Insulated Air Box - Phase 2

[Jack B]

1. I installed an air deflector plate that goes between the air box and the radiator air stream. The plate will keep the direct hot air off of the cold air box. The plate has fluted edges on the bottom side which should push the air to the outside and take advantage of the hood openings, in addition, the hot air will be deflected away from the engine.

2. When I insulated the air box the passenger side valve cover breather attachment to the box was capped. The breather on the drivers side valve cover is 1/2 of the PCV system. In theory the the breather supplies filtered air from the air box to the crankcase. The problem with this scheme on most cars is that at WOT the PCV valve (passenger side) does not always have the capacity to vent the crankcase, in affect, the breather (drivers side) now becomes a second vent (not breather) and the oil vapor from the crankcase can be ingested by the engine thru the air box.

Secondly, the rerouting was also done to keep the hot crankcase air from heating up the air box and IAT sensor when the engine was shut off. The pictures below shows the breather hose being rerouted to a mini-catch can mounted on the engine side of the wheel well liner.


2056205720582059

[Nine Ball]

I like the shroud, and bet just that alone would work well on a non-insulated box. Or at least it would greatly delay the heat soak from the fan wash.

[01sapphirebob]

Great work Jack!

[ViperGeorge]

1. I installed an air deflector plate that goes between the air box and the radiator air stream. The plate will keep the direct hot air off of the cold air box. The plate has fluted edges on the bottom side which should push the air to the outside and take advantage of the hood openings, in addition, the hot air will be deflected away from the engine.

2. When I insulated the air box the passenger side valve cover breather attachment to the box was capped. The breather on the drivers side valve cover is 1/2 of the PCV system. In theory the the breather supplies filtered air from the air box to the crankcase. The problem with this scheme on most cars is that at WOT the PCV valve (passenger side) does not always have the capacity to vent the crankcase, in affect, the breather (drivers side) now becomes a second vent (not breather) and the oil vapor from the crankcase can be ingested by the engine thru the air box.

Secondly, the rerouting was also done to keep the hot crankcase air from heating up the air box and IAT sensor when the engine was shut off. The pictures below shows the breather hose being rerouted to a mini-catch can mounted on the engine side of the wheel well liner.


2056205720582059

So when will you start mass producing these things so the rest of us lazy guys can use your idea? :)

[PeerBlock]

I think that SRT engineers considered airflow through the engine bay as part of their design process so I wouldn't make changes without having a reasonably good idea of what the effects will be.

From my observation, adding that plate behind the radiator to deflect the air seems like it would create a high pressure bubble of hot air at speed, reducing overall radiator efficiency. The plate itself would heat soak at idle or low speeds, plus, without the deflector you get a "ram air" effect when the car is moving, and even though said air is passing some heat from the radiator, the volume is high enough to offset any negative effects of having the intake air heated.

If your goal is avoid having intake air heated by the radiator, a possible solution could be to buy a compact, high efficiency aluminum racing radiator which is smaller than the stock unit, perhaps by about half in terms of height. This way, you can have full airflow over the radiator which maintains stock cooling efficiency, while using the newly opened space you gain above where the old radiator used to be as a path to duct cool air directly into the intake without having it draw heat from the radiator.

[FLATOUT]

Dude these guys are about 100 steps past you lol. We have been working on a solution to this problem for months now.

Also adding a plate to deflect the radiator wash does nothing to affect the Ram Air as its mounted underneath the air box, an area that doesn't pull any airflow into the intake tract.

There is a massive thread by Nineball and or Jack B with lots of great data and the different temp measurements taken on track, at idle, and cruising speeds.


I think that SRT engineers considered airflow through the engine bay as part of their design process so I wouldn't make changes without having a reasonably good idea of what the effects will be.

From my observation, adding that plate behind the radiator to deflect the air seems like it would create a high pressure bubble of hot air at speed, reducing overall radiator efficiency. The plate itself would heat soak at idle or low speeds, plus, without the deflector you get a "ram air" effect when the car is moving, and even though said air is passing some heat from the radiator, the volume is high enough to offset any negative effects of having the intake air heated.

If your goal is avoid having intake air heated by the radiator, a possible solution could be to buy a compact, high efficiency aluminum racing radiator which is smaller than the stock unit, perhaps by about half in terms of height. This way, you can have full airflow over the radiator which maintains stock cooling efficiency, while using the newly opened space you gain above where the old radiator used to be as a path to duct cool air directly into the intake without having it draw heat from the radiator.

[Jack B]

It is nice to be wanted, the arm chair quarterback has arrived - moderators beware.

Thankfully, this site also has an "Ignore" list. I just added my first unnamed individual to the "Ignore" list.

For information sake, I have a similar plate on my my NA G2, how many 8L NA G2's have turned a 10.91 sec quarter when the DA was 3000. The plate on the G5 follows the contour of the airbox, therefore, changes very little to the overall dynamics. The diff is the air is not blowing directly on the box.

PeerBlock - please go back to the VCA, I hear they are looking for some regional presidents.



My thoughts exactly.:stickmen_burningsti

[PeerBlock]

Dude these guys are about 100 steps past you lol. We have been working on a solution to this problem for months now.

Also adding a plate to deflect the radiator wash does nothing to affect the Ram Air as its mounted underneath the air box, an area that doesn't pull any airflow into the intake tract.

There is a massive thread by Nineball and or Jack B with lots of great data and the different temp measurements taken on track, at idle, and cruising speeds.

