but, if you were to win the Viper at the NVE, I believe that the USA taxman would still take his cut !!!
(Not sure though, since it is a material item.)

As a Canadian we would still have to pay the appropriate taxes on any lottery win in the US. However, we can apply to have some of it refunded back to us.

[Fatboy 18]

That's odd? So you could pull a one armed slot machine and win a cash prize and walk out of the casino, but if you win a material prize you pay tax on it?

[Vprbite]

That's odd? So you could pull a one armed slot machine and win a cash prize and walk out of the casino, but if you win a material prize you pay tax on it?

That's odd. I really thought if you won money in Vegas (over any appreciable amount) that it was taxable as income. Perhaps I am wrong. I've never won more than 80 bucks in Vegas so I don't think it's much a problem for me.

[BrianACR]

If we win anything in Canada, it is tax free. Cars, cash, houses etc. And yes Kbench55, I believe if we were to win anything south of the border, they would take their portion and it is up to us to go after it.

[AZTVR]

That's odd? So you could pull a one armed slot machine and win a cash prize and walk out of the casino, but if you win a material prize you pay tax on it?
We have to claim the winnings on our US income tax form, whether cash or an item. If above some cash amount, I believe that IRS directs the prize giver to withhold 30% of the cash and give that to the IRS and you would get an IRS form showing that. I don't know exactly what happens with a material item other than that you can't shake off the taxman; if you are a US citizen, at least.

[ViperTony]

I remember way back when I was in Vegas, there was a Gen 1 Mc Viper on a raised podium in the casino, it was surrounded by one arm slot machines and the car was the winning prize. Would you have to pay tax on that too?

Yes, if back then the IRS required casinos to report gambling winnings via 1099G. Today..they certain report it.

[TrackAire]

That's odd? So you could pull a one armed slot machine and win a cash prize and walk out of the casino, but if you win a material prize you pay tax on it?

Any single jackpot from a slot machine or any gambling machine that is $1200.00 and over, they will not pay you until you fill out the tax forms and they report it to the IRS. For Keno, I believe it is $1500.00. You still get all your winnings, but your "income" for the year just went up and you'll pay income tax on that additional income.

Now if you win a lottery or something with annuity type payout, that is entirely different.

It really doesn't make a lot of sense on the slot machines. I hit a $1500.00 payout in Vegas but had over $2200.00 accumulated on the machine. They didn't care how many little jackpots I got, just anything over $1200.00 they'd show up to fill the forms, ID, etc. IIRC, the slot machine will not play or accept any more pulls until they come to unlock it so they can verify that you filled out the IRS forms.

Now if you're visiting from the UK, it really doesn't matter as if you even fill out the forms, they can't come after you for taxes.

[Coloviper]

If you win over $3,000 cash, the house will retain 30% of the withholdings for cash right there before you leave. Under that amount and I believe you take it all home but like others have said, you must report ALL winnings at tax time anyway. Pay now or pay later. A material win and they will retain 30% which you report and it is suppose to all even out with all your taxes in the end. Theoretically.

Now the big issues here a few years ago was when this dipshit government required US Citizen non-US residents to report all income even if you live 100% in another country and abide by their tax rules etc. Making you file a US tax return and if the US tax rates are higher, they require those same US citizens to pay the US the higher difference of those tax brackets just for being an American Citizen. How arrogant and technically against the law as dual taxation laws are suppose to protect against this stuff! Stupidest move I have seen a government do yet as they wanted to crack down on offshore dealings where they pay no tax. Poor old common man caught holding the bag for what they tried to do as others just renounced while those doing illegals just go underground anyway. Didn't work so well if you look at the Panama situation a few months ago.

These last 8 years will go down as the darkest in this country's history and I am in no way talking about anything racist. Just a completely inept government, all of them, all sides. November is not providing any potential hope for the next 4 at the moment either. FUBAR

But hey Canada is not much better off with selfie stick boy and that crew in the parliament. Not sure what it is going to take to fix it? Can it even be fixed?

But back to the OP, Canadians and others outside of the US would have to pay tax upfront like a resident but would file for return. They actually get a large portion back.

