GTS track package to TA setup

[Tamvette]

I am trying to keep the stock setup but want to change the springs, sway bars and the alignment(already done) to match TA setup. Does anyone know the part number for the springs? (I guess Dodge calls them coils)

Thanks!

[VENOM V]

Hi,

I had intended to do this to my GTS as well, but an SRT engineer talked me out of it. He suggested to just do the TA alignment (or more front camber, if you can acheive it. I had -2.8 degrees front camber on my GTS). His opinion is that the performance will be very close just with the alignment. And if you look at the lap times of the GTS Vs. the TA at Laguna Seca, they are not that different. The TA springs are only 10% stiffer than the GTS springs, not enough of a difference to matter. I think the sway bars are stiffer, however.

The other big improvement to be gained is from the carbon aero package, if you don't already have it. I added that to my GTS as well, and it is fantastic at the track.

[Tamvette]

Hi,

I had intended to do this to my GTS as well, but an SRT engineer talked me out of it. He suggested to just do the TA alignment (or more front camber, if you can acheive it. I had -2.8 degrees front camber on my GTS). His opinion is that the performance will be very close just with the alignment. And if you look at the lap times of the GTS Vs. the TA at Laguna Seca, they are not that different. The TA springs are only 10% stiffer than the GTS springs, not enough of a difference to matter. I think the sway bars are stiffer, however.

The other big improvement to be gained is from the carbon aero package, if you don't already have it. I added that to my GTS as well, and it is fantastic at the track.

Thank you for the response. I intended to do the aero package but could not find a good deal at the time. Did you go with the factory package or aftermarket?

Another reason why I was thinking about this change was the fact that I scrape the front end at our local track at some of the brake point which happens to be on the bottom of a downhill. I have been actually letting go off some lap time just not to scrape so hard : )

[Tamvette]

After you pointed out that TA springs are only 10% stiffer, I checked out the ACR springs and they are 3x in Front and about 2x in the Rear spring stiffness. Do you guys know if the valving is different for the ACR shocks?

[Dman]

The ACR springs are only that stiff to handle the extra 1600lbs more of down force than the TA. It would only make sense to use them if you did the ACR aero.

[J TNT]

Great thread ! Is there much added benefit to using the T/A Front and Rear sway bar ?

[Tamvette]

The ACR springs are only that stiff to handle the extra 1600lbs more of down force than the TA. It would only make sense to use them if you did the ACR aero.

I understand that but this is my only car that scrapes that much at the track, possibly a combination of much faster speeds and relatively street suspension setup. Do you think it would be a problem to have that stiff spring with no aero? I don't mind it being an overkill or uncomfortable as long as it doesn't actually hinder the handling.

[Coder]

Tamvette-

I'm doing almost exactly what you're doing, but I am not doing the springs because I too was told the 10% difference isn't worth it in the least.

I have the full aero kit on order, arrives in a couple weeks.I bought the T/A 1.0 kit. Rear spoiler, front splitters, rear ducts and back applique. I got it all from Tim at bolt-on-mods (http://www.bolt-on-mods.com/) and he cut e a deal because I was ordering several pieces.

I picked up the front a rear sways and shorly, I'll be picking up the Arrow Racing PCM from Any Wheeler.

Viper did create 10 GTS T/A models back in 2015, they were all carbon mind you. What you and I are doing is the same thing, sans springs.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xXxJmKNLfBg/maxresdefault.jpg

notice the side label - GTS with T/A under it. Also, the breaks on the GTS are lighter than the brakes on the T/A so that's nice.

[Arizona Vipers]

I'm doing the same thing on my SRT track pack. The springs/shocks/bars should will be installed soon. FYI the TA sway bars will add 14 lbs of weight.
I already installed the rear spoiler and front splitter from http://xtremesupercars.com/ (awesome quality and GREAT customer service)

[Coder]

I was going to use extreme, they were the first company I contacted but then they were pushed back with orders meaning I'd be waiting longer, and Tim gave me a better price than they were offering. Both are same quality so no matter which way you go you'll be happy.

