Is SRT really paying attention to what's going on?

[Troublemaker]

I don't mean this to be a jab, more constructive criticism. The code issue is a dead horse, but I think it's really hurting the sale of all of their new cars, the Viper included. When I was looking for a car anything after 06 was completely out of the question. As much as I wanted a Gen IV, that platforms computer put it at the back of the list as the car just was what it was, no further potential. Now the new car has exactly the same limitations.

I think a lot of buyers look at what the car can be sold at a few years down the road, and any used car buyer that has any interest in performance modifications won't even give anything from 08 up a second look because of the tuning, which in turn causes the used car market to dwindle which drives down the used car price, which means more depreciation and a more apprehensive buyer of the new car. It had to be a run on, sorry.

But it does and is effecting the new car purchase in more ways than one. Disregarding the poor magazine reviews, the new car is great as almost every GenV buyer will attest to. But at this point you are not going to be able to do much more with the car to make it much faster than what the mags tested.

It really is a shame to watch such a great car fail for reasons other than the car itself. If it was a bad car, so be it. But the fact that the car is great makes it that much worse. We all know the car has great potential, but as it sits right now nobody outside the passionate Viper community ever will see much more than the piss poor track tests that have taken place.

[Janni]

I fully believe they arereally, REALLY paying attention. The past 12th out of 12 and the problems with the press car that was provided - well...

I hope the VOA can help get the word out about this car,help the dealers sell them and rekindle some passion.

As an FYI - Jalopnik did an article about the Viper - and it told the magazine writers to put their big girl panties on and stop placing the Viper poorly because of MPG and ease of entry and start focusing on PERFORMANCE. Not fogiving the poor quality car debacle- but it did provide a better "real driver" perspective.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/motor-trends-best-drivers-car-is-not-true-to-its-name-1444722597

[Troublemaker]

I do hope your right. The manufacturer built a great car but has done enough damage to kill the car by itself, let the end user and/or the aftermarket take it from there and show its true potential which means releasing the codes. The Vette to me is direct competition for the Viper and the base model from GM with just bolt ons is going to be right on the Vipers bumper if not pulling on it. Once the Z06 and ZR1 are out, the Viper is going to need a little help.

Is SRT/Mopar capable of making a computer(for offroad use) that can replace the factory neutering unit? To me they are the only hope if the codes can not be released?

[XSnake]

Is SRT/Mopar capable of making a computer(for offroad use) that can replace the factory neutering unit? To me they are the only hope if the codes can not be released?

The Mopar controller is the only option now without going Motec, or AEM Infiniti. SCT is working on something new for the Viper platform but the Gen 4/5 cars will be awhile.

[Troublemaker]

The Mopar controller is the only option now without going Motec, or AEM Infiniti. Tis working on something new for the Viper platform but the Gen 4/5 cars will be awhile.

Its good to know they are at least working on it. But they are so far behind, it really is hurting their cause and has been hurting their cause since 08.

[FLATOUT]

Unfortunately SRT will continue to lose market share if they don't make the gen 4-5's programmable. I know I'll switch if it doesn't change by the time I'm ready to get something else (2-4 years).

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

ITS COMING! SRT is LISTENING and acting......

I know for an absolute FACT that a Gen 5 Mopar Performance PCM is in the works, probably for a near-term release. SEMA is in 2 weeks, and I suspect that info about the unit will be released there. A well-known and respected SRT engineer was testing/calibrating this PCM in the Viper Cup Pace Car at Watkins Glen a couple months back. It was cool to see him and a vendor-collaborator making realtime changes to the exhaust note via his laptop in the Viper, by changing the fuel-cutoff timing and other parameters..... We even "displayed" the resulting BURBLE to a convoy of Vette owners parked on the front straight. I have pics of the Car, the Vettes behind, and the actual programming going on. I may need to get a baby-sitter to post for me? {Im still a dinosaur about posting pix. I never succeeded on 3 other forums, and just dont get it. }

http://i.imgur.com/8E2ARBE.jpg


q: "I'm not stupid, I just have not learned it yet" Martin Sheen as Pres Bartlett/West Wing


I do hope your right. The manufacturer built a great car but has done enough damage to kill the car by itself, let the end user and/or the aftermarket take it from there and show its true potential which means releasing the codes. The Vette to me is direct competition for the Viper and the base model from GM with just bolt ons is going to be right on the Vipers bumper if not pulling on it. Once the Z06 and ZR1 are out, the Viper is going to need a little help.

Is SRT/Mopar capable of making a computer(for offroad use) that can replace the factory neutering unit? To me they are the only hope if the codes can not be released?

[Westxsrt10]

Photo posted just fine Jon.
I'm looking forward to the day I can data log and tune my Gen 4..... please listen SRT!

[99RT10]

I highly doubt SRT had the forsight to make the Mopar controller useable under boost. So in the end, the car will be upgradeable but only to a certain point.

[FLATOUT]

That's good Jon hopefully that will at least keep guys from going into reduced power mode after a burnout at the drag strip.

[Troublemaker]

At the rate this is going they are going to need to get inside the software just to keep up with the base model Vette with bolt ons. This is nuts and not a peep out of SRTs engineers to even set the record straight. Maybe it's being judgemental, but SRT seems to have botched this car up from the get go. It's a great car, but they haven't seemed to have gotten anything right after the initial build. They really need to throw the owners something here, or the handful of cars actually built right now will become the final FEs. I don't mean to come off completely negative, but it's hard to stay positive.