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks for the feedback Guys, I never knew any of this. :) I could also see something else popping up, if hypothetically, I had won a car, filed with the IRS, I would then have to export the car then be hit with Import taxes on the valuation of the NEW car! Think I will ask the question with my tax office to get clarity.

I don't think they would tax me on the value of the ticket :D

[Vprbite]

If you don't pay, im pretty sure they take the car too. With the stiff susoension, perhaps it's good they take the car.

https://youtu.be/oBzvMLW0ii4

https://youtu.be/7tCzA0W_KJM

[Viktimize]

That's odd? So you could pull a one armed slot machine and win a cash prize and walk out of the casino, but if you win a material prize you pay tax on it?

No, they will tax any winning over 1200$(iirc). Table games are the only ones you can walk out with, because they don't have a way to fully track what you are putting down on the table to begin with.

[Viktimize]

Thanks Colo. We've looked at many variations unfortunately, not much luck.

On the flipside, I'll say this only because I witness this often and it creates some challenges. Doing something to "everyone" (like raising membership dues for a car raffle) would have a hard time flying - as to make a few happy, you'll piss off the majority who may not agree. And since middle ground isn't an option and it has to go one way or the other - it'll polarize folks as the whole group will never agree on one direction.

Making a special member level for a shot at winning a car would indeed at least separate people out and allow people to opt in by will, however, now you'll have a harder time clearing the cost of the car because people can't buy more than one shot at it... you can do the math to see how many people would have to buy a single shot, you'd need well over 65% of the club to do so. And if you let them buy more chances, it's a raffle.

I know it's hard to describe the detail that went into looking at it (and it costs money to get legal representation who will research, and then stand behind, their decision). But certainly welcome someone taking another shot at it. If someone is an attorney, or knows one and wouldn't mind getting deep into the issue, that would be big time welcome.


Not that hard to set up in Canada. Could just have one of the Canada regions register as a non-profit, then get the raffle going. If U.S. member wins the car, then you just leave it up to them to import the car and pay their state taxes. Same as any Canadian member would have to do if they won the car at NVE.

I'm still looking into setting up my own entity to do raffles myself. Buy a new car, drive it for a year, then raffle it off. Just have to print enough tickets to cover cost of the car, as well as the required charity donation, and a bit of fluff for raffle management costs. Then I can drive a brand new supercar every couple years.

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

Joe,

I can answer your question my dear. Not sure why you brought this up
(again) but it's been answered before for you. It's also been over two
years. Stop trying to create drama and add doubt where it's not needed.
Everything that is done with the VOA is above and beyond. Again, here's the
over 2 year old link to help you. There are pictures too! :)

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4502-*PICS*-VOA-Homecoming-NVE1-Dodge-SRT-Open-House?p=66816&viewfull=1#post66816

And if you're still uncomfortable, the easy solution is simply not to go to
the event. We don't want you or your agenda to feel uneasy about such things. Do
us all a favor and keep it on the other website and don't bring this here,
we don't need threads high jacked by someone with 40 posts trying to stir
the pot and create a fight where there is none.

Thank you..... :)




Randall,
I am NOT your dear, look else where on this site for that
My post were originally removed then reposted
No one not even you have answered any of my questions in the past or now, even in your reply you avoided all questions
Per your request I will go to the VCA site and post what you don't want VOA members to see. Seems like it bothers you the most
I am "Drama Free" don't belong to either club but now kind of leaning towards the other.
Don't need a club to ENJOY my cars apparently some do
I didn't go to NVE2 nor will I go to NVE3
REASONABLE DOUBT to the way the VOA runs the doorprize giveaway
While the tickets were transported to their destination who verified that all the tickets were matched with the names of the attendees were put in the SQUIRRLE CAGE
True or not true- originally ALL club officers in each state were not eligible to BUY a doorprize ticket then down the road it was changed to where they could
And the winner was-----------HMMMMMMM Who won the NVE2?????????
True or not true- You are BAND for life from the VCA- Why???????????
Sorry I don't have the time to look at everyones post every day all day long and comment on them
Where have you been at the OHIO VOA events?????????? Whats happening to the OHIO club besides falling apart
What did VCA do to any of the VOA members to make them so angry

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Randall, you are much more diplomatic than I would have been. Thus I didn't reply to his "trolling" comments. Not worth it.

