My Gen 4/5 engine build (track car)

[TooBlue]

I have been anxiously following the threads regarding the Gen 5 intake and cam "experiments". I hope this thread might help to provide more info regarding the
task of getting more horsepower and durability out of our Gen 4s.

*This engine will be going into a dedicated track car so please keep that in mind.

Some background....

Back in November, myself and the other track nuts from St.Louis headed down to Atlanta. We were going to run AMP on a Friday and Road Atlanta on Saturday/Sunday.
We arrived at AMP early on Friday and I winched the car out of the trailer. We were were all pump'd and ready to start a three day, two track weekend...!
I fired the engine at the bottom of trailer ramp to warm up and move to the paddock. I noticed that I had "O" oil pressure...??? I thought this was odd especially since I had
just completed a complete fluid change on the car the week before. I even drove the car for about 20 miles on some backroads just to make sure there weren't any problems.
Anyway, I immediately turned the car off and restarted. Same thing, no oil pressure. I figured it was probably a gauge failure or something simple.
I manually activated my accusump and the gauge went up to 5# and fell back off to "0"....
Long story short, after changing the filter and some other attempts at fixing the problem without success, I winched the car back into the trailer and drove the 9.5 hours back home.....:furious:

Got the car home and found the problem. There was a piece of metal stuck in the oil pressure relief valve. Obviously the bigger problem here is where did that piece of metal come from. After further investigation we found the problem. It was a piece of the roller lifter...
This is what we found...
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This obviously flattened the cam lobes so the cam was junk....

Further investigation uncovered a spun bearing and some block damage...
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Soooo..... Obviously I am building a new engine. To make it interesting, I am scheduled to run this car at C.O.T.A. Feb 7-9...
I WILL be there so I am doing everything possible to get this car ready.

Luckily, I have located all the parts, the machine work has already been started and the wheels are in motion...

This is the engine I am building;

-I am using forged pistons/rods from Arrow. I am however bumping the compression from the stock 10.2:1 to 11:1
(Going to custom "fit" pistons and get assembly balanced/blueprinted)
-Gen 5 intake
-Gen 5 cam ( My OEM cam was flat so I had to get a new one anyway. Why not turn it up.... :anonymous:))
-New "race" lifters....?
-Ported heads (from BBG) with ARP head bolts
-Mopar performance ECU
-M/M headers, no cats and 1 ACRX type muffler

I have a Rockland Transzilla trans. with Toddy's clutch/flywheel/slave set up behind it.

I have about 4 weeks to get this done before C.O.T.A.. I will update this thread as the build goes forward.

I will definitely post the dyno numbers when completed....:dude3:


I also have a BBG ported Gen 4 intake. We hope to have the time to swap intakes (after COTA) and get a hp comparison between the Gen. 4 ported intake and the Gen 5 intake on a "massaged" Gen 4 engine.

It sounds like there may be a more affordable way to tune the Gen 4s in the near future. This will obviously help quite a bit too...

[FLATOUT]

Very interesting, any idea what caused the problem? Did you run a catch can on the old motor or what it possibly just a bad lifter?

Looking forward to your results, and good luck getting to COTA!

[venomous08]

Mike you can't catch a break at all with that poor car....

[venomous08]

Very interesting, any idea what caused the problem? Did you run a catch can on the old motor or what it possibly just a bad lifter?

Looking forward to your results, and good luck getting to COTA!

He has the catch can on it.

[TooBlue]

Very interesting, any idea what caused the problem? Did you run a catch can on the old motor or what it possibly just a bad lifter?

Looking forward to your results, and good luck getting to COTA!

Yes, I use a catch can.
Not exactly sure what happened first. Obviously the lifter was stuck to flatten the roller lifter
wheel, which flattened the cam lobes.....



Mike you can't catch a break at all with that poor car....

Hi Scott

Aint' that the truth....!

Hope to see you and Tyler at Hastings in June... :dude3:

[v10addiction]

Yes, I use a catch can.
Not exactly sure what happened first. Obviously the lifter was stuck to flatten the roller lifter
wheel, which flattened the cam lobes.....



This may have been answered elsewhere, but how are going to tune this build?

Your changing every aspect of airflow and fuel dynamics.

We have two GEN IV's with 12.5/1 pistons that make 800hp, but both cars have Motec's, which with wiring cost more than the motor builds.