[SmoknTires]

Yes, PCM is indeed on it's way for the GenV. There are also some other goodies that they're working on for the GenV.

I can tell you by talking to Ralph and the gang is that they listen AND are aware. There is a dynamic we all need to know, it doesn't make it better but it's a big part of the reason for certain decisions, is that the corporation drives much of this. For instance... you want a paddle shift? (I've been lobbying Ralph for some time!) Well it costs unbelievable cash to make one that'll fit/work in the viper, but the kicker is that most of the car needs to support itself financially. Being a halo car and providing benefits to all car lines, isn't all they're looking at - it's got to be viable on it's own. But toys are on the way. I can't wait to get the PCM so I can throw the belanger headers/exhaust on there too.

Can't wait for SEMA, there will indeed be a Viper there (actually more than one - but outside of Chrysler). The color, will be cool...

[FLATOUT]

Sounds good at least a PCM will be available for the Gen V platform so they can get out there and run them without the car shutting down on them.

[NEWREDRT10]

I agree about the Viper taking a fall. They seem to keep giving it to people who are known to dislike Vipers. As a result bad reviews are given. But true believers there are some little things in the works like maybe 900 BH. I just can remember where it was at the time, I just know it being done by the right people. I'll make inquires as to how the passionate Viper can get things started to break light speed.

[Nine Ball]

I know for a fact that some SRT engineers monitor these sites, I've had contact with them. They are just reluctant to respond in public. I always try to share what I learn, however. A few others here do, also.

I'm not really interested in a Mopar PCM, that is just a temporary band-aid mod for a couple bolt-ons like headers. The Gen 4/5 really need the ability to be custom dyno tuned. Canned tune PCM's have to consider climate and density altitude for worst-case regions, to prevent the cars from running lean or rich. They also have to target for worst-case fuel octane, as some states only have 91 vs 93. Some might only have 89? These generic tunes aren't nearly as good as a custom dyno tune, based on your specific vehicle, in your specific area/climate. They are probably leaving 10-15% on the table, by trying to make things conservative/safe enough for living on top of a mountain, or in the middle of a desert.

We need to be able to custom tune the fuel maps, timing, injector sizing, and the availability to at least go to a 2 Bar MAP sensor for boosted applications. Toss in a few toggle switches to handle the OBD2 check engine codes on/off/ready. Basic SCT tuning type software. If Mopar doesn't wish to market this type of software, perhaps they could team up with a company like SCT or HPTuners and share what they know, to keep the R&D costs down. Let the aftermarket do the packaging, GUI, and marketing of the product. Just help make it available, that is all we are asking (begging?) for.

[F2V]

Yes, PCM is indeed on it's way for the GenV. There are also some other goodies that they're working on for the GenV.

I can tell you by talking to Ralph and the gang is that they listen AND are aware. There is a dynamic we all need to know, it doesn't make it better but it's a big part of the reason for certain decisions, is that the corporation drives much of this. For instance... you want a paddle shift? (I've been lobbying Ralph for some time!) Well it costs unbelievable cash to make one that'll fit/work in the viper, but the kicker is that most of the car needs to support itself financially. Being a halo car and providing benefits to all car lines, isn't all they're looking at - it's got to be viable on it's own. But toys are on the way. I can't wait to get the PCM so I can throw the belanger headers/exhaust on there too.

Can't wait for SEMA, there will indeed be a Viper there (actually more than one - but outside of Chrysler). The color, will be cool...

Thank you for the positive and rather informative post...good news!

[mjorgensen]

The PCM has long been done and ready, unfortunately the real problem is being made by people completely outside SRT and unless the suits can be convinced to let it out we will have to just wait. On a positive note it looks like the new Belanger headers with Cal spec cats will likely be usable without a PCM and without a CEL. I have 3 sets coming to install and evaluate probably be here in a week or so, according to Lou they pull extremely hard so I can't wait, and will dyno them while they are here.

[FLATOUT]

The PCM has long been done and ready, unfortunately the real problem is being made by people completely outside SRT and unless the suits can be convinced to let it out we will have to just wait. On a positive note it looks like the new Belanger headers with Cal spec cats will likely be usable without a PCM and without a CEL. I have 3 sets coming to install and evaluate probably be here in a week or so, according to Lou they pull extremely hard so I can't wait, and will dyno them while they are here.

Well if the management wants to know why so many Viper performance nuts are switching to Corvette they can rest assure knowing that a good deal of it has to do with the aftermarkets ability to tune the platform.

[mjorgensen]

Well if the management wants to know why so many Viper performance nuts are switching to Corvette they can rest assure knowing that a good deal of it has to do with the aftermarkets ability to tune the platform.

Management knows what is being asked for, the people that make legal decisions probably don't think about things like this though so the good people at SRT have to hope just like the rest of us that decisions will be made taking that into account...

[FLATOUT]

Management knows what is being asked for, the people that make legal decisions probably don't think about things like this though so the good people at SRT have to hope just like the rest of us that decisions will be made taking that into account...

Thanks for the insite, it's tough when your hands are tied behind your back when it comes to decision making.