WhiteSnake,
Thanks for being a swell guy and not trying to beat up on me
If I was TROLLING I would have more than 42 post
Keep you eyes closed and everything will be good

[XSnake]

Randall,
I am NOT your dear, look else where on this site for that
My post were originally removed then reposted
No one not even you have answered any of my questions in the past or now, even in your reply you avoided all questions
Per your request I will go to the VCA site and post what you don't want VOA members to see. Seems like it bothers you the most
I am "Drama Free" don't belong to either club but now kind of leaning towards the other.
Don't need a club to ENJOY my cars apparently some do
I didn't go to NVE2 nor will I go to NVE3
REASONABLE DOUBT to the way the VOA runs the doorprize giveaway
While the tickets were transported to their destination who verified that all the tickets were matched with the names of the attendees were put in the SQUIRRLE CAGE
True or not true- originally ALL club officers in each state were not eligible to BUY a doorprize ticket then down the road it was changed to where they could
And the winner was-----------HMMMMMMM Who won the NVE2?????????
True or not true- You are BAND for life from the VCA- Why???????????
Sorry I don't have the time to look at everyones post every day all day long and comment on them
Where have you been at the OHIO VOA events?????????? Whats happening to the OHIO club besides falling apart
What did VCA do to any of the VOA members to make them so angry

Maybe you didn't read my response earlier in the thread.....

as for you being drama free....... look at what you just posted??? lmao

National officers were not eligible to win either door prize and they still paid their the fee to go.

NVE2 was one by a new member from Texas. he had been in the club 3-4 months iirc.

BTW, I'm also banned for life from vCa. why? asking questions to the prior leadership. turned out I was right. lol.

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

I believe they video taped all the tickets being present and recorded them all being put into the tumbler. It was all shown live on the video at NVE1, not sure how you missed it. Also, you're a couple YEARS late asking questions on NVE1. Where ya been?

You were at NVE1 correct?
Do you know for a FACT that your ticket was actually in that SQUIRREL CAGE???
Was it video taped the entire time from when the tickets were taken from Detroit all the way to London OHIO till the winning ticket was picked
You seen a bunch of paper(tickets?) on a table did you actually see your ticket with your name on it???? Didn't think so
Same goes for NVE2 "SMOKING MIRRORS" is what you are seeing

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

Maybe you didn't read my response earlier in the thread.....

as for you being drama free....... look at what you just posted??? lmao

National officers were not eligible to win either door prize and they still paid their the fee to go.

NVE2 was one by a new member from Texas. he had been in the club 3-4 months iirc.

BTW, I'm also banned for life from vCa. why? asking questions to the prior leadership. turned out I was right. lol.

No I did not see your post-SORRY
I didn't know you were band from the other club
May I ask WHY?????????

[XSnake]

You were at NVE1 correct?
Do you know for a FACT that your ticket was actually in that SQUIRREL CAGE???
Was it video taped the entire time from when the tickets were taken from Detroit all the way to London OHIO till the winning ticket was picked
You seen a bunch of paper(tickets?) on a table did you actually see your ticket with your name on it???? Didn't think so
Same goes for NVE2 "SMOKING MIRRORS" is what you are seeing

yes I was and yes I do. they didn't have to video tape the entire drive. why would they? they video taped all the tickets laid out on the table in front of the machine. yes, they recorded the process. then they showed all those tickets being put into the hopper. all in front of a police chief and a mayor. lol.

[AZTVR]

http://iloapp.immerstein.net/blog/tinfoil?ShowFile&image=1173093816.jpeg

[Chorps]

I don't know why, but this thread reminds me of this:

http://i.imgur.com/AEusaJX.jpg

[BrassMonkey ACR E]

yes I was and yes I do. they didn't have to video tape the entire drive. why would they? they video taped all the tickets laid out on the table in front of the machine. yes, they recorded the process. then they showed all those tickets being put into the hopper. all in front of a police chief and a mayor. lol.


Paper (tickets) were laid out on the table but I didn't see ONE persons name on camera just scanning over the table
Did the police Chief and Mayor look at each individual ticket and match names to verify the validity before they were put in the cage ..LOL...
Didn't thing so just a bunch of SMOKING MIRRORS in my opinion

[Voice of Reason]

https://kylebstiff.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/conspiracy.jpg

I recommend you find yourself a nice Federal Wildlife Refuge to occupy until your demands are met because apparently nothing said here will convince you everything was on the up and up with the NVE door prize.