Removing the cam in cam setup was a must to get better numbers and there was no way to get anything but a Baja GenIV V10 truck tune put in the PCM when ours were built, so we had to go Motec.

We have seen your issue with this type of failure twice on the cam in cam motors when the solenoid that controls the cam timing fails and bleeds off all the oil pressure.
Shortly thereafter the motor fails. It's hard to chase down as so many things fail afterwards, it's hard to spot the cause.

ARROW has a kit to take the solenoid and cam in cam out of the equation and allow you to run conventional race cams.

I also know one ACR owner who had it happen one cool morning when he fired up the car.
Chrysler gave him a new engine and did not seem to have much to say about it.

We have since plumbed in a 3 sec oil pressure alarm on start up for cam in cam motor cars, just in case.
We also Polydyn coat all our bearings to give us a small margin of error with no oil pressure.

I can't say the Gen IV's fail all that much, but with enough of a beating anything is possible.

We have more MAP sensor failures than anything, even though the motor doesn't run off the MAP, there is some logic to cross check the Mass Air Flow which errors and falls into limp mode.
I know a lot of people with this problem, both street and race. It is really bad when you travel around the country for a race, just to go in limp mode and miss the entire race.
I feel your pain!

When we switched to Motec, all of that went away.
Now our biggest problem is too many gadgets like traction control and GPS tuning to play with.

[Revolution]

What kind of fuel are you running with that compression?

[venomous08]

Yes, I use a catch can.
Not exactly sure what happened first. Obviously the lifter was stuck to flatten the roller lifter
wheel, which flattened the cam lobes.....




Hi Tyler

Aint' that the truth....!

Hope to see you and Tyler at Hastings in June... :dude3:

Fixed... :slap:

[TooBlue]

This may have been answered elsewhere, but how are going to tune this build?

Your changing every aspect of airflow and fuel dynamics.

We have two GEN IV's with 12.5/1 pistons that make 800hp, but both cars have Motec's, which with wiring cost more than the motor builds.

Removing the cam in cam setup was a must to get better numbers and there was no way to get anything but a Baja GenIV V10 truck tune put in the PCM when ours were built, so we had to go Motec.

We have seen your issue with this type of failure twice on the cam in cam motors when the solenoid that controls the cam timing fails and bleeds off all the oil pressure.
Shortly thereafter the motor fails. It's hard to chase down as so many things fail afterwards, it's hard to spot the cause.

ARROW has a kit to take the solenoid and cam in cam out of the equation and allow you to run conventional race cams.

I also know one ACR owner who had it happen one cool morning when he fired up the car.
Chrysler gave him a new engine and did not seem to have much to say about it.

We have since plumbed in a 3 sec oil pressure alarm on start up for cam in cam motor cars, just in case.
We also Polydyn coat all our bearings to give us a small margin of error with no oil pressure.

I can't say the Gen IV's fail all that much, but with enough of a beating anything is possible.

We have more MAP sensor failures than anything, even though the motor doesn't run off the MAP, there is some logic to cross check the Mass Air Flow which errors and falls into limp mode.
I know a lot of people with this problem, both street and race. It is really bad when you travel around the country for a race, just to go in limp mode and miss the entire race.
I feel your pain!

When we switched to Motec, all of that went away.
Now our biggest problem is too many gadgets like traction control and GPS tuning to play with.

I should have clarified that this is a road course car. Not straight-line engine. I am not interested in getting the most HP possible.
I am looking for durability and to "clean up" some issues with the Gen 4s.

I have heard of the solenoid failure but like I stated above, we found a piece of metal stuck in the oil pressure relief valve, which caused the loss of oil pressure.

Modding Vipers is nothing new to me and I have been doing some research into all this. The shop doing the work, including myself, have talked this over in detail with Todd and Lee at Arrow. Like my other Arrow engines, we are following their suggestions.

We discussed with Arrow the 12.5:1 pistons, billet cam option and as you stated, this would require a new controller.
I talked to John Reed, (JR supplied and tuned the Motec M800 in my E98 powered twin turbo '06 wide body) Anyway, John made me a killer deal on his new M180 Motec that is ready for the Gen 4. Unfortunately, I don't have the time nor do I need 800 hp on the road course. I would much rather spend the additional money on seat time and become a better driver than on the extra horsepower.
Especialy since our Vipers have plenty of power to basically pull just about any other car around the track anyway....
Arrows' suggestion was to cut a set of Drag Pack pistons from 12.5:1 compression down to 11:1. I will be running 5 gallons race gas on top of 15 gallons of 93 octane to compensate for the .80 increase per cylinder in compression.