A solution to what problem, exactly? If having a plate behind the radiator was such a great improvement, why didn't SRT include one? Even if they just went with a cheap plastic deflector it would hardly add to the cost of the car - and apparently it would add great benefit. Did they leave it out just to give us something to do?




Thankfully, this site also has an "Ignore" list. I just added my first unnamed individual to the "Ignore" list.

For information sake, I have a similar plate on my my NA G2, how many 8L NA G2's have turned a 10.91 sec quarter when the DA was 3000. The plate on the G5 follows the contour of the airbox, therefore, changes very little to the overall dynamics. The diff is the air is not blowing directly on the box.

PeerBlock - please go back to the VCA, I hear they are looking for some regional presidents.

Are you seriously attributing a 10 sec quarter mile pass to the inclusion of a plate behind your radiator? :confused: OooooK.

Don't worry, jacky, I'm just here to back as you up seeing as how you've donned the role of armchair thermodynamics engineer. I'm sure that right after you solve the "heat issues" that the viper doesn't have, you'll tackle the other real problem of climate change and melting icecaps using your perpetual motion machine.

I'd really love to hear the reason why SRT put so much engineering effort into the Gen V only to skimp on a deflector plate which you allege improves engine performance without any adverse effects on the engine cooling system.

[ViperSmith]

A solution to what problem, exactly? If having a plate behind the radiator was such a great improvement, why didn't SRT include one? Even if they just went with a cheap plastic deflector it would hardly add to the cost of the car - and apparently it would add great benefit. Did they leave it out just to give us something to do?



Are you seriously attributing a 10 sec quarter mile pass to the inclusion of a plate behind your radiator? :confused: OooooK.

Don't worry, jacky, I'm just here to back as you up seeing as how you've donned the role of armchair thermodynamics engineer. I'm sure that right after you solve the "heat issues" that the viper doesn't have, you'll tackle the other real problem of climate change and melting icecaps using your perpetual motion machine.

I'd really love to hear the reason why SRT put so much engineering effort into the Gen V only to skimp on a deflector plate which you allege improves engine performance without any adverse effects on the engine cooling system.

Yeah, I am sure SRT prefers the IAT to be 40 degrees above outside temp when sitting still.

Why don't you read the other thread to get some back story.

It is obviously something SRT missed, they admitted as much.

[ViperSmith]

Jack, I sent you a private message.

[FLATOUT]

Peer I mentioned the other thread so that you would go read it before posting again, it doesn't sound like you read it.

[PeerBlock]

Yeah, I am sure SRT prefers the IAT to be 40 degrees above outside temp when sitting still.

Why don't you read the other thread to get some back story.

It is obviously something SRT missed, they admitted as much.

I'm not sure what you think they missed. Sitting and idling is not what most people do with their Vipers...and the moment you start moving the IAT issue effectively vanishes.

If the car is not working as designed per spec, then it should be construed as a mechanical defect which should be addressed by SRT themselves and repaired under warranty. As a customer I would expect to receive a notification regarding a TSB for having this "issue" fixed. I haven't received such a notice yet so apparently SRT is still in denial or it's not a real problem.


Peer I mentioned the other thread so that you would go read it before posting again, it doesn't sound like you read it.

It sounds like you did read it so do me a solid and give me the readers' digest version of it.

[Nine Ball]

I'm not sure what you think they missed. Sitting and idling is not what most people do with their Vipers...and the moment you start moving the IAT issue effectively vanishes.

If the car is not working as designed per spec, then it should be construed as a mechanical defect which should be addressed by SRT themselves and repaired under warranty. As a customer I would expect to receive a notification regarding a TSB for having this "issue" fixed. I haven't received such a notice yet so apparently SRT is still in denial or it's not a real problem.

I actually have been discussing this with SRT. You can go test this in your driveway, here is the thread that these topics stem from. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found?highlight=intake+temp)

Maybe try and be a little less offensive in 2014? Jack is trying to help, and we could do without the drama.

Tony

[Jack B]

Lastly, an answer to Peerblock's earlier post. Yes I am an engineer and yes I have accreditation's in a field that uses heat transfer theory.



I actually have been discussing this with SRT. You can go test this in your driveway, here is the thread that these topics stem from. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found?highlight=intake+temp)

Maybe try and be a little less offensive in 2014? Jack is trying to help, and we could do without the drama.

Tony

[PeerBlock]

I actually have been discussing this with SRT. You can go test this in your driveway, here is the thread that these topics stem from. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found?highlight=intake+temp)

Maybe try and be a little less offensive in 2014? Jack is trying to help, and we could do without the drama.

Tony

TL;DR

The IAT reads higher temps than ambient while after the car is idles for ~20 mins, which can cause the ECU to pull timing and reduce performance. Solution - don't idle your car for 20 minutes? :D

But seriously, if this is a real thing then SRT needs to step up, issue a TSB and fix it...and the fix must not be something as ridiculous as wrapping your engine bay with reflective foil that makes it look like a patchwork time machine out of an 80s movie.

If the sensor is getting heat soaked, which seems to be the case, then the non-ghetto solution might be to add another sensor that is located closer to the exterior of the car, away from any heat source and not in the engine bay so that it reads the actual ambient air temp. The ECU would then need to be updated to compare the temperature of the external sensor with the IAT, and then compensate for the IAT sensor's heat-soaked readings accordingly if there is a large discrepancy.

Another way of looking at this is a test of skill - the Viper starts out fast but gradually slows down, forcing you to drive better to win races. It's like leveling up in a video game - the higher level gets more difficult, so even a boring oval track can suddenly become a circle of challenge.


Yes I am an engineer and yes I have accreditation's in a field that uses heat transfer theory.