[AZTVR]

just a bunch of SMOKING MIRRORS

:smilielol::smilielol::smilielol::smilielol:

[RT SERPENT]

Mirrors smoke? LOL!:lol2::lol2::lol2:

.... and the "tinfoil hat!!!" Priceless!:owned:

[SmoknTires]

You were at NVE1 correct?
Do you know for a FACT that your ticket was actually in that SQUIRREL CAGE???
Was it video taped the entire time from when the tickets were taken from Detroit all the way to London OHIO till the winning ticket was picked
You seen a bunch of paper(tickets?) on a table did you actually see your ticket with your name on it???? Didn't think so
Same goes for NVE2 "SMOKING MIRRORS" is what you are seeing

And... do we REALLY know for a fact why a non-member, with only 40 posts, decides to question something obsessively, which couldn't be done with more bleeding precision and transparency - over two years after it occurred...? Hmmm, even Jesse Ventura is shaking his head.

I don't want to dignify ridiculous accusations (with what also seems to require a 1 hour expectation on a response) with more rationale that you'll simply ignore. The process has been made clear to you on more than one occasion and by several people. You're not here to help, or to provide insight, you're here to fight and push an agenda - and most people reading your rants know the real intent of your questions and from where they're coming from. Enough please.

I'm not going to be overly politically correct about this, as it deserves the same lack of respect these forums have received from you... You wanted a response from someone higher up in the VOA, here it is: Fix the "?" on your keyboard, it's annoying.

[Vprbite]

WhiteSnake,
Thanks for being a swell guy and not trying to beat up on me
If I was TROLLING I would have more than 42 post
Keep you eyes closed and everything will be good

Whitesnake is a respected member around here and people like having him around, which is clearly more than can be said for you. He also carries himself with class and dignity which I'm sure is why he didn't respond to your backhanded comment.

If you want to levy charges about impropriety in money handling, why not throw them at the club that has a documented history of that? As opposed to making baseless accusations about the club that has run everything above board from the beginning and continues to grow in membership?

If you didn't go to NVE 2 and won't go to NVE 3, why do you care how they run the door prize? It doesn't seem that it effects you.

Bottom line is, your juvenile antics are not entertaining and no one is enjoying them. Save us the trouble of clicking the ignore button and take your poor attitude and snide comments to a forum that wants them. Though I doubt you will be able to find one.

[Fatboy 18]

Unbelievable! Seriously, has anyone bought a raffle ticket from another charity or car club at a show? I have. Have I ever questioned whether my ticket was in the draw or not? Honestly, No I have not! I have bought a raffle ticket knowing that some of the funds will go to a cause of some sort and someone will win a prize.

There were some bad goings on within the old club a few years ago which came to light in heated meetings.

Everyone, we are a group of Guys and Girls who want to meet fellow Viper owners and share the passion we have in our cars. Time to let the Bitterness go, there are many clubs out there. If someone has no wish to join a club, fine. But some of us like to share tips and help each other enjoy our cars.

LET IT GO!

[Blackhawk]

My memory of the drawing at NVE1 was that everyone stood in line to get a ticket without a name, only a number, before going into dinner that evening. There were a given number of attendees so that number of tickets were printed and numbered sequentially - say 1 to 500. Then at the appropriate time they put on the video and noted that out of the possible 500 tickets they only handed out a given number (say 482 in order from 1 to 482). In the video all the tickets were laid out on tables in order and they took tickets 483 to 500 off the table. Then they proceeded to take the remaining tickets and drop them in the cage - all done via a continuous feed. Draw a ticket, announce the number and see which person has that ticket/number. No names, no driving, pretty straightforward process.

[Coloviper]

I remember the same as Blackhawk. There were no names on the tickets though they did capture the number/ ticket you received with your name on a separate sheet of registrants when you registered for dinner to get your ticket to start with. They went to great length to show all tickets on the table beforehand and then they were thrown into the cage and the ole major drew the ticket. Pretty on the up and up. Fraud never crossed my mine then, and still doesn't now but seeing Tony P in the dinner ticket line to get a ticket only a few spots in front of me, still haunts me to this day that I should have come down that tiny bit sooner. Oh what could have been. Always Vegas, I guess! Would be nice to have a shot at a car between NVE events though.