As far as the cam, the Gen 5 IS a VVT cam and there isn't an issue there. The changes aren't that great to cause any issues with the Mopar race controller. And since I needed a new cam anyway, why not....?
Lee said that the car wouldn't even start w/o a standalone or similar ECU if I wasn't using a Gen. 4 or 5 VVT cam which made the choice even easier.

As far as the additional oiling. I have a manual switch as well as the automatic pressure solenoid on my Accusump.
Before I start the car, I manually activate the Accusump which forces an additional 3 quarts of oil, under pressure, into the engine. I wait about thirty seconds and fire up the pre-oiled engine.

I am not really changing the dynamics of the engine, just cleaning up and improving a little bit....:)

Now if this new handheld controller does in fact come out, I will be one of the first in line....



Fixed... :slap:

Sorry Tyler...! I just saw the home state and assumed it was your dad.....;)

[CERVEZA]

I have a very similar setup.... Can't wait to hear the numbers!

[venomous08]

Sorry Tyler...! I just saw the home state and assumed it was your dad.....;)

We will be there. I have a crap ton of stuff to do before then. My ACR will no longer be stock, but I am not under the crazy time frame like yourself... LOL

A dead giveaway is that my dad doesn't know how to get an avatar uploaded lol

[Dan Cragin]

I have seen lifter failures in the Gen 5 as well. It seems to be valve float related and makes a mess of the engine. Problem is you cannot run much valve spring pressure on a VVT system. The way to get around this is to lighten the valve train and rigidify the lifters. This allows you run a little more spring pressure. About 120 on the seat. The engine is MAF/MAP based so it will tune itself to more airflow. With the Mopar controller, you can port the heads and bump up the compression without a calibration change. You are limited on fuel volume at that point but with some fuel system upgrades it all works fine. We have ACRX's at 700plus hp on the factory computer.

For those on a budget, the AEM infinity works great with DBW and VVT, you also can program in traction control and ignition cut for sequential transmissions.

For big power, eliminating the VVT and going with the stand alone is the way to go. Another option is the drag pack setup, which uses the earlier, program friendly JTEC controller and manual throttle body.

[TooBlue]

I have seen lifter failures in the Gen 5 as well. It seems to be valve float related and makes a mess of the engine. Problem is you cannot run much valve spring pressure on a VVT system. The way to get around this is to lighten the valve train and rigidify the lifters. This allows you run a little more spring pressure. About 120 on the seat. The engine is MAF/MAP based so it will tune itself to more airflow. With the Mopar controller, you can port the heads and bump up the compression without a calibration change. You are limited on fuel volume at that point but with some fuel system upgrades it all works fine. We have ACRX's at 700plus hp on the factory computer.

For those on a budget, the AEM infinity works great with DBW and VVT, you also can program in traction control and ignition cut for sequential transmissions.


For big power, eliminating the VVT and going with the stand alone is the way to go. Another option is the drag pack setup, which uses the earlier, program friendly JTEC controller and manual throttle body.


That is probably the way I will go after the engine install.

Is the AEM Infinity out yet for the Gen. ?
I hear that it is, then I hear it's not, then I hear it's close...??????

[Dan Cragin]

Yes the Infinity is out for the the Gen 2-3-4-5. But....It does require a custom wiring harness not supported by AEM and it is not CAN/BUS ready. In other words, you can buy it for the Viper but you need a company like us (or a vendor here) to build the harness. It will control the motor, but not the gauges, so an additional harness will be needed for that.

We use it for Motorsports, as it will talk to a aftermarket dash like a Motec, AIM etc.

If interested I would be happy to make a plug and play setup for the Gen 4-5 street cars.

[ACRucrazy]

If there was a plug and play setup for street cars I'm sure you will have some buyers.

[Bill Pemberton]

Cool, looking forward to seeing this beast at Hastings ( Viper Rendezvous #5 ) for sure and Scott and Tyler will be there, but they will be bringing another Oklahoman, so it could be a war
between the St. Louis troupe and the Oklahoma banditos on track. Always a good showing from the Eastern Missouri track rats, but starting to get a good crowd from the red dirt State. They keep
telling me they will get to the finish , Sooner , than you guys -- yep, really bad pun!!