[Voice of Reason]

[QUOTE=PeerBlock;19258]TL;DR

The IAT reads higher temps than ambient while after the car is idles for ~20 mins, which can cause the ECU to pull timing and reduce performance. Solution - don't idle your car for 20 minutes? :D

But seriously, if this is a real thing then SRT needs to step up, issue a TSB and fix it...and the fix must not be something as ridiculous as wrapping your engine bay with reflective foil that makes it look like a patchwork time machine out of an 80s movie.

If the sensor is getting heat soaked, which seems to be the case, then the non-ghetto solution might be to add another sensor that is located closer to the exterior of the car, away from any heat source and not in the engine bay so that it reads the actual ambient air temp. The ECU would then need to be updated to compare the temperature of the external sensor with the IAT, and then compensate for the IAT sensor's heat-soaked readings accordingly if there is a large discrepancy.

Another way of looking at this is a test of skill - the Viper starts out fast but gradually slows down, forcing you to drive better to win races. It's like leveling up in a video game - the higher level gets more difficult, so even a boring oval track can suddenly become a circle of challenge.



Cliffs? GFY;DR

[whitebeard]

I seem to be repeating myself, but since it seems we need a parrot to keep things in check...

This is not the Alley or AG. Please refrain from antagonistic and intentional smack.

We are not VCA either, no swinging the wand either.

Please keep threads on track and to the point. Thank you.

Think of mods as the crew from the movie RoadHouse (Yea I went there and I am cringing in utter disgust). We are all coolers. You have fun, you share laughs and information. Be nice above all. Be nice till it is time not to be nice. All we want to do is help the barkeeps fill the bar and sweep the floor if needed.

[Jack B]

I seem to be repeating myself, but since it seems we need a parrot to keep things in check...

This is not the Alley or AG. Please refrain from antagonistic and intentional smack.

We are not VCA either, no swinging the wand either.

Please keep threads on track and to the point. Thank you.

Think of mods as the crew from the movie RoadHouse (Yea I went there and I am cringing in utter disgust). We are all coolers. You have fun, you share laughs and information. Be nice above all. Be nice till it is time not to be nice. All we want to do is help the barkeeps fill the bar and sweep the floor if needed.

Editing for content

[FLATOUT]

Agree 100%

Excellent post Jack.

[ViperSmith]

Gotta agree with Jack.

I am a total noob, but I know what I don't know :)

[ViperTony]

As with your numerous DIY contributions to the Viper community over the years your assessment above is detailed, scientific and backed up by data. Well done. Please continue with the topic of the thread. You have the support of your Viper brothers and sisters. Keep up the great work.

[Space Truckin]

as with your numerous diy contributions to the viper community over the years your assessment above is detailed, scientific and backed up by data. Well done. Please continue with the topic of the thread. You have the support of your viper brothers and sisters. Keep up the great work.

^^^what he said^^^ x2

[PeerBlock]

Post removed for numerous personal attacks on forum members, which won't be tolerated on the VOA forums.

[FLATOUT]

.....

[Jack B]

Remind me not to start a post on the rear end.

The air/oil separator came in, it goes on tomorrow.



Could we call this mod "Jack N The Box" from now on?

Thought I'd interject some humor :)

[I Bin Therbefor]

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF A SRT Viper GT3-R HOOD WILL FIT? SHOULD HANDLE THE AIR FLOW PROBLEM FOR COOLING. FORGIVE THE CAPS, I'M NOT YELLING, JUST STUCK.:anonymous:

[SmoknTires]

So we're doing the bidding of the loudest whiners and calling it a "majority vote"? Great idea, fuhrer. While we're at it, let's just vote in $200K per month salaries for the moderators for the tough work they do in deleting posts they don't like while allowing other "offending" posts to persist. I'm sure they'd all agree to that if it were put to ballot.

After getting all the VCA and VOA email spam I was under the impression that the VOA was started to get away from the whiny little nobody's who think they dictate "the way it's gonna be" and throw a tantrum if things are not the way they want. Such whiny people should not be driving vipers in the first place - that's what porsches are for.





PeerBlock... We made a commitment that the past censorship we experienced with the past club would not continue - and it hasn't. However, at the very least, our moderators do make sure people are civil to each other and not this disrespectful. Things have been overwhelmingly positive here, and that's how we want it to stay. There are no majority whiners that I'm relying one - using my own judgment - and after reading this thread - you're rough. Let's ease it up please. Less anger.

The mods have a tough job, and in the VOA we have decided not to make them anonymous. They spend hours sifting through this type of stuff. I don't want their jobs made harder, they are not the enemy.

And if there are posts you feel need to be considered due to content, let us know. I'll guarantee they're looked at personally. I'll be the final judge, and you can blame me if you're not satisfied. So let's make more nicey, nice please.

[Revolution]

Like the way the ideas are coming in on this problem, going to try some solutions myself! On a side not I can't find the thread but what are the effects of removing the screen on the Gen 4 hoods, from the vents both in cooling and aerodynamics?

[FLATOUT]

Edit.

[QUOTE=PeerBlock;19706]You gotta admit that it's pretty funny how the moment anyone challenges the idea that the "IAT in the viper is broken and it's up to Jacky B to fix it", the thread degenerates into a trollfest (entirely initiated and perpetuated by Jacky B and his lovers).

I'd say that pretty much proves the ignorance of certain viper owners. Jacky likes to make it seem like he's doing something great when in reality he's making up a problem and then pretending to offer a solution...and there are just enough mouth-breathers who buy into it. Stick a thermometer on there and suddenly he's a "scientist"...lolol And you people can vote...that's the scary + sad part...

