Question Regarding Track Etiquette

[PAVenomRT/10]

I took my son out for the first time in my new Viper ACR-E at NJMP Thunderbolt yesterday. With a passenger you are required to run in the intermediate run group which allows passing only on straight a ways. The cars in the group ranged from Z06's and Porsche Cup cars to Miatas and BMW sedans. We had a blast in the ACR-E. It did not disappoint. The grip of the Kumhos is very high (as good or better than Hoosiers which are great tires). The handling with the aero is unbelievable. AS a result, I was passing most if not all cars in the group. However, as required I always waited for a point by and gave plenty of room on passes and never got too close behind cars being overtaken. After a couple of sessions, the Director asked me to slow down a bit as I was running too fast for the group. I was surprised because there were no apparent issues on track and I was courteous and gave plenty of room as required for safety. I was a bit disappointed because a Track Day is all about having fun in a safe environment and comraderie with fellow drivers. This comment meant that somebody was not having fun apparently.
My question is do you think I was wrong for passing or do you think the comment was unjustified?
Thanks for your input.
PAVenomRT/10

[VENOM V]

His comment in my opinion was unjustified. I've never seen that. As long as you're courteous, no need to slow down. Can they bump you to a higher group? That's usually what they do here in CA, provided you are familiar with the higher group's passing rules.

That beast is looking good! Glad you had a chance to stretch its legs right.

[ViperTony]

Difficult to say...maybe you were too fast for your group and should've been bumped up? I've never been asked to slow down in a group but moved up if the director/instructors deemed appropriate. You weren't driving around like Ricky Bobby were you? :D Hopefully your son had a blast with you in the ACR. Nice pic!

[drabe]

I've been doing HPDE since the early 90s. As long as you are given a signal, you're good to go.

[Arizona Vipers]

As long as you didn't do anything "wrong", speed shouldn't matter in HPDE.
It's actually good to have cars that are much faster than the rest as that teaches the group to watch their mirror's, pay more attention and give point by's etc.

[Dr.Ron]

Right or wrong, I was taught to get on someone's butt until they point you by.

[kverges]

I suspect someone's perspective did not match your own and they complained.

As for "getting on someone's butt until they point you by," not sure if serious. Drive through pits for space and maybe mention to grid master that a car out there appears to lack mirrors and should be checked.

[Dr.Ron]

I was serious! When I first started HPDE days the instructor literally had me ride their butt until the point by. He said if we didn't do that we may never get the point by.

Having said that, that's not what I do, but if a long time goes by with no point by, I might get a bit closer to make sure I'm noticed.

Ron

[fuggles]

I had a similar experience with a group who shall remain nameless. Two of the organizers at different times asked questions and made comments such as, why are you in this group. how much experience do you have. you are scaring other drivers. you come up on the drivers too fast. you should move up. etc. To some degree I agree with their concerns. The viper is so fast that with even basic driver skills the car will be way faster than others in the group. However, in the intermediate group the drivers should be aware of cars coming from behind. Its a basic skill you must have while driving on a race track. It seems like whining to me. In my case, I said I would move up but they backed down and asked me to be mindful of the other drivers. I didn't slow down per se, but I did change my driving a bit. With the goal of helping the drivers better see me coming. If that makes sense. A more direct answer would be, they are whining. Slowing down is not the answer. Drivers in intermediate group should look in the rear view mirror. And expect that there are cars and drivers faster than them (this is a tough one with egos at stake).

[SOberman001]

what track day organizers where you with? I go to NJMP all the time on my bike and would love to take the Viper and the kids

[PAVenomRT/10]

Thanks for all your comments. I anticipated most would agree that some in the group were whiners. I recall when I was a less experienced going out for a session with some Viper CCoupes that were out for a shake down session prior to races scheduled for later in the day. They were amazingly fast and it helped teach me to keep an eye on my mirrors and just how fast some cars can go. I did not mind it at all. I would have moved up to the faster run group except the Drivers Club which sponsors the sessions has a rule that you must be certified by the Club to take passengers and you must run in the intermediate group, i.e., you cannot move up with a passenger. I agree with this but also think that following the passing rules and being courteous should be sufficient without the need to slow down.
PAVenomRT/10

[Topplayer]

Only thing I can think of is maybe you were coming up to fast on Newer drivers cars, freaking them out.
That happened to me a few years back, I was overtaking cars so fast that one guy looked in his mirror didn't see me than looked again freaked out and spun LOL
I think you should have been moved up not told to slow down.

As a NYCTVOA memeber hope to see you on track soon! NJMP is a great, hope to take my viper there ASAP!!