Once I get my installed I'll take some high res photos (7000+ pixels)

[Tamvette]

Thanks for the info on the aero. I wanted to get the TA 2.0 setup for the aero but still don't see any deals on it. However I just saw below from Arizona Viper's post in the other thread, it is surprising to see minimal difference between TA 1.0 and TA 2.0. I wish there was a graph comparison as 2.0 might have a bigger advantage on slower speeds.

1.0
278@150
460@top speed

2.0
400@150
662@top speed

ACR
1101@150
1533@177

ACR-E
1200+@150
1700+@177

My question on the ACR shock valving still stands, (I searched but just found marketing descriptions which doesn't really help), is it the same as GTS/TA shock valving or valved more aggressively?

[Arizona Vipers]

I wanted to get the TA 2.0 setup for the aero but still don't see any deals on it. However I just saw below from Arizona Viper's post in the other thread, it is surprising to see minimal difference between TA 1.0 and TA 2.0. I


278 lbs vs. 400 lbs is a 44% increase... And like somebody else said, the difference might be a lot different at low speeds... But I'd rather track a car without a giant wing on it, until I need to step up to the ACR-E.
When you're on a track and have a big ass wing, you better be the fastest out there. LOL. With the TA 1.0 spoiler you can still make excuses for being 2nd! :smilielol:

[Bruce H.]

After you pointed out that TA springs are only 10% stiffer, I checked out the ACR springs and they are 3x in Front and about 2x in the Rear spring stiffness. Do you guys know if the valving is different for the ACR shocks?

ACR damper valving would be different, and likely the whole damper and electronics as well. A performance damper's valving is designed to work with a specific spring rate (or somewhat narrow range of rates), and a significant change in spring rate will require a change in valving. Apparently SRT provided Randy Pobst with differently valved dampers to try on the T/A and his preference was chosen for production for the T/A's unique setup. Note also that high end dampers like those used on the MCS coilover can be sent in for revalving when spring rates are changed, but I don't believe the OEM Bilstein can.


The ACR springs are only that stiff to handle the extra 1600lbs more of down force than the TA. It would only make sense to use them if you did the ACR aero.

And some very advanced track rats will also go to much heavier rates on the MCS coilovers, and have them valved accordingly.


Great thread ! Is there much added benefit to using the T/A Front and Rear sway bar ?

Sway bars should be considered more of a suspension tuning device, and that's why some are actually made adjustable, but first you have to get the spring rates pretty close. Swapping sway bar rates after that can have a mild or pronounced impact on the car's handling. Combining softer springs and stiff bars would not be good at all. Andi swapped the front bar on his T/A and successfully changed the handling to suit his driving style and preference. If you wanted to changed the balance on your car you could certainly consider a bar change. You'd just need to know what rates you have on it now, what change would be needed to make your desired improvement, and then which available bar(s) might get you there.


I understand that but this is my only car that scrapes that much at the track, possibly a combination of much faster speeds and relatively street suspension setup. Do you think it would be a problem to have that stiff spring with no aero? I don't mind it being an overkill or uncomfortable as long as it doesn't actually hinder the handling.

Few have reported scraping. My TA does on 2 unusually high grip brake zones which also allows some turn-in that compresses one corner's spring more than you could when pointed straight. It was the fender flap that hangs down in front of the tires that was mostly scraping and I suspect that is probably what you hear. Check to see if yours is worn down, and if any other area is scraping. If you had the front aero splitter it might scrape as well, but since you don't then it's probably the flap. You also don't have the stronger brakes of the T/A loading the front. So if it's just the little flaps scraping then that isn't a problem that requires you to find a solution. Also, what does the info display show your peak braking g's are?