Now tell me, are any of you REALLY going to cover your $100K+ viper with ghetto foil wrap to solve a non-existent problem? REALLY? Are any of you actually considering this "mod"? No, it's a safe bet that nobody is going to do this, but if you are not questioning a thread started by a guy who claims to be an engineer yet doesn't know what a transaxle is, and thinks the viper is a drag car, you should go ahead and slather some reflective silver paint all over your car to "fight the heat problems", that way your car won't overheat when you're running away from big foot or an errant UFO.

[FLATOUT]

Like the way the ideas are coming on this problem going to try some solutions myself! On a side not I can't find the thread but what are the effects of removing the screen on the Gen 4 hoods, from the vents both in cooling and aerodynamics?

The X's don't run them and I know that they do retain some heat. I removed mine last week after talking with Cody Whitehead about his experience in the 2010 Viper Cup in his X. He also had them removed in his street ACR.

[Revolution]

The X's don't run them and I know that they do retain some heat. I removed mine last week after talking with Cody Whitehead about his experience in the 2010 Viper Cup in his X. He also had them removed in his street ACR.

Any pics?

[FLATOUT]

Any pics?

I'll try and grab some tonight only junk cell phone pics right now.

[ACRucrazy]

From my understanding removing the screens not only help with cooling but also reduces lift on the front end like mentioned because relieving more of the trapped air under the hood.

[Revolution]

Thanks I would like to see how it looks, and also what type of tool did you use to remove them?

[ACRucrazy]

They are just pressed in with small plastic push pins. A panel popper or similar tool should remove the pins and the vent falls right out.

http://www.autotraderclassics.com/images/a/cms/75862/75862.jpg

https://www.viperpartsofamerica.com/images/products/1304_image.jpg

[FLATOUT]

Thanks I would like to see how it looks, and also what type of tool did you use to remove them?

Any local auto parts store, they make a small pry for interior and plastic fasteners. Wrap it in blue painters tape to keep from scratching any paint.

Thread hijack over.

[whitebeard]

http://www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/M327/PANEL-CLIP-PLIER/

I've used these on panels before and they work well, you need to use blue painters tape so as to not scratch paint (if needed). Because they are pliers frame based, you don't need to use the plastic as a fulcrum to remove. Just not sure how much room is there by the air box.

[Voice of Reason]

You gotta admit that it's pretty funny how the moment anyone challenges the idea that the "IAT in the viper is broken and it's up to Jacky B to fix it", the thread degenerates into a trollfest (entirely initiated and perpetuated by Jacky B and his lovers).

I'd say that pretty much proves the ignorance of certain viper owners. Jacky likes to make it seem like he's doing something great when in reality he's making up a problem and then pretending to offer a solution...and there are just enough mouth-breathers who buy into it. Stick a thermometer on there and suddenly he's a "scientist"...lolol And you people can vote...that's the scary + sad part...

Now tell me, are any of you REALLY going to cover your $100K+ viper with ghetto foil wrap to solve a non-existent problem? REALLY? Are any of you actually considering this "mod"? No, it's a safe bet that nobody is going to do this, but if you are not questioning a thread started by a guy who claims to be an engineer yet doesn't know what a transaxle is, and thinks the viper is a drag car, you should go ahead and slather some reflective silver paint all over your car to "fight the heat problems", that way your car won't overheat when you're running away from big foot or

Instead of rolling in here being a know it all why don't you read the half dozen threads we've already had on this topic, bring yourself up to speed on how this isn't an imagined issue or something created by Jack so he can learn us on thermal properties, and then contribute to the solution. If you cannot do this then any further of your posts on this topic are simply trolling, something I and many others simply have no tolerance for. Contribute or leave.

[PeerBlock]

Let's ease it up please. Less anger.

The mods have a tough job, and in the VOA we have decided not to make them anonymous. They spend hours sifting through this type of stuff. I don't want their jobs made harder, they are not the enemy.

And if there are posts you feel need to be considered due to content, let us know. I'll guarantee they're looked at personally. I'll be the final judge, and you can blame me if you're not satisfied. So let's make more nicey, nice please.

I'm not angry at or about anything - just skeptical. And aside from blatant spam or trolling I'm not going to be tattling on other members' posts just because I don't like what they say. No problem with the mods either, but I think the phrase "personal attack" needs to have its definition tightened up.


Instead of rolling in here being a know it all why don't you read the half dozen threads we've already had on this topic, bring yourself up to speed on how this isn't an imagined issue or something created by Jack so he can learn us on thermal properties, and then contribute to the solution. If you cannot do this then any further of your posts on this topic are simply trolling, something I and many others simply have no tolerance for. Contribute or leave.

Whoa broooo, I'm not "rolling in" anywhere. I've been around for a while, probably longer than you, and I keep hearing about these dozens of threads as if that adds legitimacy.

Let's do some math, with numbers

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!

Of course, that is only at peak power levels. At idle, the engine is not producing 640 HP and is also not radiating 1.08M BTU/hr of heat...but it is going to be producing a lot more heat than a typical car would and when it's not moving this heat has nowhere to go so a lot of it stays trapped under the hood. This is not an unusual thing for high performance cars, I might add.

So the point here is that a big motor that's making a lot of power is going to generate a lot of heat, and there is a limit to the rate at which it can dissipate this heat. It's not a "problem SRT missed" it's just a condition of having a powerful car with a huge engine and a relatively compact body. I don't really think most people on here appreciate how much power 640 HP actually is....this isn't some honda econo wagon.