[BlknBlu]

If one is looking for trouble with the NVE1 give away, then you are truly stirring up trouble for the sake of being a keyboard warrior. Sometimes I really don't understand folks agenda's when they decide to be a part of a great community and club. It is truly about the car and the friendships it promotes, not the tearing apart of an organization that works hard for it's members.

Winning a car has to be considered an incredible perk

Bruce

[Viktimize]

You were at NVE1 correct?
Do you know for a FACT that your ticket was actually in that SQUIRREL CAGE???
Was it video taped the entire time from when the tickets were taken from Detroit all the way to London OHIO till the winning ticket was picked
You seen a bunch of paper(tickets?) on a table did you actually see your ticket with your name on it???? Didn't think so
Same goes for NVE2 "SMOKING MIRRORS" is what you are seeing


Were you paying attention at all at NVE1? Why would anyone need to see the tickets being transported? There is no names on the tickets, they are matched set of numbers, person with the matching ticket number wins the prize. Personally I watched as the camera panned the tickets to watch for my number. I saw it on the table, then watched as they picked up all the tickets and dumped them in the cage. Then they even had the mayor or police chief(some non affiliated person) actually draw the ticket. What more do you want?

[sparkrn]

What more do you want?[/QUOTE]

He just didn't want to be a Big Loser! As we can see though......

[GABOON]

thanks for setting record straight about whitesnake; nice post! the only thing bad about the NVE1 dinner and raffle was it was hot standing around in line while getting tickets-- the guy that won was in front of me in line, that upset me. As for dumb ass and his cars-- maybe a road trip to visit him and align some running lites; Excuse my poor attitude, it's something i picked up in 'Nam.

[Vprbite]

thanks for setting record straight about whitesnake; nice post! the only thing bad about the NVE1 dinner and raffle was it was hot standing around in line while getting tickets-- the guy that won was in front of me in line, that upset me. As for dumb ass and his cars-- maybe a road trip to visit him and align some running lites; Excuse my poor attitude, it's something i picked up in 'Nam.

Thanks. Not that whitesnake needs anyone to defend him, but he has us none the less.

and no worries abour your attitude. We tend to look out for each other around here. We are very welcoming to new members. But protective of our friends,

[ViperSmith]

This thread is why you shouldn't smoke meth

[Vprbite]

This thread is why you shouldn't smoke meth

How else am I supposed to clean the house top to bottom in 30 minutes?

[daytonprowler]

In case you didn't see the pics of the doorprize winners with their Vipers.

GOOD TIMES!

NVE1 Detroit - 2013 GTS Launch Edition - Tony P. (ViperTony)

http://driveviper.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6031&d=1457655531

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/Prowler2001/Prowler2001138/IMG_8506_zps5929f5a6.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/Prowler2001/Prowler2001138/IMG_8504_zpsaebbc18c.jpg
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/Prowler2001/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_9773-HR_zps2do9y8ez.jpg



NVE 2 - New Orleans - 2016 GTS - Justin and Meredith
https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13241276_988754981172895_2943310048306755050_n.jpg ?oh=8c26c2a3e007cf15d6621a6016b46ff4&oe=57E09B34

Justin and Meredith with their friends from VOA Houston
https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240691_1029825940435141_1859937001661875983_n.jp g?oh=eed448f5981ac17dc253dd97ce8f7144&oe=57E1F48D


http://driveviper.com/images/front-page/NVE2.jpg



NVE 3 - Las Vegas - April 2018 - And another Viper doorprize!

http://driveviper.com/nve3/countdown.php
http://driveviper.com/nve3/Homepage1.jpg

[Fatboy 18]

Awesome pics :) Many congratulations to all the winners :)

[Shooter]

NVE 3 - Las Vegas - April 2018 - And another Viper doorprize!
[/COLOR]
http://driveviper.com/nve3/countdown.php
http://driveviper.com/nve3/Homepage1.jpg


Your giving away a Gen 4 ?














:)

[Chorps]

Your giving away a Gen 4 ?