[mjorgensen]

Thanks for the insite, it's tough when your hands are tied behind your back when it comes to decision making.

Yeah especially when you are the ones taking the beating because of it. I feel sorry for the SRT guys on the front lines, the ones that have true passion for what they've created and have had to sit and watch the dissing they are getting...

[Nine Ball]

If they don't sell vehicles, then there is no budget for the legal team. Selling vehicles should be priority #1. Legal team should take the backseat, not the steering wheel.

[mjorgensen]

If they don't sell vehicles, then there is no budget for the legal team. Selling vehicles should be priority #1. Legal team should take the backseat, not the steering wheel.

Agreed Tony, but not reality in this day and age you know that ;-)

[FLATOUT]

Agreed Tony, but not reality in this day and age you know that ;-)

It will be when the pink slip hits them in the face, or we as a community no longer have a Viper buy, and you no longer have a Viper to sell.

That's the reality.

[mjorgensen]

It will be when the pink slip hits them in the face, or we as a community no longer have a Viper buy, and you no longer have a Viper to sell.

That's the reality.

Agreed... although I just want the aftermarket business!! :-) that would help everyone right?

[FLATOUT]

Agreed... although I just want the aftermarket business!! :-) that would help everyone right?

HAHA yes very good point :)

[Wheelman]

IMO, as I recently learned from jack and nine ball, the inability to even dyno or drag these cars is a pretty big black eye. A larger turn off than future modibility.

I sure hope there is a firmware update for ALL gen V's to fix this.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard a response from mopar/SRT on dyno and 1/4 issues?

[Angleiron]

Management knows what is being asked for, the people that make legal decisions probably don't think about things like this though so the good people at SRT have to hope just like the rest of us that decisions will be made taking that into account...

I think it goes deeper than legal people making that decision. Is GM in any better position to allow cars that are priced at 1/2 the cost of a new Viper to be tuned easily? More people will always be in vettes than Vipers which if there was a true legal issue by allowing cars to make more performance then that would be a legal nightmare for GM.

[FLATOUT]

This is my main concern, I just want them to work when we go to the track. The Mopar PCM for the Gen 4's at least allows this to happen and makes adding boltons to the car doable. I am ok with that, I know a factory canned tune will never optomize everything, but atleast it's something.


IMO, as I recently learned from jack and nine ball, the inability to even dyno or drag these cars is a pretty big black eye. A larger turn off than future modibility.

I sure hope there is a firmware update for ALL gen V's to fix this.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard a response from mopar/SRT on dyno and 1/4 issues?

[mjorgensen]

I think it goes deeper than legal people making that decision. Is GM in any better position to allow cars that are priced at 1/2 the cost of a new Viper to be tuned easily? More people will always be in vettes than Vipers which if there was a true legal issue by allowing cars to make more performance then that would be a legal nightmare for GM.

What I'm talking about is their releasing an off road PCM, as for the open tuning issue it has been talked about before, SRT/Chrysler does not own the hardware or software to release that ability. Once again shackling SRT and making them out to be the bad guys even though they aren't.

[Viper Specialty]

The Mopar controller is the only option now without going Motec, or AEM Infiniti. SCT is working on something new for the Viper platform but the Gen 4/5 cars will be awhile.

I think you have them mixed up. All Gen-4 cars have been Motec or Pectel, not Infinity- I believe infinity is still in testing for G4. Pectel is also a far nicer hardware setup than Motec for the Viper application.

There is something else in the works too :D

However, SCT, while they are working on something new for the Viper, to my knowledge does not have any current intentions to move down the Gen-4/5 line. The only thing that would sway that decision is of course continued large production/sales numbers for the Gen-5, as that is increasing the market share for a potential product.

[Angleiron]

What I'm talking about is their releasing an off road PCM, as for the open tuning issue it has been talked about before, SRT/Chrysler does not own the hardware or software to release that ability. Once again shackling SRT and making them out to be the bad guys even though they aren't.

If SRT released the code so other tuners could work with it then it would not be necessary for them to have to provide their own performance PCM. This sounds more like a money issue than legal one. If SRT is the only one that has a performance PCM then you have little to no choice then to go through them.

[mjorgensen]

If SRT released the code so other tuners could work with it then it would not be necessary for them to have to provide their own performance PCM. This sounds more like a money issue than legal one. If SRT is the only one that has a performance PCM then you have little to no choice then to go through them.

"SRT/Chrysler does not own the hardware or software to release that ability"

[Whitemamba]

"SRT/Chrysler does not own the hardware or software to release that ability"

I seem to remember that it was a company from England that owned the software/engine management program. I believe it is Zytek Automotive from the UK. But while searching for the information about them, I came across the Hennessey 700R. It states that:

"Starting from the beginning, the 725 HP obtained by the 700R package was attained by adding high-flow cylinder heads and catalytic converters, a new stainless steel exhaust system with 3-inch tubes, and a K&N air filter. The work was then completed with an ECU calibration."


http://www.topspeed.com/cars/hennessey/2013-hennessey-venom-1000-700r-ar135582.html

[mjorgensen]

I seem to remember that it was a company from England that owned the software/engine management program. I believe it is Zytek Automotive from the UK. But while searching for the information about them, I came across the Hennessey 700R. It states that:

"Starting from the beginning, the 725 HP obtained by the 700R package was attained by adding high-flow cylinder heads and catalytic converters, a new stainless steel exhaust system with 3-inch tubes, and a K&N air filter. The work was then completed with an ECU calibration."


http://www.topspeed.com/cars/hennessey/2013-hennessey-venom-1000-700r-ar135582.html

Trouble is I have never seen an actual car, I think this is a marketing ploy to lure a first buyer in... There is no way he is tuning the factory PCM.

