Crash's twin turbo Gen V on Hp tuners

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

After speaking with William on and off the last few months he finally pulled the trigger after Viper nationals. What makes his set up slightly different is it is on HP tuners. All of our kits come with our Motec package, Tiltons, motor mounts etc, etc. We talked about trying to make a more affordable package and he was willing to make his car the test mule. What we came up with is our billet collector, Xona Rotor turbo kit with drop in pumps and injectors. Stock clutch, stock fuel lines and stock mounts. William dropped the car off after Viper Nationals and we got on it the week after. His build was completed in 3 weeks (two of them not being on the schedule we try to follow as close as possible) and last night we got the car on the dyno. I am not going to post any number yet (I know whats the point?) but we got pretty far last night and will be trying to wrap some of it up today. I will give my opinions once the car is finished on the whole set up and stock PCM vs stand alone.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/mikewho2k4/will%20mills%20in%20dyno_zpsmbb8urov.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/mikewho2k4/media/will%20mills%20in%20dyno_zpsmbb8urov.jpg.html)

[7TH_SIGN]

Antonio I can tell you a lot of us are very thankful and excited for this build. Not everyone can afford $50-$100k TT builds so it's nice having this option for those of us wanting to go TT. Looking forward to how it does at TX2K.

[Tiago]

cool!

[rlhay2]

Go TT for one year and then install Motec the next year!!

[FLATOUT]

Awesome seeing what William is doing with my old TA. Very cool guys looking forward to how this turns out and I am very happy for William!!!

Andy

[NoMorZR1]

Very interesting ! Any cooling system upgrades planned ?

[1.8t]

Glad to see Calvo using HP Tuners. I am anxious to hear your feedback on the stock ECU with twins.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Final pump and race numbers. 8lbs on pump 11-12 lbs on race in a 90 degree room.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/mikewho2k4/will%20dyno_zpsnillhs1x.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/mikewho2k4/media/will%20dyno_zpsnillhs1x.jpg.html)

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

I will say this, there is still a long road a head of us. Car act's fine on the dyno but has some issues on the street. Will mentioned some of the issues he was having when the car was stock and we think it MIGHT be related to that but we are not sure. We are going to try a few things right now but calling it a wrap till after tx2k. Please keep in mind we only started on this journey last night and there looks like hope in the HPT program but my first impressions is nothing like my Motec car.

[1.8t]

There are those of us that certainly appreciate you guys taking the "path less traveled". Hopefully you are able to work the bugs out and HPTuners can be a viable option for low boost cars.

[SinasViperTA]

Oh man how exciting! Will be following this thread closely :dancingman:

[7TH_SIGN]

I just have two questions and please forgive me its not my intention to take anything away from this awesome achievement for our GEN Vs but I do plan on going TT one day.

1. When do you feel we will get a price for this package?

2. If I'm not mistaken (correct me if I am wrong please) a GEN II 96-99 forged internals TT setup on stock motor saw nearly if not the same amount of power. What was holding the car back from making 1000whp on pump?

[Space Truckin]

There are those of us that certainly appreciate you guys taking the "path less traveled". Hopefully you are able to work the bugs out and HPTuners can be a viable option for low boost cars.

^^^this^^^ Very NICE numbers :dude3:

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

I just have two questions and please forgive me its not my intention to take anything away from this awesome achievement for our GEN Vs but I do plan on going TT one day.

1. When do you feel we will get a price for this package?

2. If I'm not mistaken (correct me if I am wrong please) a GEN II 96-99 forged internals TT setup on stock motor saw nearly if not the same amount of power. What was holding the car back from making 1000whp on pump?

We are still testing but thinking if it does work and we release it somewhere in the range of 30-32k. A giant chunk of the 54k big boy package is the turbo kit. The amount of labor hours in building and installing it is somewhere in the realm of 150 hours, then add turbos, WG, billet collectors, intercooler, BOV's and materials. This package, if it does work will use our same turbo kit, just a Spec or Mcloed clutch, with drop in injectors and pumps. On to the question about why did we stop at that power level? Simple answer is we are at the limit of the stock fuel line (returnless system) and just feel this was a good safe stopping point. We don't have all safety features and are very limited in what HP can show us so that's why we stopped!