I really get the impression that people who bought their Gen 5s then come on here and look for things to nitpick rather than enjoying their car. It's winter so some of us aren't driving their Vipers, but that's why the possibility of having multiple hobbies exists.

[FLATOUT]

You still need to read the other thread.

We are and have been addressing pulled timing and power loss do to radiator wash directly hitting the IAT sensor housings causing a significant rise in IAT's.

You think it's pointless to drag race a Viper, so be it, but some members on here really enjoy it and this is a problem for owners that enjoy their car in that venue.

Also I know that you are new to Vipers and only have limited experience with a Gen V Viper, but this not a new issue. If you study some of the cars in the Viper Cup series you will notice heat shielding, block off plates, and other remedies that were devised in this same fashion.




I'm not angry at or about anything - just skeptical. And aside from blatant spam or trolling I'm not going to be tattling on other members' posts just because I don't like what they say. No problem with the mods either, but I think the phrase "personal attack" needs to have its definition tightened up.



Whoa broooo, I'm not "rolling in" anywhere. I've been around for a while, probably longer than you, and I keep hearing about these dozens of threads as if that adds legitimacy.

Let's do some math, with numbers even tho Jacky B and FLATOUT are going to consider this a "personal attack"...

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!

Of course, that is only at peak power levels. At idle, the engine is not producing 640 HP and is also not radiating 1.08M BTU/hr of heat...but it is going to be producing a lot more heat than a typical car would and when it's not moving this heat has nowhere to go so a lot of it stays trapped under the hood. This is not an unusual thing for high performance cars, I might add.

So the point here is that a big motor that's making a lot of power is going to generate a lot of heat, and there is a limit to the rate at which it can dissipate this heat. It's not a "problem SRT missed" it's just a condition of having a powerful car with a huge engine and a relatively compact body. I don't really think most people on here appreciate how much power 640 HP actually is....this isn't some honda econo wagon.

I really get the impression that people who bought their Gen 5s then come on here and look for things to nitpick rather than enjoying their car. It's winter so some of us aren't driving their Vipers, but that's why the possibility of having multiple hobbies exists.

[mnc2886]

I'm not angry at or about anything - just skeptical. And aside from blatant spam or trolling I'm not going to be tattling on other members' posts just because I don't like what they say. No problem with the mods either, but I think the phrase "personal attack" needs to have its definition tightened up.



Whoa broooo, I'm not "rolling in" anywhere. I've been around for a while, probably longer than you, and I keep hearing about these dozens of threads as if that adds legitimacy.

Let's do some math, with numbers even tho Jacky B and FLATOUT are going to consider this a "personal attack"...

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!

Of course, that is only at peak power levels. At idle, the engine is not producing 640 HP and is also not radiating 1.08M BTU/hr of heat...but it is going to be producing a lot more heat than a typical car would and when it's not moving this heat has nowhere to go so a lot of it stays trapped under the hood. This is not an unusual thing for high performance cars, I might add.

So the point here is that a big motor that's making a lot of power is going to generate a lot of heat, and there is a limit to the rate at which it can dissipate this heat. It's not a "problem SRT missed" it's just a condition of having a powerful car with a huge engine and a relatively compact body. I don't really think most people on here appreciate how much power 640 HP actually is....this isn't some honda econo wagon.

I really get the impression that people who bought their Gen 5s then come on here and look for things to nitpick rather than enjoying their car. It's winter so some of us aren't driving their Vipers, but that's why the possibility of having multiple hobbies exists.

Wow, there is so much wrong with that post from an engineering and technical standpoint that it hurts. We've seen you now several times argue things to no end, regardless of proof so I won't begin to correct you.

[IndyRon]

Wow, there is so much wrong with that post from an engineering and technical standpoint that it hurts. We've seen you now several times argue things to no end, regardless of proof so I won't begin to correct you. You know what they say; never argue with an idiot because on-lookers can't tell who is who...

I second this. The overall concept isn't wrong...in fact it supports the argument that there is a significant amount of heat that is underhood and that this heat needs to be kept as far from the intake charge as possible. I'm not sure what he's arguing.

You can't quote actual numbers of BTU's without consideration of how and where the heat is lost, peerblock. For example, a signficant amount of that wasted heat from combustion is lost/evacuated right out the exhaust. I'm not sure if you have read the post by Nineball regarding the significant loss of performance of his car at the track on a warmer (not hot) day with a loss of at least 6-7mph of trap speed. That equates to close to 100hp. That is unacceptable. These guys are trying to find a way around that. If you are OK with this phenomenon in your car because you don't drag race, why does it bother you so much that they are not?

[Coloviper]

While not fixing the problem, I had an idea hit me that I will throw out there. Has anyone thought of creating another hood from the exact same measurements, molds, look as the original EXCEPT make it out of small honeycomb Aluminum so the entire hood vents the heat out. An exact match hood but made with aluminum that is entirely very small hole aluminum.

Don't think you can make that from Carbon Fiber as it would be way, way too weak as fibers would not had ability to bond to one another but from aluminum with small enough or micro holes, it would look factory from far but not be really noticed until about 5 or 10 feet. Kind of like a light painted carbon panel. Some you can not tell it is carbon fiber until about 12" away. Then you can see the fibers just belie the paint at certain angles.

Just a thought as crazy or impossible it might be! Zero air would be trapped under the hood as well. You would also see underneath the entire hood from certain angles which may or may not be cool to some!