Bruce

[Dman]

I understand that but this is my only car that scrapes that much at the track, possibly a combination of much faster speeds and relatively street suspension setup. Do you think it would be a problem to have that stiff spring with no aero? I don't mind it being an overkill or uncomfortable as long as it doesn't actually hinder the handling.

Can you tell where you're scraping? You have no aero on right now, right? On my GTS I removed the wheel flap plastic dangly things, I was scraping those. If you do any TA aero, you don't need those. I'm halfway in my TA aero, did spoiler, fronts awaiting budget relief. ;-)

Check out Bruce H's post on the MCS and springs, that's interesting, I'd be interested in how that combo is on the street, I bet not too bad with the MCS setup, although it's starting to get into real money as you go.

[darbgnik]

Few have reported scraping. My TA does on 2 unusually high grip brake zones which also allows some turn-in that compresses one corner's spring more than you could when pointed straight. It was the fender flap that hangs down in front of the tires that was mostly scraping and I suspect that is probably what you hear. Check to see if yours is worn down, and if any other area is scraping. If you had the front aero splitter it might scrape as well, but since you don't then it's probably the flap. You also don't have the stronger brakes of the T/A loading the front. So if it's just the little flaps scraping then that isn't a problem that requires you to find a solution. Also, what does the info display show your peak braking g's are?

Bruce

My little flap thingies scrape under high corner load braking. I actually got flagged off the track for an inspection when a corner marshal caught it. A brief explanation, along with a point to my worn down thingies, and I was back in action.

I will soon see if the Tractive dampers will help this or not. I know it's been debated, whether their active setup can cancel out the need for a stiffer spring, but the proof will be in the pudding soon enough. It makes sense to me that it could be possible, by momentarily resisting compression, when asked to, effectively acting like a stiffer spring rate, but again, I'll put that to the test.

I also doubt the TA brakes make any significant difference on loading the suspension, sure they'll last longer, but stop techs and good pads can still overwhelm front end grip if you want, they just wont do it for as long......

[Bruce H.]

Can you tell where you're scraping? You have no aero on right now, right? On my GTS I removed the wheel flap plastic dangly things, I was scraping those. If you do any TA aero, you don't need those. I'm halfway in my TA aero, did spoiler, fronts awaiting budget relief. ;-)

Check out Bruce H's post on the MCS and springs, that's interesting, I'd be interested in how that combo is on the street, I bet not too bad with the MCS setup, although it's starting to get into real money as you go.

One user I discussed this with said ride quality actually slightly improved with the MCS and much stiffer springs on his TA. Ride quality and performance improvement is all in the valving, and I've experienced both with much stiffer race springs in the past matched with a superior damper. The Bilsteins leave much to be desired IMO, and Mark J at Woodhouse can help achieve both with the MCS, and Andy at Viper Exchange with the DSC/Tractive active damper system. Very positive road and track feedback by knowledgeable Gen V track rats for both systems.

[Bruce H.]

I will soon see if the Tractive dampers will help this or not. I know it's been debated, whether their active setup can cancel out the need for a stiffer spring, but the proof will be in the pudding soon enough. It makes sense to me that it could be possible, by momentarily resisting compression, when asked to, effectively acting like a stiffer spring rate, but again, I'll put that to the test.
This is along the lines of the function of what progressive rate springs do, providing comfortable ride yet increased support under demanding conditions.

Conventional race dampers require periodic valve and seal refreshing, and even more so I would have thought if the valving is taking on the function of stiffer race springs. I was never able to get a detailed answer on durability and the need, frequency and cost for recommended periodic refreshing, ability and cost to rebuild blown dampers, turn around time for either service, and if there was a warranty and what it covered. The system had just been released and was new to VE at the time. The race dampers I mentioned above did have a recommended refresh interval, which I neglected to carefully follow, and when I blew a damper and tried to send them in I found the damper had been discontinued and the service no longer available, although parts were if you had a damper rebuild shop that could do it. The piston was scored and not available so I had to repurpose the set as expensive paper weights.