[7TH_SIGN]

Antonio thanks a lot for the explanation ^^^

Really hope you decide to produce this kit and everything goes well with the R&D!! Thanks.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Antonio thanks a lot for the explanation ^^^

Really hope you decide to produce this kit and everything goes well with the R&D!! Thanks.

The kit is identical to our 1200 kit. Same turbos, manifolds, mittens exhaust. Just no motec, full fuel system, mounts, heat shield, Tilton Clutch and trans work. It allows you to jump into the kit and keep adding on. I do suggest though to do mounts at the same time since they are very easy to get to.

[NoMorZR1]

What trans work comes with the "full kit ?"

[Y'orange_UAE]

Only the fifth gear ratio as the stock ratio is too long. Antonio correct me if i'm wrong.


What trans work comes with the "full kit ?"

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Only the fifth gear ratio as the stock ratio is too long. Antonio correct me if i'm wrong.

Upgraded blocker ring/synros and shorter ratio gear.

[Sticky]

So were the issues on HP Tuners solved?

[NT-ACR]

So were the issues on HP Tuners solved?

A&C Performance seems to have figured out HP Tuners.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14360-A-amp-C-Performance-Gen-V-H-C-with-Stock-bottom-end-breaking-the-700whp-barrier!?p=227736#post227736

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

So were the issues on HP Tuners solved?

Sadly the car is no longer with us. Was wrecked about 2 weeks after being finished.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

A&C Performance seems to have figured out HP Tuners.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14360-A-amp-C-Performance-Gen-V-H-C-with-Stock-bottom-end-breaking-the-700whp-barrier!?p=227736#post227736

For heads and cam correct. Not boost. Also James is the one tuning both the HP stuff for Todd and I. And to be honest after driving tt vipers without no boost by gear, traction control or a good ecu, I would highly suggest against it.

[NT-ACR]

For heads and cam correct. Not boost. Also James is the one tuning both the HP stuff for Todd and I. And to be honest after driving tt vipers without no boost by gear, traction control or a good ecu, I would highly suggest against it.

I understand. Thanks for clarifying.

[TrackAire]

For heads and cam correct. Not boost. Also James is the one tuning both the HP stuff for Todd and I. And to be honest after driving tt vipers without no boost by gear, traction control or a good ecu, I would highly suggest against it.

Can you clarify, is Todd at A&C Performance doing his own tuning on the head and cam cars he posted or is it being farmed out to this guy James? Only interested in head and cam packages, not concerned with boosted installs.

[rlhay2]

Thus far, James Karger is the only person I am aware of whom has managed to get the OEM ECU to function with an aftermarket camshaft or with a boosted motor.

[Junkie]

Can you clarify, is Todd at A&C Performance doing his own tuning on the head and cam cars he posted or is it being farmed out to this guy James? Only interested in head and cam packages, not concerned with boosted installs.

James Karger does all the tuning on Heads/Cam cars for Todd. Very good team of guys that have worked out the combo

[Evan@D3PE]

Thus far, James Karger is the only person I am aware of whom has managed to get the OEM ECU to function with an aftermarket camshaft or with a boosted motor.

We've got multiple GenV's with our blower kit on stock ecu

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

We've got multiple GenV's with our blower kit on stock ecu

cool story....

[NT-ACR]

cool story....

:smilielol::fpopcorn::jerry:

[Sticky]

Sadly the car is no longer with us. Was wrecked about 2 weeks after being finished.

Thanks but this doesn't answer the question if the stock ecu issues with boost on HP Tuners were figured out.

We know heads and cam works as does a centrifugal blower but turbos are quite different.

So you do offer stock ECU turbo packages?

[rlhay2]

We've got multiple GenV's with our blower kit on stock ecu

And still no ETs posted using a manual transmission. Perhaps that is telling in the omission...


Thanks but this doesn't answer the question if the stock ecu issues with boost on HP Tuners were figured out.

James Karger is not difficult to reach. Contact him, and ask your questions.