[NI-KA]

While your heading down the road to another type hood... Could a hood be fashioned that works like the "ALMS" Viper hood. That hood "appeared" to exhaust the radiator heat up and out the top of the hood and allowed the intake air charge to come from in front of the radiator. Not sure how heat soak would work with that hood.

Naturally, the problem with changing the hood and the air box configuration is cost. Presently, the insulated air box appears to be the cost effective solution if it proves itself.

[Jack B]

For information purposes, I looked over at the VCA site and searched Peer's history with the site search engine. If the VCA search engine is correct, he started 11 threads in six months and not one was technical. As a matter of fact, From my perpective I would consider most of the topics borderline embarrassing. One of his first original posts after joining the VCA site was on floor mats, the Alley used that post to poke fun at the technical expertise left at the VCA.

If you look at his postings within other people's threads, he started a very personal attack against an individual about five weeks ago, then, no posts for over four weeks - did they ban him for thirty days.

And yes, at one time he told us you have to dyno the viper in 3rd gear because it is a 1:1 ratio. Then he must have posted twenty times trying to prove he was right. Also note, whenever, he is asked for credentials, the response is an attack that gets very personal. Why are we the "whinny bitches", always wrong and the one's that have to "ignore" him.

I do not mean to run this thread in a different direction, but, for me the hate (justifiable) in this thread has ruined it. I will be testing the combination of the insulated "Ghetto" box and the deflector plate today. I am also installing the air/oil separator. I will start a new thread and post the results next week.

If he ruins that thread, there will be no more posts from me - the moderators have to step up to the plate. I fight every day in the work place and do not intend to fight in a place where I try to relax.


It's not him it's us, we all just need to ignore him lol.

[ViperSmith]

I agree 100% with Jack.

Sorry, but this is a forum for user experiences and technical feedback.

Not for someone to pontificate how they think they are correct

If PeerBlock has a better solution - he can start his own thread and post about it there.

[PeerBlock]

We are and have been addressing pulled timing and power loss do to radiator wash directly hitting the IAT sensor housings causing a significant rise in IAT's.

You think it's pointless to drag race a Viper, so be it, but some members on here really enjoy it and this is a problem for owners that enjoy their car in that venue.

Great logic there...

This only matters when using the car to do something it was not designed to do as its primary use - drag "racing". Why doesn't jacky start another thread about the issues the viper faces when driven off road? I'm sure he's going to blame SRT for not giving the viper enough suspension travel or ground clearance...


Wow, there is so much wrong with that post from an engineering and technical standpoint that it hurts. We've seen you now several times argue things to no end, regardless of proof so I won't begin to correct you. You know what they say; never argue with an idiot because on-lookers can't tell who is who...

No there's not. It's simple approximation of why the viper "gets so hot"....but nobody is going to argue with you.


I second this. The overall concept isn't wrong...in fact it supports the argument that there is a significant amount of heat that is underhood and that this heat needs to be kept as far from the intake charge as possible. I'm not sure what he's arguing.

The point is that high performance cars generate high levels of heat, and this is not an issue exclusive to the Gen 5 or even vipers overall. The notion that this IAT thing is a "viper problem" that SRT overlooked when designing the car is false. It's a non-issue when the car is driven as it was designed - on a race track, not a drag strip.


You can't quote actual numbers of BTU's without consideration of how and where the heat is lost, peerblock. For example, a signficant amount of that wasted heat from combustion is lost/evacuated right out the exhaust. I'm not sure if you have read the post by Nineball regarding the significant loss of performance of his car at the track on a warmer (not hot) day with a loss of at least 6-7mph of trap speed. That equates to close to 100hp. That is unacceptable. These guys are trying to find a way around that. If you are OK with this phenomenon in your car because you don't drag race, why does it bother you so much that they are not?

Do you think the point of my post was to explore the minutia of where and how the heat generated by the viper escapes, or was it simply to illustrate a point that the Viper generates A LOT of heat, a lot of which will stay trapped in the engine bay. It doesn't matter if 50% of it goes out with the exhaust because that's still half a million BTU/hr that needs to be removed with a flow of cooler air.


All I have to say is 1:1 3rd gear and everyone should know where is credibility stands on any of these threads.

[mnc2886]

...

No there's not. It's simple approximation of why the viper "gets so hot"....but nobody is going to argue with you.
...

Yes, there is. You fabricated all of your technical input in this thread. No one said the engine doesn't get hot. Don't change the argument to make yourself feel better.

[PeerBlock]

Yes, there is. You fabricated all of your technical input in this thread. No one said the engine doesn't get hot. Don't change the argument to make yourself feel better.

Was I talking about the engine getting hot, or the QUANTITY of heat that it generates relative to other cars in general.

[whitebeard]

Peer:

After carefully deliberating it has been decided by moderators that some form of action is needed. We agreed the words and tone are both off topic and harsh for what we want on the forums. You are being granted a 7 days of cooling of the heels. We warned in prior posts to keep the topic on key and refrain from a personal attack. You still did not. This is a warning to others who responded in almost the same vein. VOA SHALL NOT allow for anyone to be used as a punching bag. Agree to disagree, but there is no need to belittle or get aggressive in tone or timber in what you post.

[ViperSmith]

whitebeard, is there any way to clean up this thread so we can get back to the real discussion?

[plumcrazy]

yes there is

[whitebeard]

I shall do Peer's thread. I am asking via PM and phone call that other do the same to their threads.

Edit. Cleaned.

[MtnBiker]

I applaud your effort to cleanse this thread Whitebeard. Thank you.