[PAVenomRT/10]

Topplayer,
You have a PM.
PAVenomRT/10

[RedTanRT/10]

Only thing I can think of is maybe you were coming up to fast on Newer drivers cars, freaking them out.
That happened to me a few years back, I was overtaking cars so fast that one guy looked in his mirror didn't see me than looked again freaked out and spun LOL
I think you should have been moved up not told to slow down.

These were my thoughts as I read the thread. Either someone complained you made them uncomfortable or the Director was concerned for you, (i.e. someone not seeing you close and cutting right in front of you off-line).

If you want to drive a fast car fast, in an intermediate group, you have to adjust.

[ek1]

Right or wrong, I was taught to get on someone's butt until they point you by.

Ditto

[ek1]

I took my son out for the first time in my new Viper ACR-E at NJMP Thunderbolt yesterday. With a passenger you are required to run in the intermediate run group which allows passing only on straight a ways. The cars in the group ranged from Z06's and Porsche Cup cars to Miatas and BMW sedans. We had a blast in the ACR-E. It did not disappoint. The grip of the Kumhos is very high (as good or better than Hoosiers which are great tires). The handling with the aero is unbelievable. AS a result, I was passing most if not all cars in the group. However, as required I always waited for a point by and gave plenty of room on passes and never got too close behind cars being overtaken. After a couple of sessions, the Director asked me to slow down a bit as I was running too fast for the group. I was surprised because there were no apparent issues on track and I was courteous and gave plenty of room as required for safety. I was a bit disappointed because a Track Day is all about having fun in a safe environment and comraderie with fellow drivers. This comment meant that somebody was not having fun apparently.
My question is do you think I was wrong for passing or do you think the comment was unjustified?
Thanks for your input.
PAVenomRT/10

Which organization did you run with? Getting my car end of this month and can't wait to see what it can do at NJMP!

[catwood]

I've run with a few groups in SoCal and I stick to the ones I know and trust as there are a couple here that will get you killed. Some of the groups that I know the organizer well will let me take my personal "instructor" for a few sessions. The get a black band and I return it to them when I'm done. it works out well and I stay within my normal group.

[kverges]

Seems a bit much to call the other driver(s) whiners based on one side of the story. I run a driving school and I've heard this story only to see the driver too close and agressive when I observed or rode with him. I'm not saying that's the story, but clearly someone was unhappy so some introspection is warranted. At the end of the day, it's a DE not a race and in a group that is by definition not advanced, likely because they don't have the best pace, car control or situational awareness skills. It is the overtaking Driver's responsibility to manage the pass, regardless of the skill or situational awareness of the driver in front. If the person in front is not pointing by, it's fine to move around in his mirror but if I saw the following driver riding his bumper I know who I'd black flag. That's a recipe for forcing a mistake or spin by the car in front and then collecting him.

Solution is to drive through pits and alert the grid master to the issue and let the other driver get black flagged and spoken to.

I am all for racing and love it and save the agression and calculated risks for that. DE is a non-contact sport and to not be the prick trying to "win" the DE. Let the Porsche guys go for the DE trophy.

[Viper Girl]

Moved thread from Gen V to Track talk...

Carry on...

[PAVenomRT/10]

I agree with you Keith. DE is all about having fun and increasing car control skills on the track without racing and being overly aggressive. I didn't feel I was being aggressive and passed with caution and followed the rules, but obviously somebody disagreed. When I run with this group again, I will keep that in mind.
PAVenomRT/10

[kverges]

I agree with you Keith. DE is all about having fun and increasing car control skills on the track without racing and being overly aggressive. I didn't feel I was being aggressive and passed with caution and followed the rules, but obviously somebody disagreed. When I run with this group again, I will keep that in mind.
PAVenomRT/10

Well said. Some folks get wigged out on track easily and IMO intermediate is the most risky. Fast but lacking that extra to be experienced and some are gunning to " move up" while others are barely past novice. Highest percentage of spins and offs and the ACR-E is so fast some will think you "came out of nowhere" when coming up behind as the ACR corners and accelerates faster than almost anything. Just go with the flow and use the slow bits to cool the fragile Kumhos

[FrankBarba]

I feel you pain. I have been in you situation before and they try to make you feel guilty for having
such an awesome car. I came up thru the ranks of DE also. As my confidence increased so did my
driving ability.

Next time this happens ask to be placed in the instructors group. Only difference
no pass by signal. But you will learn the line quicker to be faster.....

[kverges]

The real fix is to start racing. I still enjoy the occasional DE as a low key thing but it's like kissing your sister. Racing is most fun you can have with clothes on.