[351carlo]

I'd imagine it's difficult to run a car of that power level with a returnless system. Coming from other platforms that wreaked havoc at the higher power levels - a return style fuel system is much more forgiving.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Thanks but this doesn't answer the question if the stock ecu issues with boost on HP Tuners were figured out.

We know heads and cam works as does a centrifugal blower but turbos are quite different.

So you do offer stock ECU turbo packages?

That was sort of my answer, we had 2 days with it from the original post, customer took it to tx2k then was supposed to bring it back after....It never made it and we haven't done another. To be honest I don't think we will try either. Not safe and to many variables. 15k motec or 25k blown engine....or even worse car in a wall.

[Sticky]

James Karger is not difficult to reach. Contact him, and ask your questions.

Or I could just use the forum as I just did?

- - - Updated - - -


That was sort of my answer, we had 2 days with it from the original post, customer took it to tx2k then was supposed to bring it back after....It never made it and we haven't done another. To be honest I don't think we will try either. Not safe and to many variables. 15k motec or 25k blown engine....or even worse car in a wall.

Thanks. It seems you feel the car went into a wall due mainly due to the stock ECU tune.

[Junkie]

Or I could just use the forum as I just did?

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks. It seems you feel the car went into a wall due mainly due to the stock ECU tune.

lol, I don't even know how to take this.

So do all people blame accidents on computers? James doesn't get online much, he is incredibly busy.

[Sticky]

So do all people blame accidents on computers? James doesn't get online much, he is incredibly busy.

I have no idea I'm just interpreting from Calvo he seems he think that if the car had a Motec it would have more safety features thereby possibly preventing an accident. I don't necessarily believe that but I think that's what he was saying?

[7TH_SIGN]

lol, I don't even know how to take this.

So do all people blame accidents on computers? James doesn't get online much, he is incredibly busy.

I really hope that's not where we are going with this lol. I talked to James, glad he was okay!

It seems there is always some kind of drama when boosting Vipers unless it's an all out build with an unlimited budget but maybe I'm wrong. Well at least I hope I'm wrong.

[rlhay2]

Or I could just use the forum as I just did?

If you are content with the responses you have received, then it was successful.
Technically, your original question is still unanswered.


I have no idea I'm just interpreting from Calvo he seems he think that if the car had a Motec it would have more safety features thereby possibly preventing an accident.

Everything following this statement is purely speculative and is the opinion of one lone keyboard hack:

Calvo has designed and tested a MONSTER of a TT package for the Gen V Viper. It's a 1200+ rwhp capable package. If you have driven a moderately sized turbo car, you are familiar with the somewhat non linear boost curve. Aftermarket ECUs like the Motec can help mitigate "that hit" when the turbo spools.

The OEM ECU was not designed with FI operating parameters. It can be tweaked to do a decent job and with smaller turbos ( what fun is that?) it would probably be a fun, slightly easier to drive and enjoyable package. As it stands with Calvo's package the OEM ECU appears to be overwhelmed with trying to control the power it produces.


It seems there is always some kind of drama when boosting Vipers unless it's an all out build with an unlimited budget but maybe I'm wrong. Well at least I hope I'm wrong.

Regrettably, you are not wrong. You need only see the deleted posts in this thread to reveal that modified Vipers can be a sensitive subject.

[Jack B]

This thread is approaching the twilight zone. Does anyone think a 1200hp, 3000 lb/rwd car can be easily controlled.

Most of those1200-1500 G2 TT cars had a motec or aem with traction control

[Junkie]

I have no idea I'm just interpreting from Calvo he seems he think that if the car had a Motec it would have more safety features thereby possibly preventing an accident. I don't necessarily believe that but I think that's what he was saying?

Motec traction control will make everything safer, including a bone stock GTS.

[7TH_SIGN]

The Supra on full tilt made just under 1400whp. I ran it around 1100whp on the streets. I had a AEM V1 from the stone age. No traction control or boost by gear. Never had any issues. I did have a 55 side wall tire in the rear. I'd feel comfortable driving a Viper with the same power level on the streets granted it wasn't on the stock rear wheels and tires. Damn I wish I could TT this thing.

