Brakes Busted

[SADVIPER]

2 track sessions and in the 3rd one voila! Lol.
The pistons melted and I wanted to see their combination with PMI, turns out aluminum body with nickel coating.
Also the pads were toasted through and through!
Will have fun experimenting a repair with this caliper! Weld build-up and machining. Hopefully will find alternate solutions in the scrap yard as well before I manage a new caliper.
Currently, working on upgrading the whole brake system to meet the tough track day demands.

[SADVIPER]

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[Nine Ball]

Never seen this happen before, on any car. Could you give us a detailed explanation of how much abuse they saw? Duration on track, any cool-down time between run groups, pad brand/type, peak mph on track, etc...

[SNKEBIT]

Never seen this happen before, on any car. Could you give us a detailed explanation of how much abuse they saw? Duration on track, any cool-down time between run groups, pad brand/type, peak mph on track, etc...

That's what I was gonna say, I think you use too much brake!!

[IndyRon]

Some folks rest their foot on the brake even during acceleration, essentially 2 foot drivers, left foot brake, right foot gas. This would be a real weird way to race given the clutch, but I'd imagine having the brakes always slightly applied without cooldown could cause this.

[mjorgensen]

It is strange that it is just the 2 inner pistons though...

[ACR Steve]

cant happen from just use ........ something else caused it

[ACR Steve]

cant happen from just use ........ something else caused it

What did the pad look like

[FrgMstr]

You need to fill in a LOT of blanks.

Year of the car? How many miles on the system? What pads? Pics of pad on inside and out? Were you not doing a quick visual inspection between sessions?

[SADVIPER]

The first track session was in hot conditions, the second in cold condition 6 months after. And the third one when I started was in a normal weather and from the beginning I felt my brakes are not performing. I thought I was exceeding the limits but even when I tried to brake early it wasn't holding so there was something wrong for sure. Stopped and went out the track mid session.
My car has the track pack, the hardest braking point I reach after hitting 250 km/h then hard brake with down shifts and right 90 degree corner. This caliper is front left, the right one also had the pads gone but the pistons were ok. Weirdly, when I was bleeding other calipers, those two pistons in the front started leaking and fell off by themselves!!
The pads are toasted once I'm back home will post their pictures.
I usually do one cold lap and two hot, a lap yields around2:30 seconds and between rounds there is a 30 minute break. I downshift a lot and I rarely use toe and heel as I consider myself a beginner. I don't street race other than three or four times a year just for fun and I don't recall more than two hard braking required. Car is a 13 and maybe I should've changed the pads and fluids after the 2nd session. Our region has a relatively hot atmosphere compared to you guys but I dont track it in extreme temperatures. I admit in the last session in which they were busted, I was batteling it out with Yousif's TA :p two rounds and I went out no more abuse.

The fact that you guys first time see something like this astonishs me, I just realised how bad it is after I dismantled my brakes. I thought the fluids and hoses were off but turned out the pads and pistons were busted.

[SADVIPER]

You need to fill in a LOT of blanks.

Year of the car? How many miles on the system? What pads? Pics of pad on inside and out? Were you not doing a quick visual inspection between sessions?

2013, around 9,000 miles if memory serves me well. I assure you I will be doing more often inspection from now on lol

[Dave1968]

How are the rotors, are they warped? Sounds like the brakes might have been dragging the entire time.

[aNinjaneer]

This is why a lot of tracks/events will require at least 60% of brake life left on the pads and rotors to run.

[Nine Ball]

Sounds like you were using the metal backing plates as your brake pads, once the pads were completely gone. Yep, that would do it!

:)

[AZTVR]

2 track sessions and in the 3rd one voila! .

One thing that may be misleading to some (like me) is your use of the word "session." I typically think of a session as one 20 to 30 minute set of laps on the track, and there might be 4 to 6 sessions in a day. I can see that you may be calling a one day event a session, or possibly a 2 day event a session, yes?