Keep us posted on COTA and make sure that GoPro is running full time for those of us here in the land of cold white crap!!

[venomous08]

Cool, looking forward to seeing this beast at Hastings ( Viper Rendezvous #5 ) for sure and Scott and Tyler will be there, but they will be bringing another Oklahoman, so it could be a war
between the St. Louis troupe and the Oklahoma banditos on track. Always a good showing from the Eastern Missouri track rats, but starting to get a good crowd from the red dirt State. They keep
telling me they will get to the finish , Sooner , than you guys -- yep, really bad pun!!

Keep us posted on COTA and make sure that GoPro is running full time for those of us here in the land of cold white crap!!

I am hoping that JD will bring the TA out IDK yet though if dad has talked him into going yet??

[TooBlue]

If there was a plug and play setup for street cars I'm sure you will have some buyers.



Like DC said, the AEM Infinity is out for the Gen 4 Viper. It's on the AEM website.

I found a very reputable and known company that is in the business of making harnesses.
It's not on their website, but a good friend that is helping me with this talked to them directly and....

THEY HAVE BUILT THE GEN 4 PLUG AND PLAY HARNESS FOR THE VIPER GEN 4 AEM INFINITY 10....!!!!

They even have the Infinity harness for the Gen 5....!!!!

The only issue are the gauges..... That isn't a problem because there are several companies, like Traqmate, that have
a dash that will plug right into the new Infinity.
FWIW....The Traqmate dash looks similar to the Motec dash and attaches to the steering column between the steering wheel and the existing dash.

Problem solved....
(Sounds good on paper anyway....)


I won't have time to install the AEM/Infinity system before COTA...
The parts were expedited and shipped the fastest way possible. However the pistons/rods/cam are finally due to be del. from Arrow
today (1/9)....
Obviously we still need to get the pistons fitted, bottom half balanced, and the engine assembled and installed....
We will have our work cut out for us just to be on track in three weeks...

I do plan to install the Infinity after COTA and will post the results...

[TooBlue]

Cool, looking forward to seeing this beast at Hastings ( Viper Rendezvous #5 ) for sure and Scott and Tyler will be there, but they will be bringing another Oklahoman, so it could be a war
between the St. Louis troupe and the Oklahoma banditos on track. Always a good showing from the Eastern Missouri track rats, but starting to get a good crowd from the red dirt State. They keep
telling me they will get to the finish , Sooner , than you guys -- yep, really bad pun!!

Keep us posted on COTA and make sure that GoPro is running full time for those of us here in the land of cold white crap!!

Hey Bill...

I'll post some COTA videos for sure....

I meant what I said when I told the Hastings newspaper reporter that interviewed me last year at the MPH track.
If I could only do three track events a year, Hastings would be one of them..!!!!...:dude3:

I registered for the Rendezvous over a week ago...!

[Bill Pemberton]

Well tell all your friends , as we are hoping to get over 50 Snakes there this year. Be cool as a VOA Regional Event , don't you think??

[TooBlue]

Well tell all your friends , as we are hoping to get over 50 Snakes there this year. Be cool as a VOA Regional Event , don't you think??
Yes, I definitely agree...!
We are getting together this Sunday to discuss our "Track attack"....

Don't you worry, StL will be well represented....:dude3:

[TooBlue]

I finally have all the parts I need....

The cam and repaired main were checked and the assembly is line bored.

One of the preliminary tasks is to balance/blueprint the rotating assembly.
The added expense was worth it because there was a lot of variance in weights.

Each piston and rod are weighed and documented. An average weight is established and the rest of the rods and pistons are machined to be equal. This obviously makes for a faster and smoother running engine.

2509

You can see how the wrist pin end and the rod cap end are machined to make the combined piston/rod weight equal. The finished rods and pistons are weighed and documented again.

2510


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Next is to balance the crank to the balanced pistons/rods.

The cylindrical weights that are attached to the crank are calculated are exactly the same weight as the
now balanced pistons/rods.
The "simulated" finished assembly is then spun. The crank counterweights are then machined and drilled to make the entire piston and crank assembly balanced...