I also doubt the TA brakes make any significant difference on loading the suspension, sure they'll last longer, but stop techs and good pads can still overwhelm front end grip if you want, they just wont do it for as long......

And that, along with a car's coolant, oil, steering, transmission, differential and brake fluid cooling ability makes all the difference between the single hero lap times posted for Laguna Seca and the times for the rest of the session and day. I can fade the T/A brakes at will on my home track, with them being marginal when I manage their heat carefully. The SRT Motorsports 15" 6 piston brakes, now available from VE, were recommended to me by SRT if and when I needed the upgrade. I get by fine with the Corsa and stock suspension, but upgrading either could be kind of pointless without the brakes. Hopefully your local track and driving style will work well with your setup.

[Stealth]

My '14 GTS has the TA Sway Bars, front and rear, and the TA 1.0 Aero. They are the same dimensions as the stock GTS Bars, but solid instead of hollow. I did a HPDE without the Bars and with them, and the car handles better with the bars. It is flatter in the turns and appears to turn in better. It was a great, relatively inexpensive mode. I was running on a smooth, high-speed track in Track mode. I did not change to the TA Alignment because the car handled very well for my tastes, I only participate in the occasional HPDE, and I did not want to eat my tires.

[Tamvette]

Thank you everyone for all the replies. Now that I read it, it looks pretty straightforward that ACR suspension valving would have to be different with huge difference in spring rates, maybe I shouldn't ask questions past midnight. (Taking care of a 4 month old :) )

Please see below for the G readings from the last track day:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xy5MvlXrCT9pN_fxjSLkPT1ZtuR_O4PX7A

I took a quick look at the little flap you guys described and could see the left one completely destroyed and right side damaged. There is some damage under the front of the car but hard to say if that is from track use or driveway. I don't have any aero kit on the car yet, I am planning to add it later on.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yaFLWkUxRssqBuhQiIXu1MxOgE-CTVkH6A/view?usp=sharing

Just to add some more info on this, I drove the car at our local track which I am very familiar at and kept things relatively slow to get used to the car. I am just worried this will be a bigger problem for me if I actually push the car. I also had the stock brake pads that day, I will soon install Raybestos ST47 - ST45 combo which will make the car dive even more. Here is the footage from that day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blhy9xRQXvA

I have Ohlins coilovers for my other car and have to send it for rebuild almost every year, I really like the convenience of the stock setup hence I am trying to keep it stock but a little stiffer. Although from what I have read so far there is no simple solution, I might have to keep installing new "flaps" until I switch to aftermarket or ACR setup.

[Stealth]

I would start with the TA Alignment, TA 1.0 Aero and Sway Bars (front and rear) and see how that feels before changing springs, shocks, etc.

[darbgnik]

And that, along with a car's coolant, oil, steering, transmission, differential and brake fluid cooling ability makes all the difference between the single hero lap times posted for Laguna Seca and the times for the rest of the session and day. I can fade the T/A brakes at will on my home track, with them being marginal when I manage their heat carefully. The SRT Motorsports 15" 6 piston brakes, now available from VE, were recommended to me by SRT if and when I needed the upgrade. I get by fine with the Corsa and stock suspension, but upgrading either could be kind of pointless without the brakes. Hopefully your local track and driving style will work well with your setup.

I'm not sure if it's my driving style, or track, but I have yet to overwhelm the brakes on this car. On my previous Viper, on a larger faster track, I only ever did it on an extended, end of day session over 45 minutes...... I'm actually surprised I haven't overwhelmed the brakes on this car yet though, to be honest, as I'm kind of a hack(aggressive) as a driver. I consistently overcooked the brakes on my Gallardo on this track, with fresh fluid each time. Too bad the "has to better than 4 pot" 8 pot Lamborghini calipers didn't work as well as they looked.