[ViperSmith]

Mark,

What really needs to be relayed to SRT is to get out in front of this whole people can't dyno or drag race issue. The ECU/Whatever causing the car to go into limp mode needs to be sorted quickly. It is a shame people (Nine Ball/Jack B) aren't getting answers from SRT - quickly.

I think us Gen V owners are giving a lot of slack to SRT, but they need to be helping.

Just my $0.02.

Harold

[mjorgensen]

Mark,

What really needs to be relayed to SRT is to get out in front of this whole people can't dyno or drag race issue. The ECU/Whatever causing the car to go into limp mode needs to be sorted quickly. It is a shame people (Nine Ball/Jack B) aren't getting answers from SRT - quickly.

I think us Gen V owners are giving a lot of slack to SRT, but they need to be helping.

Just my $0.02.

Harold

I agree something should happen soon, I know that the SRT group as a whole are not just sitting around watching this fall apart, I know that they are frantically looking at and working on solutions and answers for customers although nothing ever happens as fast as we want. Unless of course you want a car in and out of my shop same day with 24 hours of work to do LOL.

[ViperSmith]

I agree something should happen soon, I know that the SRT group as a whole are not just sitting around watching this fall apart, I know that they are frantically looking at and working on solutions and answers for customers although nothing ever happens as fast as we want. Unless of course you want a car in and out of my shop same day with 24 hours of work to do LOL.

I hope so. I mean, if anything something from SRT "Hey we are working on it" would do wonders. As we all know, a lack of info leads to people making assumptions!

We all want the car to do well and we just need some piecemeal to calm our nerves!

[Whitemamba]

Trouble is I have never seen an actual car, I think this is a marketing ploy to lure a first buyer in... There is no way he is tuning the factory PCM.

Yeah I bet you are 100% correct.

I was looking on Zytek's website and it looks like they are pretty involved and quite successful in the engine management business. That may have something to do with why they are keeping their stuff locked up. They have been very successful at Lemans in the LMP1 and LMP2 class.

[Troublemaker]

Does this mean the entire engine management system was outsourced? Hell, even if they didn't have it all locked up, if I was Chevy I would male sure it stayed locked up.

My wife and I went out to take a look at the GenV just in the off the wall chance I liked it enough to trade in my 96. As much as I liked the fact the car looked very similar, the locked up computer was always in the back of head. And I still can't stomach how much they want for stripes. Thankfully they only had GTSs in stock, it made my choice easy.

[SmoknTires]

The one thing I'll say generally is how no one really knows how much the SRT guys put on the line for the new (and even the past car). But especially the GenV - personal risk, time away from loved ones, and significant career altering decisions for their leadership... And they did it in style. Ralph more than anyone laid his whole future on the line for this car, and when people say he's the savior, they're not kidding. When you're around these people, you truly get the sense of family (and they're a small family). They LIVE AND BREATHE this car daily. You can't help but be affected by them, because you see that it's ok to be nuts about a car - but also love something so much that you'll throw your life at it. You don't know how close we were to not having the bloodline continue. That's why we NEED to support these guys. It's ok to provide them input, but understand it's not them sitting behind the scenes making all the decisions. A lot has changed in the company, some for the better, but it brings with it new struggles.

Be a fan of the car and also a fan of theirs. Regardless of some of the decisions we're not aware of, what we do see is profound. I do agree, I wish they'd say just a "smidge" on future product. ;.) but we all know their statement on that - and they have their reasons.

Once we get the relationship with SRT formally and publicly in place, we can maybe get some answers. It's been a while since we've had a public Q&A session and those were really cool.

[F2V]

SmoknTires: The voice of reason, common sense and good judgement! In many conversations with Prefix guys and Mark Trostle, I can tell you they not only all 'live and breathe' it...it is in their DNA.

[Newport Viper]

I hate to take the other side of the coin on this one since I am not the argumentative type BUT there are only 80-100 guys that really care about breaking into the GEN V ECU. (I'm not talking about the shut down bugs the ECU has now) With 25,000+ Vipers built so far I bet 1,200 have actually played with it. If they opened it up maybe 40 of those 80-100 guys will step up and buy it. That is not going to cure the problem. I just don't see that the ECU matters that much in the BIG sales picture. There are other issues some in control of SRT (Marketing) & others not. (Economy)

[Troublemaker]

I hate to take the other side of the coin on this one since I am not the argumentative type BUT there are only 80-100 guys that really care about breaking into the GEN V ECU. (I'm not talking about the shut down bugs the ECU has now) With 25,000+ Vipers built so far I bet 1,200 have actually played with it. If they opened it up maybe 40 of those 80-100 guys will step up and buy it. That is not going to cure the problem. I just don't see that the ECU matters that much in the BIG sales picture. There are other issues some in control of SRT (Marketing) & others not. (Economy)

The economy is unarguable, the marketing has been less than stellar also. Disregarding 08 and up its hard to find a Viper anywhere near stock. Why, the computers up to 06 let the end user do whatever they wanted. Have you noticed that the fastest Vipers in the world are Gen 2&3? Right now what they have for a Halo car is a Neutered Nanny Rocket(with some first year bugs). The bugs are expected for a new car, it just happens, but the lack of response or recall to fix the bugs are what's bothering people. We all know the 8.4 has a whole lot of untapped potential, and I look at further tuning option when purchasing a car, which kind of drives me nuts with the 4&5. Right now people are going to get used to watching the Vette hand the Viper it's butt at the track, it's going to happen. Just because only a select few may take advantage of an unlocked PCM, those select few are important as a rolling billboard for the company.