2513

I'm hoping to get everything back today or tomorrow for engine assembly and install.
I'm on a tight time frame so Justin at JMB Performance told me he would start this weekend if he has everything.

FWIW... I can't tell you how helpful and accommodating JMB is, and has been, through all of my "projects"....

More info to follow....

[Nixon's SRT]

You are hardcore! Good luck at COTA!

[TooBlue]

Well,...
Moving right along.....

This is from Wednesday (1/22/14)

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This is from today (1/24/14)

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With any luck we should be starting up today......:)

[Bill Pemberton]

Thanks for the Update and don't worry Tyler , JD told me he was definitely going to be at Hastings -- could be a an Oklahoma vs St. Louis Shootout!!!??

[venomous08]

Thanks for the Update and don't worry Tyler , JD told me he was definitely going to be at Hastings -- could be a an Oklahoma vs St. Louis Shootout!!!??

If it is I better get on the ball with throwing parts at my car!!!

[ACRucrazy]

Accusump?

[TooBlue]

Accusump?

Definitely...!

I have a manual switch beside being wired to the oil pressure sensor.
I manually activate the Accusump to pre-oil the engine BEFORE I start it...

I use this Accusump/pre-oiling system on my TT also...

2731

Works GREAT..!

"Cheap engine insurance"....

[TooBlue]

So far so good....

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2750

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Goin' to the dyno tomorrow....:dude3:

[Black Pearl]

TOOBLUE
Do you have information on 3 sec oil pressure alarm? Where to get it and installation

[TooBlue]

TOOBLUE
Do you have information on 3 sec oil pressure alarm? Where to get it and installation

I'm sorry but I don't have any info. I DO remember reading about it on here somewhere....:confused:

[TooBlue]

Put some highway miles on the car for break-in (In Mexico, of course....:anonymous:)

The car runs great....!


Next task was to set up the new suspension for the car. Erik Messley from EMI Racing from Long Beach Cal. is doing the set up.


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EM set up the Penske race shocks with VDP pistons. I am also using EMI's billet shock fork

2883

New mono ball lower shock mount. All of the balljoints and bushings on the upper and lower control arms have been converted to EMI's billet mono ball links

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The new suspension installed...


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Next is the actual alignment.

Set the bump steer yesterday...

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Going to finish the alignment today as well as install some new solid sway bars...


Looks like I am on schedule to leave for COTA on Wdnesday....:dude3:

[Back In Black]

What spring rates are you going with?

[TooBlue]

What spring rates are you going with?

I'll tell you after Hastings.....:p0273:

[Back In Black]

I'll tell you after Hastings.....:p0273:

:furious:

[CERVEZA]

Any dyno numbers yet?

[FLATOUT]

Awesome build brother! I just got my big primary M&Ms in, can't wait to get them installed and dyno'd.

Have fun at COTA!

[venomous08]

I'll tell you after Hastings.....:p0273:

Why so secretive there buddy???

[TooBlue]

Any dyno numbers yet?

Not really. Just getting some run time in trying to seat the rings and loosen the engine. It is tight but runs very smooth.
I have an appointment on 2/17 to go back on the dyno for some real numbers...



Awesome build brother! I just got my big primary M&Ms in, can't wait to get them installed and dyno'd.

Have fun at COTA!

Thanks..
Matt's new big tube headers came the day before then engine install. They look great and fit like a glove....
The big tube headers should work well with the added compression, Gen 5 intake and ported heads.
After all, it's all about air flow...


Why so secretive there buddy???

LOL,.... Nothing like that..!!! I'm just messing with Keith....

Truth is, I don't know....yet. The shocks were rebuilt with EMI's recommended starting spring rate. We will be taking several sets of springs to the track as well.
The plan is to try several different spring rates and decide which is the best.
The thought behind this is I won't have any preconceived idea of if I am on stiff or soft springs... I just drive the car and decide what works for me.
At that time I will know the spring rate numbers...

"Why so secretive there buddy"....?
Now Tyler, if I was trying to be "secretive" would I be telling everything about my car in this thread.....:lol2:

[venomous08]

"Why so secretive there buddy"....?
Now Tyler, if I was trying to be "secretive" would I be telling everything about my car in this thread.....:lol2:

That's my point, you divulge everything but spring rates!!! LOL:saw:

I have a lot of parts to order this week... Jon B is going to be busy...

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

Lookin good Mike, should run Fast..!!