[GTSilver]

The first track session was in hot conditions, the second in cold condition 6 months after. And the third one when I started was in a normal weather and from the beginning I felt my brakes are not performing. I thought I was exceeding the limits but even when I tried to brake early it wasn't holding so there was something wrong for sure. Stopped and went out the track mid session.
My car has the track pack, the hardest braking point I reach after hitting 250 km/h then hard brake with down shifts and right 90 degree corner. This caliper is front left, the right one also had the pads gone but the pistons were ok. Weirdly, when I was bleeding other calipers, those two pistons in the front started leaking and fell off by themselves!!
The pads are toasted once I'm back home will post their pictures.
I usually do one cold lap and two hot, a lap yields around2:30 seconds and between rounds there is a 30 minute break. I downshift a lot and I rarely use toe and heel as I consider myself a beginner. I don't street race other than three or four times a year just for fun and I don't recall more than two hard braking required. Car is a 13 and maybe I should've changed the pads and fluids after the 2nd session. Our region has a relatively hot atmosphere compared to you guys but I dont track it in extreme temperatures. I admit in the last session in which they were busted, I was batteling it out with Yousif's TA :p two rounds and I went out no more abuse.

The fact that you guys first time see something like this astonishs me, I just realised how bad it is after I dismantled my brakes. I thought the fluids and hoses were off but turned out the pads and pistons were busted.

I'm surprised to see this to be honest as i have never seen this before. I usually rebuild my callipers after each season on my other car and its usually the rubber seals and nothing major as your case.

You mentioned it was only the left side calliper and not both front, i'd check the pad wear between both sides, maybe the pads were tapered and/or not installed properly before hand. BIC is very hard on brakes and we need as much cooling as we can, get the ACR front brake ducts that will help. Did you check your pad wear/thickness before the last track day ? maybe they were at the minimum and after the track got toast as others have mentioned thus the pistons was pressed out. I'm not 100% sure of my suggestions but these things come to mind. Also when rebuilding the brake callipers get for both front and rear callipers.

I as well wasn't happy with the TA brakes on track as I've mentioned to you, but even with carbotech pads that I got from Mark they are way better than OEM although the rear end wiggle is more present, but with BIC being very hard on brakes and the speeds we are reaching i'm looking for a bbk for next season, 6 piston up front instead of 4 and a 380mm instead of a 355 either viper exchange/stoptech or look into brembo if they have any offerings for the viper. This will help in braking significantly and also aids in heat dissipation.

[FrgMstr]

The first track session was in hot conditions, the second in cold condition 6 months after. And the third one when I started was in a normal weather and from the beginning I felt my brakes are not performing.


The fact that you guys first time see something like this astonishs me, I just realised how bad it is after I dismantled my brakes. I thought the fluids and hoses were off but turned out the pads and pistons were busted.


Sounds to me that you do not know how to maintain a Viper that you are using on the racetrack. You take the car to the track 3 times and don't even check your brake pads? The problem here is you, not the car.

[ViperGeorge]

Wow, just wow. I've actually run brakes on my old Camaro down to the metal on track once (by accident, I checked them before each session but the track was hard on brakes and I burned through the pads). I obviously noticed the decreased braking and came in. Didn't melt the pistons though. Never seen melted pistons on a Viper. By the way, I use race pads and Motul 600 fluid with stainless steel braided lines. For the pistons to melt you had to be driving only with the metal backing plates for quite a while. I would think the brakes would have been smoking if they got hot enough to melt the pistons and I can't imagine you had much in the way braking power.

The only other possibility I can think of is that the calipers were stuck on. This can happen with a poorly adjusted brake booster. If the brakes were on as you were powering down a straight then I could see that the pads would burn out quickly and overheat. Happened once to me on a track prepped Mustang. Right caliper stuck on. Got really hot but it also caused a vibration just driving down a straight.

[ViperPete]

I had the pistons in my SRT10 seize and let me tell you.... It is impossible for you to not know that they are seized. My SRT was all over the place, would not coast and felt like I was towing 10k of weight. it was down right scary.