[Angleiron]

A lot has to do with bang for the buck. You can be a Viper fan all you want, and I have no problem having my butt handed to me in my car because it is 11+ years old and completely stock. If I popped for a Gen V and a car that cost 1/2 as much could walk me then that would be embarrassing. When the Viper first came out it's main bragging point was being the highest HP car at that time. It was touted as being raw, unrefined, but had brutal torque and was the highest HP car at that time.

You don't bring a knife to a gun fight...and the Gen V Viper needed to be a Desert Eagle when it came out.

[Viper Girl]

Have you noticed that the fastest Vipers in the world are Gen 2&3?
The Viper track lap records have been set by stock Gen IV cars, with the exception of one...

MotorSport Ranch (full course), Cresson, Texas 2:19.00
Willow Springs Raceway, Rosamond, Calif 1:26.00
Putnam Park, Mount Meridian, Ind. 1:12.60
No Problem Raceway, Belle Rose, La. 1:16.90
Buttonwillow Raceway Park, Buttonwillow, Calif. 1:55.70
Autobahn Country Club, Joliet, Ill. 2:37.70
Virginia International Raceway, Alton, Va. 2:48.60
Spring Mountain (2.2 mile layout), Pahrump, Nev. 1:45.40
Nelson Ledges Road Course, Garrettsville, Ohio 1:08.90
Gingerman Raceway, South Haven, Mich. 1:26.70
Top Gear USA (El Toro), Irvine, Calif. 1:22.00
Miller Motorsport Park (perimeter), Tooele, Utah 1:59.99
Monticello Motor Club, Monticello, N.Y. 2:26.37
Sebring Full Course, Sebring, Fla. 2:19.47
New Jersey Motorsports Park, Millville, N.J. 1:28.08
Texas World Speedway, College Station, Texas 1:47.56
Grattan Raceway, Belding, Mich. 1:22.70
Daytona Raceway, Daytona, Fl. 1:54.05
Laguna Seca Raceway, Salinas. Calif 1:33.62

and of course the Nürburgring Nordschleife, Nürburg, Germany @ 7:12.13 that stood until recently.

[Nine Ball]

I hate to take the other side of the coin on this one since I am not the argumentative type BUT there are only 80-100 guys that really care about breaking into the GEN V ECU. (I'm not talking about the shut down bugs the ECU has now) With 25,000+ Vipers built so far I bet 1,200 have actually played with it. If they opened it up maybe 40 of those 80-100 guys will step up and buy it. That is not going to cure the problem. I just don't see that the ECU matters that much in the BIG sales picture. There are other issues some in control of SRT (Marketing) & others not. (Economy)

I agree, when considering the new car sales. But, not being able to tune the Gen 4/5 cars will also hurt their resale values, for those of you that do not plan on keeping your cars forever. Shoppers buying second hand, generally are the modders. Look at all the modified Ford GT's out there now, where the first wave of owners rarely touched or drove them at all. Look at how well the Gen 3 coupe prices have held. Eventually, the modders buy these cars, and they won't touch a car that cannot be custom tuned.

[Troublemaker]

The Viper track lap records have been set by stock Gen IV cars, with the exception of one...

MotorSport Ranch (full course), Cresson, Texas 2:19.00
Willow Springs Raceway, Rosamond, Calif 1:26.00
Putnam Park, Mount Meridian, Ind. 1:12.60
No Problem Raceway, Belle Rose, La. 1:16.90
Buttonwillow Raceway Park, Buttonwillow, Calif. 1:55.70
Autobahn Country Club, Joliet, Ill. 2:37.70
Virginia International Raceway, Alton, Va. 2:48.60
Spring Mountain (2.2 mile layout), Pahrump, Nev. 1:45.40
Nelson Ledges Road Course, Garrettsville, Ohio 1:08.90
Gingerman Raceway, South Haven, Mich. 1:26.70
Top Gear USA (El Toro), Irvine, Calif. 1:22.00
Miller Motorsport Park (perimeter), Tooele, Utah 1:59.99
Monticello Motor Club, Monticello, N.Y. 2:26.37
Sebring Full Course, Sebring, Fla. 2:19.47
New Jersey Motorsports Park, Millville, N.J. 1:28.08
Texas World Speedway, College Station, Texas 1:47.56
Grattan Raceway, Belding, Mich. 1:22.70
Daytona Raceway, Daytona, Fl. 1:54.05
Laguna Seca Raceway, Salinas. Calif 1:33.62

and of course the Nürburgring Nordschleife, Nürburg, Germany @ 7:12.13 that stood until recently.