[I Bin Therbefor]

I bloged Ralph about the Gen V 2 vent vs 6 vent hood. He said that the difference in air flow was very little because the forward vents doing most of the work. Not sure about the Gen 4. I asked on this thread if anyone knows if the GT3 hood would fit the Gen V. No response so far. That hood would get the air out. However, in principle, we're talking about moving air. I believe that this thread focuses on the heat build (soak) when the car is at a stand still with the engine off?:o

[FLATOUT]

This thread is basically about hot radiator wash blowing directly on the IAT sensor housing. Think sitting in traffic, traffic lights, staging lanes, on the dyno even. Timing gets pulled robbing the car of HP until enough air moves through the system to cool the intake charge.

Not a massive problem on the road coarse but it definitely affects the car in other driving situations.




I bloged Ralph about the Gen V 2 vent vs 6 vent hood. He said that the difference in air flow was very little because the forward vents doing most of the work. Not sure about the Gen 4. I asked on this thread if anyone knows if the GT3 hood would fit the Gen V. No response so far. That hood would get the air out. However, in principle, we're talking about moving air. I believe that this thread focuses on the heat build (soak) when the car is at a stand still with the engine off?:o

[01sapphirebob]

I asked on this thread if anyone knows if the GT3 hood would fit the Gen V. No response so far. That hood would get the air out. However, in principle, we're talking about moving air.

It will not fit a street car. However...I would bet the farm that when the GEN V ACR comes out it WILL have a GTS-R style hood. :)

[Voice of Reason]

It will not fit a street car. However...I would bet the farm that when the GEN V ACR comes out it WILL have a GTS-R style hood. :)

Agreed. An ACR specific hood would be a fairly cost effective way to make that model unique. Combined with a bumper with fog lights like the GTS-R and an ACR would look killer from the front.

[mnc2886]

Jack,

Any intentions of a dyno with the new air box?

[Jack B]

I will dyno the car, but, it won't be till early spring. The dyno hopefully will only show that the PCM is no longer limiting hp. I plan on hitting the dragstip around the same time, that will be the acid test. I permanently fastened the air deflector plate and mounted the air box. I let it run for about five minutes and the IAT was lower than the car's ambient air sensor reading. I will let run for a longer time tomorrow and post the readings.

When I started this little project I was just hoping to keep the IAT under control in the staging lines at the dragstrip so that the PCM did not pull timing, however, I think the IAT is actually going to be lower during all operating conditions, therefore, more hp across curve. I won't have that data till spring time. I don't think early on anyone thought that the IAT temps were so high under all conditions. In the summer you probably have 225 degree air blasting the airbox, therefore, the high IAT.



Jack,

Any intentions of a dyno with the new air box?

[Revolution]

Could someone please post a pic with the vents out of the hood please :)

[Jack B]

The 2013 vents pop right out with no effort.


Could someone please post a pic with the vents out of the hood please :)

[KRATEDISEASE]

Let's do some math, with numbers

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!.

I suspect that your math only applies in a static state of heat comparing to a BBQ grill. Heat is exhausted. The cylinders are continually moving the BTUs out the engine block. If you drain the radiator and run the engine and ignite/burn gas inside the cylinders without the cylinders moving in the worst case senerio of static heat then according to you ,at one million BTUs according to your calculations,the block would simply bypass the liquid state ( melt) and turn gaseous and "evaporate" . I believe that your calculations are incorrect.

[Viper Girl]

Krated, this thread has settled down... I want to remind everyone to refrain from antagonistic and intentional smack.

[KRATEDISEASE]

Krated, this thread has settled down... I want to remind everyone to refrain from antagonistic and intentional smack.


OK, adjusted my reply to better reflect the information.

[Viper Girl]

Thank You :dude3:

[Jack B]

BTW, I have everything buttoned up and ready to go. The weather has been terrible, however, I was able to take a twenty minute ride in the 20-40 mph range. The ambient versus IAT temps used to be anywhere from a 30 to 40 degree (at low speeds) differential, now they are close to equal temps. This is not a very good test, however, that will come as soon as the weather gets warmer.

Honestly, I never expected such a dramatic difference. When I started this I was just trying to fix the IAT/PCM issue in the staging line at the dragstrip, but, I think we are actually going to get an overall reduction in IAT and that is hp, this may be the cheapest $/hp mod in viper history.

The ignore feature is very nice how is our little jail bird doing.



Thank You :dude3:

[KRATEDISEASE]

I actually went to visit Peerbee at detention. He was very remorseful and was even tearful/crying a bit. He said he will be paroled soon.

[Jack B]

do you believe he can be saved or will the incarceration put him on the streets


I actually went to visit Peerbee at detention. He was very remorseful and was even tearful/crying a bit. He said he will be paroled soon.

[Viper Girl]

Actually his cooling off period has ended.

[Nine Ball]

After having made 27 passes at the last track rental, none of which showed a hint of reduced power, I believe the IAT is only a minor part of the problem. The main difference between this last visit, and the previous visits, is that I never did any standing brake burnouts this time. Someone had mentioned in those other threads about some Gen 4's going into limp mode if the accelerator and brakes were both applied at the same time. That could have been the problem all along, as I did some nice smokey burnouts the first two visits.

Two solutions to avoid this, if it is the real issue. Install a toggle switch somewhere that would disable the brake light / pedal switch. Or, install a line-lock, since it won't trigger the brake light switch once you are off the pedal. Or for a temporary fix at the track, perhaps disconnect the brake pedal switch. That could affect ABS braking though.

Just FYI, for those planning to attend the track. I'd not try a burnout until you've at least made a few good passes. It could possibly put you into reduced power for the rest of the evening.