I doubt that the caliper was seized. That damage looks like repeated abuse. He said the pistons fell out. If that's the case then they were not seized.

My caliper was pretty much destroyed because of the heat.

It is impressive looking though lol

[TrackAire]

Something here is not making sense.

Classic case of something being lost in translation......

[docwviper]

Not to hijack the thread. But at our IL winter meeting I spoke with some of the SRT engineers. They told me that for carbon ceramic brakes you have to actually weigh the rotor not measure the thickness to see how much is left of it. Any idea what the weights are for our rotors? I know the pads are a different story and this is a different threat. Just popped into my head reading all of this.

[Rapidrezults]

Not to hijack the thread. But at our IL winter meeting I spoke with some of the SRT engineers. They told me that for carbon ceramic brakes you have to actually weigh the rotor not measure the thickness to see how much is left of it. Any idea what the weights are for our rotors? I know the pads are a different story and this is a different threat. Just popped into my head reading all of this.

Read page 4 of this thread:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/13304-2016-ACR-vs-Porsche-GT3-at-Thunderhill-5-mile/page4

[Arizona Vipers]

I'm guessing your pads were already toast before you even got to the track. There's no way you could even come close to exceeding the limits of the manufacturer design of the track pack brakes your car has unless you are one of the best drivers in the world on a huge track with extremely long straights.

[G37Sam]

I think baking is more the accurate term here haha

[Racingbrake]

RacingBrake has a fundamental solution to the melt pistons.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/13581-Caliper-Rebuild-Components-from-RacingBrake?p=215675&posted=1#post215675

Don't just replace, upgrade to Stainless steel pistons and high temperature boots, you will never have to worry about this kind of damage again.

[SADVIPER]

16923
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The rotors had scratches but are fine after machining.

[SADVIPER]

This is why a lot of tracks/events will require at least 60% of brake life left on the pads and rotors to run.

This really should be a must all over the world.

[SADVIPER]

Sounds like you were using the metal backing plates as your brake pads, once the pads were completely gone. Yep, that would do it!

:)

Agreed, the baking plates are chewed in the middle. Once we felt the braking power was reduced we abandoned the race.

[SADVIPER]

One thing that may be misleading to some (like me) is your use of the word "session." I typically think of a session as one 20 to 30 minute set of laps on the track, and there might be 4 to 6 sessions in a day. I can see that you may be calling a one day event a session, or possibly a 2 day event a session, yes?

I think I covered that in my summary above, hope it is clear.

[SADVIPER]

I'm surprised to see this to be honest as i have never seen this before. I usually rebuild my callipers after each season on my other car and its usually the rubber seals and nothing major as your case.

You mentioned it was only the left side calliper and not both front, i'd check the pad wear between both sides, maybe the pads were tapered and/or not installed properly before hand. BIC is very hard on brakes and we need as much cooling as we can, get the ACR front brake ducts that will help. Did you check your pad wear/thickness before the last track day ? maybe they were at the minimum and after the track got toast as others have mentioned thus the pistons was pressed out. I'm not 100% sure of my suggestions but these things come to mind. Also when rebuilding the brake callipers get for both front and rear callipers.

I as well wasn't happy with the TA brakes on track as I've mentioned to you, but even with carbotech pads that I got from Mark they are way better than OEM although the rear end wiggle is more present, but with BIC being very hard on brakes and the speeds we are reaching i'm looking for a bbk for next season, 6 piston up front instead of 4 and a 380mm instead of a 355 either viper exchange/stoptech or look into brembo if they have any offerings for the viper. This will help in braking significantly and also aids in heat dissipation.

Indeed bro, I'm buffled how come both ends have similar wear and both rotors same scratches but the left pistons are melted! I'll get ducts later for sure and upgrade to 6 pistons and bigger dia probably. I never replaced them before so there might be something that was wrong with the initial angel.
I'll use the carbotechs for now until future replacement after I assiss the performance, though looks like our conditions and power require aa really solid proof brake system.
Oh and the rears are perfectly fine.