I guess this is argueing semantics right now, but that to me that is the best performing or best track car, and that I agree with. What I was getting at was more 1/4, 1/2 and mile cars. The earlier gens are still the only ones that even run them competitively even though the 4&5 are more powerful factory car. Please don't take this as a bash of the cars, moreso the lack of support from the factory or aftermarket in regards to tuning.

[Viper Girl]

To have the Gen IV's do so well, without being able to unlock is an interesting point to me. Not meant as an argument by any means.

[Troublemaker]

I couldn't agree more, but the trouble with being at the top is everyone is gunning for you. They will up their game and you can either do the same or you will be replaced.

[Angleiron]

To have the Gen IV's do so well, without being able to unlock is an interesting point to me. Not meant as an argument by any means.

Do well?...that is for only those who track their cars. That is a small minority of people in the big scheme of things and in the sales of the car. I very much doubt that SRT is depending on everyone who buys the GenV to be doing so for the sole reason of tracking the car. You pop $100K + it needs to hold it's own on the street against the competition. People who have taken the car to the drag strip have to do funky things to even get the car down the track...and that should not be happening.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I hate to take the other side of the coin on this one since I am not the argumentative type BUT there are only 80-100 guys that really care about breaking into the GEN V ECU. (I'm not talking about the shut down bugs the ECU has now) With 25,000+ Vipers built so far I bet 1,200 have actually played with it. If they opened it up maybe 40 of those 80-100 guys will step up and buy it. That is not going to cure the problem. I just don't see that the ECU matters that much in the BIG sales picture....... (Economy)

Absolutley CORRECT. A tiny handful of 'buying decisions' are made on a $120K+ Exotic car based on whether or not it can be modded with hardware OR software. Small-Import buyers 'gottahaveCHIP' the day they buy the car....gottahave the extra HP they could not afford otherwise. Who the hell does NOT buy a Viper because the 'chip' equivalent is not available to make +25HP or allow for more elaborate modding? Small %......

Another small % wants to beat the CheckEngineLite emissions game so they had add headers/exhaust. Period. They will wait a few more weeks for the mods and that PCM.

[Viper Girl]

Do well?...that is for only those who track their cars. That is a small minority of people in the big scheme of things and in the sales of the car. I very much doubt that SRT is depending on everyone who buys the GenV to be doing so for the sole reason of tracking the car. You pop $100K + it needs to hold it's own on the street against the competition. People who have taken the car to the drag strip have to do funky things to even get the car down the track...and that should not be happening.

Where did I say we don't need the ability to unlock?

I do think looking at the track lap records set by stock Gen IV's are interesting. It took a car with a price tag over $800K to unseat the Gen IV record on the 'Ring...

[Chorps]

Absolutley CORRECT. A tiny handful of 'buying decisions' are made on a $120K+ Exotic car based on whether or not it can be modded with hardware OR software. Small-Import buyers 'gottahaveCHIP' the day they buy the car....gottahave the extra HP they could not afford otherwise. Who the hell does NOT buy a Viper because the 'chip' equivalent is not available to make +25HP or allow for more elaborate modding? Small %......

Another small % wants to beat the CheckEngineLite emissions game so they had add headers/exhaust. Period. They will wait a few more weeks for the mods and that PCM.

Junk the skip shift too, but that doesn't really matter for a lot that market because most wanted a 2 pedal vehicle anyhow. :P

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I was wrong....... Mopar did NOT debut the G5 Performance PCM at SEMA as we had all hoped. Citing 'legal-certification issues' that must be resolved on this otherwise-ready future product. Did NOT debut. Dang..... But they do have a spiffy-Mustang-Blue GTS there !


[QUOTE=JonB ~ PartsRack;1340]ITS COMING! SRT is LISTENING and acting......

I know for an absolute FACT that a Gen 5 Mopar Performance PCM is in the works, probably for a near-term release. SEMA is in 2 weeks, and I suspect that info about the unit will be released there.

[ACRucrazy]

From the latest Viper Magazine, answer by Herb Helbig:


Q: "I just picked up my 2013 Viper, she's a beauty! When will Mopar engine controller available so I can have a few more ponies?"

A: "The Mopar controller is under development as I write this. That's the good news.... The not so good news is that the EPA/CARB is trying to outlaw any offroad calibrations and make them illegal. Their positions is if it can be put on a street car, it's illegal. My guess is the calibration will be completed but it will be on hold until the Feds render the verdict."

I have heard this similar type of reply more than once now.

[ViperGTS]

in the not too far distance, the NSA will have real time data from your car driving around. Position (of course!), speed, rpm, gear, what music you are listening to, whether you are buckled up, CEL ON?, etc...stay tuned! No more FUN, except you drive a vintage car.

P.S.: Enzo Ferrari said once: "the Willys Jeep is Americas only real sports car!"

[Troublemaker]

Whats to say you didn't turn the street car into a dedicated racecar? I wonder if this only applies to OEM. It might be easier to establish a relationship with a trusted aftermarket tuner and turn over the R&D info to them and let them take it from there. I don't think any of the other brands are having this issue, it might be because the aftermarket is creating it, not the manufacturer.

These things will have Classic plates on them by the time the goverment comes up with an answer.

[ViperSmith]

Jon, is there ANYTHING that was debuted at SEMA for the Viper?

It just feels like SRT doesn't care. What is going on!