[ACR Steve]

Its a catch 22 for organizer . Move you up to advance without you having the experience is an issue . Keeping you down and scarring other intermediate drivers is a problem as well. The ACR is so fast that creates its own issues. (not a bad thing )

It is about fun and staying within ones own learning curve not the cars. Its a very fine line. Being the guy that ends up paying for more crash damage in DE then anyone in the US I can tell you most cars are insanely more capable then there driver. Being fast and being online in control don't always happen together. Not saying this is you at all just my pet peeve with the way our HPDE system is taught by some instructors.

[Leslie]

If a student has the skills to handle their car and demonstrate it consistently lap for lap, I start encouraging them to stay back until the passing opportunity, then give the car being passed a Viper enema. Hehe.

[viperr]

I was at a local track recently taking my 2014 GTS out for the first time. There were a couple really quick cars who would come up on me while I was sorting things out and I gladly pointed them by so I could get on with my sorting out the Gen V (previous Viper was 99 RT-10 which was set up for track). I was very polite, but I got one comment from an instructor riding along in a Callaway Corvette. He said I didn't point to pass 2 straight times. He said they were right behind me and I wasn't looking for them. I was trying to pass a slower car then , but was watching my mirrors. I told them I was sorry, but at my driving schools they taught us to "present ourselves" by going out a half a car width to make sure you show up in the drivers mirror. The Callaway was very low and the GTS has spotty rear vision if you are right on my tail you may not be seen. It was no big deal and it was the first time I had been told about not pointing by. The nice thing is that it wound up be a word to the wise for both cars.

[Dr.Ron]

Hey George, clear out your PM box. I'm trying to reach you. PM me after you've made some room.
Thanks!
Ron

[MomentaryRacing]

I work as racing school instructor (well, one of my jobs!). It is often difficult to sort out who's letting whom by when multiple cars stack out behind one car, especially in intermediate or novice groups. Everyone feels they should be getting let by first! I am sure the instructor was reacting to his driver getting irritated, although he should had focused on de-escalating his driver's stress level, not giving you "feedback". But, hard to tell for sure without being there.

When I coach HPDE or even race drivers, and see them get all angry about someone not letting them by, I like making them drive behind slower cars for a while, until they learn to relax.

Here's what I usually teach: "When I am in your situation, I like to let car the behind me by, even though I am under my pace due to car in front. This often attracts attention of driver in a slower car, who thinks he is making me work hard keeping up with him - then as he lets the 3rd car by, I stay as close to it as I can, so the driver of the first car has no choice, but to let both of us by. Then, of course, I get to sort out with the 3rd car who's got the pace :) but at that point, he knows I let him (or her!) by before, so the favor would be returned. Everyone ends their session happy.

In any case it did not sound like you did anything outrageous. It is not necessary to poke the bumper out to present for a let by, but it certainly helps.

Igor

[stradman]

HI Guys sorry to resurrect this thread but I thought it was very interesting to read how you guys work on track Stateside-interested to hear this pointing business. We are quite different hear in Europe. Can I ask are you able instead to just indicate with your indicator what side the guy can pass you? Its just that at high speed, negotiating near a corner the last thing I would want to do is take one of my hands off the steering wheel to point out-and anyway I don't usually track with the windows open.

[Purple Haze]

Good point and funny!!!


If a student has the skills to handle their car and demonstrate it consistently lap for lap, I start encouraging them to stay back until the passing opportunity, then give the car being passed a Viper enema. Hehe.

[AZTVR]

HI Guys sorry to resurrect this thread but I thought it was very interesting to read how you guys work on track Stateside-interested to hear this pointing business. We are quite different hear in Europe. Can I ask are you able instead to just indicate with your indicator what side the guy can pass you? Its just that at high speed, negotiating near a corner the last thing I would want to do is take one of my hands off the steering wheel to point out-and anyway I don't usually track with the windows open. Point-by passing is usually only required in the less experienced run groups and often only on straight sections. By the time people are experienced enough for passing in corners, they are in a group that does not require point-bys. Every one of the event organizers that I have driven with here requires driving with windows down, (unless it is raining), for ease of access by safety personnel in case of an accident.

[stradman]

Point-by passing is usually only required in the less experienced run groups and often only on straight sections. By the time people are experienced enough for passing in corners, they are in a group that does not require point-bys. Every one of the event organizers that I have driven with here requires driving with windows down, (unless it is raining), for ease of access by safety personnel in case of an accident.

Ok that's interesting to know. Here in Europe you don't need to have windows down. Depending on organiser we can also pass either side as well.