[SADVIPER]

Sounds to me that you do not know how to maintain a Viper that you are using on the racetrack. You take the car to the track 3 times and don't even check your brake pads? The problem here is you, not the car.

I don't remember saying the problem was the car, if you don't have any useful suggestion I'd rather ignore your comments.

[SADVIPER]

Wow, just wow. I've actually run brakes on my old Camaro down to the metal on track once (by accident, I checked them before each session but the track was hard on brakes and I burned through the pads). I obviously noticed the decreased braking and came in. Didn't melt the pistons though. Never seen melted pistons on a Viper. By the way, I use race pads and Motul 600 fluid with stainless steel braided lines. For the pistons to melt you had to be driving only with the metal backing plates for quite a while. I would think the brakes would have been smoking if they got hot enough to melt the pistons and I can't imagine you had much in the way braking power.

The only other possibility I can think of is that the calipers were stuck on. This can happen with a poorly adjusted brake booster. If the brakes were on as you were powering down a straight then I could see that the pads would burn out quickly and overheat. Happened once to me on a track prepped Mustang. Right caliper stuck on. Got really hot but it also caused a vibration just driving down a straight.

I would think so too but there was no vibration driving straight only when braking, and there was no indication of smoke. I think those aluminum pistons are weak tbh. But that was not supposed to happen if I had replaced my padd earlier frankly and avoided one lap where I thought I was braking very late and tried again with some heavier downshifts but still no stopping power so I realized something was off.

[SADVIPER]

I had the pistons in my SRT10 seize and let me tell you.... It is impossible for you to not know that they are seized. My SRT was all over the place, would not coast and felt like I was towing 10k of weight. it was down right scary.

I doubt that the caliper was seized. That damage looks like repeated abuse. He said the pistons fell out. If that's the case then they were not seized.

My caliper was pretty much destroyed because of the heat.

It is impressive looking though lol

Yeah probaly they were under one or two laps of abuse but heck looks like we are the only guys who think it is impressive looking though lol :lol2:

[SADVIPER]

Not to hijack the thread. But at our IL winter meeting I spoke with some of the SRT engineers. They told me that for carbon ceramic brakes you have to actually weigh the rotor not measure the thickness to see how much is left of it. Any idea what the weights are for our rotors? I know the pads are a different story and this is a different threat. Just popped into my head reading all of this.

No idea.

[SADVIPER]

I'm guessing your pads were already toast before you even got to the track. There's no way you could even come close to exceeding the limits of the manufacturer design of the track pack brakes your car has unless you are one of the best drivers in the world on a huge track with extremely long straights.

Could be but I started with two or three normal laps so I thought they still had life.
I assure you I'm not the greatest driver in the world lol but for sure those track pack brakes can be improved.

[SADVIPER]

I think baking is more the accurate term here haha

Lol yep especially in our oven of an atmosphere here :D

- - - Updated - - -


RacingBrake has a fundamental solution to the melt pistons.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/13581-Caliper-Rebuild-Components-from-RacingBrake?p=215675&posted=1#post215675

Don't just replace, upgrade to Stainless steel pistons and high temperature boots, you will never have to worry about this kind of damage again.

I will defintley check this out, thanks!

[esm_viper]

I'm guessing your pads were already toast before you even got to the track. There's no way you could even come close to exceeding the limits of the manufacturer design of the track pack brakes your car has unless you are one of the best drivers in the world on a huge track with extremely long straights.

Wrong! With less than 2 thousand miles on my car and 1st time at the track, I did.
Could be but I started with two or three normal laps so I thought they still had life.
I assure you I'm not the greatest driver in the world lol but for sure those track pack brakes can be improved.

I had my brakes fade at Circuit of the Americas on the first 20 minute session and it was my first time on the track. The front stretch I was getting up to 130mph and the back stretch around 150mph. I had the stock pads, Stoptech 2 piece rotors and Castrol SRF brake fluid.