Believe it or not, I am actually not averse to finding the limit of these brakes, as I wouldn't mind experimenting with a setup like the V/E BBK. When I bought this car, it came with the Sidewinders and Corsas, but steelie rotors, so part of the deal was cash to cover the Track Pack brake upgrade. When I bought them, Jon B had a pretty good deal on the TA rotors, which I considered, but ultimately passed on them for the lighter, supposedly reasonably acceptable on the last ACR, Track Pack jobbies. So far so good!

Have you experimented with the ACR A-arm brake scoops yet?

[Bruce H.]

Have you experimented with the ACR A-arm brake scoops yet?

I haven't, but will.

A multi-year Porsche championship driver on my home track (Mosport) recommends to always basically threshold brake, regardless of how much speed you need to shed. That allows you to stay on the gas as long as possible, brake as briefly as possible, and back on the gas as soon as possible. Less time coasting or using partial brake and throttle. So when I'm in a brake zone I late brake, brake hard while still straight, fully release as I go to maintenance throttle to balance, and roll into the throttle as the corner opens up. The side benefit of that style of very brief but hard braking is that it reduces the amount of heat soak and transfer into the brake pads, caliper and fluid, thereby reducing the likelihood of fade.

You and others may already be braking similar to that, but it may be worth a try for those experiencing fade. Many are taught or prefer to trail brake, and there certainly is more than one way to go fast around a track, but I think this technique is good for both brake fade resistance and perhaps front tire life.

Bruce

[VENOM V]

Tamvette, after reading through your goals, I suggest contacting Mark Jorgensen of Woodhouse. He can supply you with an MCS dual or triple adjustable Coilover set. As was previously mentioned, the MCS springs are quite a bit stiffer and the dampers are some of the best out there. Mark can work with you to get different springs if need be. Many believe the MCS to be better at the track the the stock TA suspension. Plus you will be able to adjust ride height and rake to dial it into your liking.

[darbgnik]

I haven't, but will.

A multi-year Porsche championship driver on my home track (Mosport) recommends to always basically threshold brake, regardless of how much speed you need to shed. That allows you to stay on the gas as long as possible, brake as briefly as possible, and back on the gas as soon as possible. Less time coasting or using partial brake and throttle. So when I'm in a brake zone I late brake, brake hard while still straight, fully release as I go to maintenance throttle to balance, and roll into the throttle as the corner opens up. The side benefit of that style of very brief but hard braking is that it reduces the amount of heat soak and transfer into the brake pads, caliper and fluid, thereby reducing the likelihood of fade.

You and others may already be braking similar to that, but it may be worth a try for those experiencing fade. Many are taught or prefer to trail brake, and there certainly is more than one way to go fast around a track, but I think this technique is good for both brake fade resistance and perhaps front tire life.

Bruce

Yup, that threshold style describes me to a tee, minus the multi-year championships, lol. I always considered myself to be a hack just because of this style. Full throttle, late full brake, turn it in, wind it out, repeat.

[J TNT]

Thanks Bruce for the quick response and detailed information !
Let me know when you are ready for the ACR A-arm brake scoops , I may be able to help you out . Look forward to seeing you and Deb at the AGM in 2 weeks ! :)
ACR damper valving would be different, and likely the whole damper and electronics as well. A performance damper's valving is designed to work with a specific spring rate (or somewhat narrow range of rates), and a significant change in spring rate will require a change in valving. Apparently SRT provided Randy Pobst with differently valved dampers to try on the T/A and his preference was chosen for production for the T/A's unique setup. Note also that high end dampers like those used on the MCS coilover can be sent in for revalving when spring rates are changed, but I don't believe the OEM Bilstein can.



And some very advanced track rats will also go to much heavier rates on the MCS coilovers, and have them valved accordingly.



Sway bars should be considered more of a suspension tuning device, and that's why some are actually made adjustable, but first you have to get the spring rates pretty close. Swapping sway bar rates after that can have a mild or pronounced impact on the car's handling. Combining softer springs and stiff bars would not be good at all. Andi swapped the front bar on his T/A and successfully changed the handling to suit his driving style and preference. If you wanted to changed the balance on your car you could certainly consider a bar change. You'd just need to know what rates you have on it now, what change would be needed to make your desired improvement, and then which available bar(s) might get you there.