[Troublemaker]

in the not too far distance, the NSA will have real time data from your car driving around. Position (of course!), speed, rpm, gear, what music you are listening to, whether you are buckled up, CEL ON?, etc...stay tuned! No more FUN, except you drive a vintage car.

P.S.: Enzo Ferrari said once: "the Willys Jeep is Americas only real sports car!"

I guess this will have to do then

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IAoeyAJ6XXk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DIAoeyAJ6XXk#

[mjorgensen]

in the not too far distance, the NSA will have real time data from your car driving around. Position (of course!), speed, rpm, gear, what music you are listening to, whether you are buckled up, CEL ON?, etc...stay tuned! No more FUN, except you drive a vintage car.

P.S.: Enzo Ferrari said once: "the Willys Jeep is Americas only real sports car!"

:confused::orange:
630

[mjorgensen]

Jon, is there ANYTHING that was debuted at SEMA for the Viper?

It just feels like SRT doesn't care. What is going on!


SRT DOES care about what's happening, but as we have said before they are not in control of these things, corporate and legal are deciding what does and does not get to happen. The Guys and gals at SRT want nothing more then to have us all buy and enjoy the Viper and all SRT's the way they should be enjoyed, they are car people through and through. They "get it", they just have to sit and wait with the rest of us, frustrated and searching for a little hope that their dreams will come true.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Jon, is there ANYTHING that was debuted at SEMA for the Viper? It just feels like SRT doesn't care. What is going on!





YES......... debut of Headers, Exhaust, CF Shift Knob.....aero kit CF as on TA

[John Hennessey]

I have expressed the need for programming for many years to Chrysler execs and engineers. Chevy and Ford know that many of their performance minded customers want to tinker with their cars. Thus, they have done a good job of working with aftermarket software companies such that the software is available to modify at about the same time as the car hits the market. In the case of the C7 Corvette, we had software modification capability before the car hit dealers!

Over the past 20 years and under various ownership and leadership groups, Chrysler has always been behind the curve and has lost sales as a result. Further, for whatever reason, Chrysler engineering decides to completely change their ecu and programming systems every few years. This has been especially true with the new Hemi since the 6.4L came out. Just as soon as the aftermarket finds a way to access the computer, Chrysler completely changes their computer or software system, crank sensors, etc!

If Chrysler really wants to get this right then they need to quit re-inventing their software systems every few years. Ford does not do this. GM does not do this. The Germans such as Porsche, BMW, etc. do not do this. And that is why these brands are so easy to modify, make reliable power increases and in most cases remain smog legal with great fuel econ.

I like what the President of Chrysler said a few weeks ago at SEMA. I was there when he said it and he was honest in saying that they had not done a good job of paying attention to this area. Now take it to the next step and factor this into your future product planning just like Ford and Chevy do. And you will reap the gains with more sales and retained customers.

The corporate world is now buzzing and looking for "influencers". Well we all know that car guys influence dozens of family and friends who are not car guys. Just make the car guys happy and everybody wins. Glad that Chrysler gets this and looking forward to seeing more great Chrysler vehicles that are easier to tune!

John Hennessey

[Disturbed]

It would only take a few things to catapult the viper back to the top of the food chain.

1.) Unlock the ECU
2.) Add forged internals
3.) add factory FI (SC or turbo)

That would set the aftermarket on fire for these cars. For less than $10k in mods these cars would easily make 1000hp. I figure #2 is the easiest. Atleast then you wouldn't have to pull the motor to if you wanted to add FI. I can promise you that you would see alot more 1000hp vipers running around kicking the snot out of Vettes on race days

[John Hennessey]

The Viper's days of being at the top of the food chain were over about 10 years ago. Today there are lots of cars that exceed the Viper's performance, looks, power and value. And there are many more coming. SRT could sell a few more Vipers by doing a few things differently. But the reality is that this is a car that was built to a budget. And it falls within the overall product plans of Fiat / Ferrari, thus I doubt that it would be allowed to compete with or trump any of Maranello's finest.

Build a Viper with 700-800 hp, active rear diff, dual clutch transmission and offer it for under $150k and it might be a different story...

John Hennessey

[Disturbed]

The Viper's days of being at the top of the food chain were over about 10 years ago. Today there are lots of cars that exceed the Viper's performance, looks, power and value. And there are many more coming. SRT could sell a few more Vipers by doing a few things differently. But the reality is that this is a car that was built to a budget. And it falls within the overall product plans of Fiat / Ferrari, thus I doubt that it would be allowed to compete with or trump any of Maranello's finest.

Build a Viper with 700-800 hp, active rear diff, dual clutch transmission and offer it for under $150k and it might be a different story...

John Hennessey

John I will respectfully disagree with you. The Viper has always done very stock compaired to other cars in a stock vs stock compair-o. It's what's happening on the street that hurts the viper the most. Those cars (vette, GTR, Lambo, mustang) have huge aftermarket support and can be modified to hand the viper its ass. Granted they must (and can easily) be modified and the Gen4/5 vipers can't. The gen2-3 cars still do well at high speed events like the mile. The fact you can get a Gen2/3 to make 1200-1300rwhp on 93 pump gas can only be matches by a few (if any) cars short of a Big Block and none of the old muscle cars handle as well as a Viper.