The next time to the track I will try Carbotech pads and the ACR ducts. I'd say it's possible.

[Voice of Reason]

Wow, from those pics you obliterated those pads.

Are you braking hard and fast at the end of a straight or riding the brakes? I'm hard and fast and after 3 track days I cracked my pads and had an issue with my front right rotor getting too hot. But my pad thickness is still nearly 100%. It's like one your pads got hot your continued riding them just wiped them down to nothing quickly.

[catwood]

My stock OEM brakes got a little greasy at Chuckwalla at ViperTracks event. So much so I dang near punted an ACR (who doesn't know and shall remain nameless but posts here) who was braking a bit early in some of the corners.

Next event that isn't Willowsprings I'll have to step up on the pads and add some cooling.

[SADVIPER]

Wrong! With less than 2 thousand miles on my car and 1st time at the track, I did.

I had my brakes fade at Circuit of the Americas on the first 20 minute session and it was my first time on the track. The front stretch I was getting up to 130mph and the back stretch around 150mph. I had the stock pads, Stoptech 2 piece rotors and Castrol SRF brake fluid.

The next time to the track I will try Carbotech pads and the ACR ducts. I'd say it's possible.

I'll go with the castrol as well, with SS lines, carbotech pads, hopefully will see some improvement before I change the caliper size.

[SADVIPER]

Wow, from those pics you obliterated those pads.

Are you braking hard and fast at the end of a straight or riding the brakes? I'm hard and fast and after 3 track days I cracked my pads and had an issue with my front right rotor getting too hot. But my pad thickness is still nearly 100%. It's like one your pads got hot your continued riding them just wiped them down to nothing quickly.

I did not ride them. I think I over-used them in the previous 2 sessions which lead me to conclude that the stock oads will last for 2 sessions and casual driving of around 6 months.
Wow you cracked them while they were thick that's harsh riding without sufficient cooling in between I'd guess.

[SADVIPER]

My stock OEM brakes got a little greasy at Chuckwalla at ViperTracks event. So much so I dang near punted an ACR (who doesn't know and shall remain nameless but posts here) who was braking a bit early in some of the corners.

Next event that isn't Willowsprings I'll have to step up on the pads and add some cooling.

Lol! What makes them greasy? More cooling is defintley a must. The OEM ducts are a bit far.

[MomentaryRacing]

It is not unusual to see significant temperature differences in front left vs right brakes. We measured up to 150 degrees C left/right differences. There are many variables that affect that, but the direction of the heavy braking corner and side with the issue seem to support that this was use/condition related.

If you like to run your pads down to the backing plate (which is not a great idea, normally), you should use a heat blocking shield between back of the pad and piston (you could even use an old pad's backing plate).

We have been using RB's upgraded Pistons in our race car and are very happy with them. Even though we never melted stock pistons, they do get worn with heavy track use.

Given your conditions and use of brakes, you may want to consider, at the very least, denser rotors with more thermal mass to store the heat in the heavy braking zones (stoptechs are not great at that), and upgraded ducting, that channels the air either to the caliper, or the inside of the rotor - to get that heat out before the next braking zone. Think of it like taking a loan and then paying it back every lap. If you cannot keep up, eventually, you'll get in trouble :)

More drastic solution would be up-sizing the rotors and going to a 6-piston caliper system.

[SADVIPER]

Carbotech pads, StopTech SS lines with SRF and 4 different tracks and the brakes are still great but a bit squeky though! Much better than OEM for sure.
Going to do air duct build once I'm home, I'm not sold on the ACR one!

[Larryskillzs]

When I was at Bondurant on the last day I was in my Viper all day long. I probably put in 4 hours of track time(240 mins) and my brakes were fine. The school does preach controlled braking, but I was on the brakes a lot on the west track.

They do use an aftermarket pad, powerstop pst-1050 pads. They had plenty of bite the 3 days I was in the car. Since the car is checked 2-3 times a day, I didn't even think of seeing how much pad I went through while there.

Proper maintenance is important!