Few have reported scraping. My TA does on 2 unusually high grip brake zones which also allows some turn-in that compresses one corner's spring more than you could when pointed straight. It was the fender flap that hangs down in front of the tires that was mostly scraping and I suspect that is probably what you hear. Check to see if yours is worn down, and if any other area is scraping. If you had the front aero splitter it might scrape as well, but since you don't then it's probably the flap. You also don't have the stronger brakes of the T/A loading the front. So if it's just the little flaps scraping then that isn't a problem that requires you to find a solution. Also, what does the info display show your peak braking g's are?

Bruce

[Stealth]

Have you experimented with the ACR A-arm brake scoops yet?

I just added these to my GTS--still need to dremel them further to avoid some hitting at full lock reverses. I also added Castrol SRF.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks Bruce for the quick response and detailed information !
Let me know when you are ready for the ACR A-arm brake scoops , I may be able to help you out . Look forward to seeing you and Deb at the AGM in 2 weeks ! :)Thanks Jay, you and Cathy as well...and I'll look forward to hearing the scoop on scoops anytime!

[Arizona Vipers]

I always considered myself to be a hack just because of this style. Full throttle, late full brake, turn it in, wind it out, repeat.

Isn't this all of us? LOL. What else is there?

[Bruce H.]

Isn't this all of us? LOL. What else is there?

Being a hacker that's smooth at the controls :)

The difference I was describing, and that I think Brad was saying he also does, is generally the lack of trail-braking after the threshold braking.

[Nine Ball]

I tracked my '13 SRT and my '14 TA, and never overcooked the brakes in either car....until I ran at COTA. The short tracks that are not deep into 5th gear, you likely won't have an issue with the stock brakes in SRT/GTS or TA form. I did upgrade my pads (Carbotech) recently, for more added bite. Noticeable difference from just a pad swap.

The plastic flaps that are being discussed, get removed when you do the TA1.0 aero. They were never supposed to be installed with aero, according to SRT engineers. The TA aero itself does not reduce ground clearance, they basically shoot straight out on the bottom, even with the lowest point on the bumper (in front of the tire). So, if anything, you actually gain ground clearance if you do the aero and remove the plastic flaps.

If I were starting with a GTS, I'd just do the TA sways, alignment, pads, tires, aero. But, I also never recommend just throwing a bunch of parts at the car at once. It would be beneficial to see how each modification changes the car. Alignment and tires alone would make the biggest difference.

Tony

[mjorgensen]

Tamvette, after reading through your goals, I suggest contacting Mark Jorgensen of Woodhouse. He can supply you with an MCS dual or triple adjustable Coilover set. As was previously mentioned, the MCS springs are quite a bit stiffer and the dampers are some of the best out there. Mark can work with you to get different springs if need be. Many believe the MCS to be better at the track the the stock TA suspension. Plus you will be able to adjust ride height and rake to dial it into your liking.

Thanks for the endorsement Todd ;-)

Would like to add that even with the rates we run on the ACR setup 600-700 front and 1300-1500 rear we have yet to have an MCS failure, seals or otherwise using the 2 way or the ACR spec 3 way MCS. The cars do ride better than stock, the ACR does also. The MCS are designed to soak up the bumps and curbing during sharp impact (high piston speed event) so the car is smooth and settled through the corner in these situations giving you the confidence to stay in the gas at corner exit. The new ACR suspension is very good, won't ever say different and have not pushed the MCS switch on anyone because of this. I have many past and present MCS customers though that know how good the Motion Control Suspension is and have switched to them right out of the box because in their mind they will be faster.

[J TNT]

Thanks Mark for sharing your expertise !
And you customer service with MCS suspension is Top Tier !!! :)
Jay