:)

Of course not. Get III or bust. :witless:

[daytonprowler]

Your giving away a Gen 4 ?

:)

LOL!

Rest assured we'll have a couple of 2017's set aside..... :)

[SmoknTires]

Shhhhhhh! : )

I think you'll all like the car being planned... we're narrowing on the approach and have a couple cool directions to go. It won't just be one of a kind because of NVE, but perhaps something else that adds even more significance.

As for the pic... we love all gens - wish I kept my Gen4, I miss a convertible. Oh can I say it?... All Gens Matter!!.

[ViperTony]

the only thing bad about the NVE1 dinner and raffle was it was hot standing around in line while getting tickets-- the guy that won was in front of me in line, that upset me.

Don't be upset with me....be upset with the nice lady that meandered into the line in front of us.

[ViperTony]

In case you didn't see the pics of the doorprize winners with their Vipers.

GOOD TIMES!

NVE1 Detroit - 2013 GTS Launch Edition - Tony P. (ViperTony)

http://driveviper.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6031&d=1457655531


Damn...I was 60 pounds heavier that day. Apparently winning an NVE door prize also results in weight loss. :D

[GABOON]

hey-- i am not upset with you!! i am bothered that you got the winning ticket and i did not, thus the drawing was rigged--right? NVE2 I got no complaints, looks like it was luck of the draw.

[ViperTony]

hey-- i am not upset with you!! i am bothered that you got the winning ticket and i did not, thus the drawing was rigged--right? NVE2 I got no complaints, looks like it was luck of the draw.

Got it, no worries. You'll win at NVE3. I've foreseen it. :D

[Vprbite]

I'll be bringing a gun. I'm getting that car one way or another!

[SmoknTires]

From what I've gleamed since my short time living in AZ, you'd probably have brought one anyway...

[Shooter]

Of course not. Get III or bust. :witless:

Dammit. I didn't see the vents on the hood.


Your giving away a Gen III?



:)

[Coloviper]

LOL!

Rest assured we'll have a couple of 2017's set aside..... :)

Better yet, why not have a extreme low mile original MSO 92' RT/10 and a 17' ACR in that raffle as a pair. That way you (I mean me) can have it all.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

............... However, the VOA actually did look into this (both in the past and somewhat recently), and based on extensive research, two different attorneys we hired stated that a raffle cannot be done legally. We even hired folks from different states who specialize in this. They even looked at specific examples of raffles being conducted actively which we provided to them, they looked into it and came back with the same caution. ..... however we can't risk anything with the club over this - we're told it's just not legal regardless of how we may do it.


.......As a recent example of why we need to be diligent, we even had someone try to derail NVE's doorprize by placing an "anonymous" call to the local police telling them we had an "illegal raffle" happening at NVE... Amazing. They reviewed what we were doing, and actually stood there to be sure every technicality was followed, and of course deemed it legal... It's the world we live in. But at least it demonstrates we pass scrutiny because we do our homework.

So Angleiron, we'd love to, just can't! : )

I bought lots of tickets in the old days, but Im glad to see that gaming activities are no longer the backbone of a not-for-profit treasury.

Learning by the mistakes of others, and from ones own mistakes, has turned out to be a good thing here. The attorneys you hired essentially confirmed what you had already learned in 2013, just 3 years ago this month. Happy Anniversary.

Calling the Local Police about an ersatz MI 'door prize' would be a silly call. Might as well call animal control. That first MI event in NVE was tainted by a lot of prior bad-history. And some of the same players. Even Chrysler had reason to worry, and keep a distance. I bet there were several entities concerned enough to take a look to make sure the mold was broken. But you are still "wishing you could!"

[SmoknTires]

Well said. I definitely echo those words. Thanks Jon

[Viktimize]

It won't just be one of a kind because of NVE, but perhaps something else that adds even more significance.



Sweet. It would be great to see a car that was going to be significant or special to someone outside the club who didn't know what NVE was. That LE at NVE 1 with the Venzano interior was bloody perfect. Lucky Tony!!

[Vprbite]

From what I've gleamed since my short time living in AZ, you'd probably have brought one anyway...

You learn fast. Now you just have to guess who is carrying at any given time, me or Emily.