[Troublemaker]

I hope SRT really is paying attention, because this thread should have most of the easy answers to fix this mess. Now the hard corporate answers are where they will have to earn their pay checks. The sh!t is basically hitting the fan, winners want the ball when the game is on the line. The ball has been dropped, now lets see if anyone picks it up. I have faith in what SRT can do collectively, my question would be is how badly are their hands tied?

[KRATEDISEASE]

Jon, is there ANYTHING that was debuted at SEMA for the Viper?

It just feels like SRT doesn't care. What is going on!

Harold,

What a terrible thing to say that SRT does not care, especially when it is surely not true. If they did not care then there would have never been a Gen5 Viper. They do care, but they are in the business to make money. The management answers to the stockholders. And if Management does not produce income then eventually management will be replaced by the stockholders. Additionally from the sales figures, so far, the Viper appears to be a money loser for Fiat/Chryslers bottom line. Fiat/Chrysler is not in the business to lose money. At this point, financially, how much "good" money can Chrysler throw at Viper after "bad" money already spent. It makes no sense financially to support a low volume product. Simple basic business common sense. Chrysler has to spend time/money resources on selling the Vipers that are unsold as of today. Harold, if you were in charge of Chrysler as a whole ( not just Viper) what would you do ? Spend resources on developing carbon fiber kits and unlocking the PCM for a few hundred owners of gen5 Vipers OR spending resources on selling the remaining unsold inventory.
Chrysler is making the correct difficult decision by using company resources to sell Vipers by spending money doing mailings and setting up test drives. Chrysler is paying employees to set up test drive days and using costly product as "testers" to promote the sale of Vipers.They are spending money on travel, insurance, payroll and using product to get the word out. No, they are not using employees and resources to develop after sales support for just a few hundred owners.

They appear at this point to care enough to keep plugging and promoting Viper, and are still spending resources to push the Viper. That obviously indicates that they are making the correct financial decisions. It also shows that they DO care about the Viper and still have faith in the product and future sales to, at this point, throw more money at the Viper car after already spending millions on development and production on a product that has fallen short of making profit for the stockholders. Remember, the assembly line has already had reductions in empolyees and production output.

Marky

[Disturbed]

For example a good thing to try is something Mac did with the MP4-12C. Upgrade the car then offer to upgrade the already existing cars for cost.

This could also trickle into the Gen4 cars because its "upgrades" that can be done to the 08-14 cars.

*IF* they offered a factory SC option that put out 800hp on the 2015/2016 MY. They could offer the "factory upgrade" the earlier cars and put a warranty on it. It would sell ~10-15% of the existing base. While that may not seem like alot. It would be enough to help pay for the R&D of the upgrade to the future Viper.

What they have going for them is that other than cosmetics the mechanicals of the Gen4/5 is for the most part the same. It's something they can use to thier advantage if they would just use it.

[Space Truckin]

Harold,

What a terrible thing to say that SRT does not care, especially when it is surely not true. If they did not care then there would have never been a Gen5 Viper. They do care, but they are in the business to make money. The management answers to the stockholders. And if Management does not produce income then eventually management will be replaced by the stockholders. Additionally from the sales figures, so far, the Viper appears to be a money loser for Fiat/Chryslers bottom line. Fiat/Chrysler is not in the business to lose money. At this point, financially, how much "good" money can Chrysler throw at Viper after "bad" money already spent. It makes no sense financially to support a low volume product. Simple basic business common sense. Chrysler has to spend time/money resources on selling the Vipers that are unsold as of today. Harold, if you were in charge of Chrysler as a whole ( not just Viper) what would you do ? Spend resources on developing carbon fiber kits and unlocking the PCM for a few hundred owners of gen5 Vipers OR spending resources on selling the remaining unsold inventory.
Chrysler is making the correct difficult decision by using company resources to sell Vipers by spending money doing mailings and setting up test drives. Chrysler is paying employees to set up test drive days and using costly product as "testers" to promote the sale of Vipers.They are spending money on travel, insurance, payroll and using product to get the word out. No, they are not using employees and resources to develop after sales support for just a few hundred owners.

They appear at this point to care enough to keep plugging and promoting Viper, and are still spending resources to push the Viper. That obviously indicates that they are making the correct financial decisions. It also shows that they DO care about the Viper and still have faith in the product and future sales to, at this point, throw more money at the Viper car after already spending millions on development and production on a product that has fallen short of making profit for the stockholders. Remember, the assembly line has already had reductions in empolyees and production output.

Marky

:t1236:

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I am BUMPING this PCM thread under the theory of "Better Late Than Never".............. The Gen 5 MoPar PCM is FINALLY due for release in near-term, and will have some end-user-programmability

[Steve M]

I am BUMPING this PCM thread under the theory of "Better Late Than Never".............. The Gen 5 MoPar PCM is FINALLY due for release in near-term, and will have some end-user-programmability

O RLY? I don't suppose they have any plans to revise the Gen IV Mopar PCM to provide that capability? I know it wouldn't make sense from a business case standpoint, but man that'd be cool...

[FLATOUT]

Yes that last tidbit is quite nice :)

[Policy Limits]

If the guy who wins the door prize Launch Edition at the upcoming event refuses to accept it and they hence can't even give a car away, then it's time for some serious concern. Hee hee.

[Coloviper]

I am pretty sure I am going to take it!