[KRATEDISEASE]

do you believe he can be saved or will the incarceration put him on the streets
I just ran into him on the corner of Main street and Vine avenue.

He is already on the streets lecturing/arguing with homeless people on why thinsulate is better than sheepskin jackets when sleeping outside on the sidewalk during the winter.

He was standing on a old milk crate while he was lecturing. ( apparently to make himself look taller/more important? )

[KRATEDISEASE]

I checked Peerbee's calculations and he is incorrectly using BTU per HOUR produced by one horse power. Per each SECOND it would be around .7 BTU. NOT the 2544 BTU's number he used.

[Revolution]

After having made 27 passes at the last track rental, none of which showed a hint of reduced power, I believe the IAT is only a minor part of the problem. The main difference between this last visit, and the previous visits, is that I never did any standing brake burnouts this time. Someone had mentioned in those other threads about some Gen 4's going into limp mode if the accelerator and brakes were both applied at the same time. That could have been the problem all along, as I did some nice smokey burnouts the first two visits.

Two solutions to avoid this, if it is the real issue. Install a toggle switch somewhere that would disable the brake light / pedal switch. Or, install a line-lock, since it won't trigger the brake light switch once you are off the pedal. Or for a temporary fix at the track, perhaps disconnect the brake pedal switch. That could affect ABS braking though.

Just FYI, for those planning to attend the track. I'd not try a burnout until you've at least made a few good passes. It could possibly put you into reduced power for the rest of the evening.

I'm very interested if this indeed a problem you would think SRT could tell us if there is a code that would trigger a reduced power mode and under what circumstances!

[Jack B]

SRT admitted the problem to Nineball. The comment was vague, however it related to high IATs. That would directly affect dynoing and the dragstrip. I just installed a data logger and will have some answers in the spring.



I'm very interested if this indeed a problem you would think SRT could tell us if there is a code that would trigger a reduced power mode and under what circumstances!

[Revolution]

SRT admitted the problem to Nineball. The comment was vague, however it related to high IATs. That would directly affect dynoing and the dragstrip. I just installed a data logger and will have some answers in the spring.

Sorry I was referring to the brake and accelerater being pressed at the same time as when doing a burn out!

[Nine Ball]

Dyno numbers can also flatline due to ABS issues, which might also be related to the front wheel speed sensors not moving, but rears moving on the dyno. Similar motion as burning out...

[ACRucrazy]

Seems like SRT needs an burnout/dyno mode programmed into the PCM :p

[Nine Ball]

Seems like SRT needs an burnout/dyno mode programmed into the PCM :p

I would trade that for the near worthless Launch Mode. They could even use the same button. :)

[Revolution]

Dyno numbers can also flatline due to ABS issues, which might also be related to the front wheel speed sensors not moving, but rears moving on the dyno. Similar motion as burning out...

So is this only a Gen 5 issue with traction control or does it affect the Gen 4 cars also?

[Nine Ball]

So is this only a Gen 5 issue with traction control or does it affect the Gen 4 cars also?

A few with Gen 4's were the first to mention the burnout limp mode stuff. Using the brake and accelerator at the same time caused it. Trips an ABS brake system code, puts car in reduced power. I took that advice last time at the track, and did zero burnouts with the brake pedal. Just peeled out, and then made my run.

[Revolution]

I think I will try this!

[Viper.954]

Edit.

[QUOTE=PeerBlock;19706]You gotta admit that it's pretty funny how the moment anyone challenges the idea that the "IAT in the viper is broken and it's up to Jacky B to fix it", the thread degenerates into a trollfest (entirely initiated and perpetuated by Jacky B and his lovers).



Now tell me, are any of you REALLY going to cover your $100K+ viper with ghetto foil wrap to solve a non-existent problem? REALLY? Are any of you actually considering this "mod"? .

Yes, I plan to do it. This is great info. Cool air is free. I don't understand all the haters.

[Jack B]

Times have changed, we know a lot more now:

1. I always thought the G5 had a problem when dynoing, however, recently Torrie and Mark J did over 25 pulls and I believe all pulls had great success.

2. Several posters have come in late on this thread, straight-ahead racing is with ESC off.

3. At an IAT of 122 deg F, the pcm is pulling over 10 deg of timing, that could be part of the dyno issue. That is one reason HPT is such a great tool

[ViperGeorge]

An SRT engineer tells me that he does not believe the IAT problem is real. He believes that once you go to WOT the temps drop very quickly. Jack do you have any hard data that shows otherwise? If you do I would be happy to send it to SRT for analysis.

[Jack B]

He is partially correct, it does cool down, however, it dramatically affects dragstrip performance. I have multiple logs that show the problem. Early-on - Tony (NineBall) had the same issue at the strip and that was well documented. If you go over 95 Deg F with the IAT, don't drag race, a massive amount of timing is pulled. The problem at the dragstrip is the staging line, if it is summer time you cannot get to the tree at under 95 Deg F. My insulated box helped that condition and it shaved a few degrees off of the steady-state temps.

The simple answer is HPT or the Arrow PCM. The problem is not only that the IAT temps affect the timing, but, there are multiple conditions (other PIDS) that also pull timing. I have dragstrip logs where the timing never gets above 15 degrees BTDC after 4000 rpms.

He is correct on a road course, the IAT temp will come down, but, on the dyno and at the strip, the IAT affects power.



An SRT engineer tells me that he does not believe the IAT problem is real. He believes that once you go to WOT the temps drop very quickly. Jack do you have any hard data that shows otherwise? If you do I would be happy to send it to SRT for analysis.