[Junkie]

I think at sub 1200whp traction control isn't a giant factor if you run 345/35/18 MT's, above that its just a safety cushion if you know what I mean? I'm with you though, I've been street racing a 1500+whp supra without traction control for 5+ years. I do use boost by gear and think something like that is a must for big power.

I'm just saying for the average guy that has never had a fast car, TC is going to make everything safer. Look at all the guys that wreck stock Vipers?! A car that is ridiculously easy to drive.

[TwinVipers]

The Supra on full tilt made just under 1400whp. I ran it around 1100whp on the streets. I had a AEM V1 from the stone age. No traction control or boost by gear. Never had any issues. I did have a 55 side wall tire in the rear. I'd feel comfortable driving a Viper with the same power level on the streets granted it wasn't on the stock rear wheels and tires. Damn I wish I could TT this thing.

You my friend are comparing apples and oranges. Power and tq bands are completely different from a supra to a Viper! The viper is way more violent at the hit because of the tq!

[Junkie]

You my friend are comparing apples and oranges. Power and tq bands are completely different from a supra to a Viper! The viper is way more violent at the hit because of the tq!

having owned both making well over 900whp, the Viper was MUCH easier to make hook. Supra is hard to hook because it goes from no power to a bunch of power in a split second. Viper pulls into power with the tires already loaded.

My 1070whp GTS dead hooked on 18's and was still usable on 20's. My 1100whp Supra would annihilate the tires with anything other than 15" wheels and a big MT radial.

[TwinVipers]

having owned both making well over 900whp, the Viper was MUCH easier to make hook. Supra is hard to hook because it goes from no power to a bunch of power in a split second. Viper pulls into power with the tires already loaded.

My 1070whp GTS dead hooked on 18's and was still usable on 20's. My 1100whp Supra would annihilate the tires with anything other than 15" wheels and a big MT radial.

My viper thinks it's a supra then! More than doubles its hp from 4K rpm to 5k rpm lol

[Junkie]

My viper thinks it's a supra then! More than doubles its hp from 4K rpm to 5k rpm lol

Which is triple the NA power we are working with. My car goes from sub 300whp to 1700+whp in 1000rpms...

[Sticky]

Everything following this statement is purely speculative and is the opinion of one lone keyboard hack:

Calvo has designed and tested a MONSTER of a TT package for the Gen V Viper. It's a 1200+ rwhp capable package. If you have driven a moderately sized turbo car, you are familiar with the somewhat non linear boost curve. Aftermarket ECUs like the Motec can help mitigate "that hit" when the turbo spools.

I've seen Calvo's tuner dismiss stock ECU tuning time and time again. I also read Calvo imply the Motec safety features would have prevented this accident.

You sound pretty stressed. I'm content to use the forum for answers to my questions. Maybe you should pick up a phone and call someone to give you a hug?

Just because an OEM ECU was not designed for forced induction doesn't mean it won't work. I could show you 1032480138410803810358105803018 aftermarket examples along with D3PE's on the Gen V but let's not make you any angrier. #hack

[Sticky]

Which is triple the NA power we are working with. My car goes from sub 300whp to 1700+whp in 1000rpms...

Better get a Motec before you put it into a wall, right?

[7TH_SIGN]

I think at sub 1200whp traction control isn't a giant factor if you run 345/35/18 MT's, above that its just a safety cushion if you know what I mean? I'm with you though, I've been street racing a 1500+whp supra without traction control for 5+ years. I do use boost by gear and think something like that is a must for big power.

I'm just saying for the average guy that has never had a fast car, TC is going to make everything safer. Look at all the guys that wreck stock Vipers?! A car that is ridiculously easy to drive.


Which is triple the NA power we are working with. My car goes from sub 300whp to 1700+whp in 1000rpms...

Junkie I agree with you 100%. If I hadn't sold it I would have definitely switched to an EMS with boost by gear and traction control. Your so right about people wrecking even stock Vipers. I never could understand why so many people crash stock Vipers?!?! The car is so easy to drive. Lack of experience maybe?


You my friend are comparing apples and oranges. Power and tq bands are completely different from a supra to a Viper! The viper is way more violent at the hit because of the tq!

Your correct but though different cars, as Junkie stated (he has owned both) the Supra when running large frame turbos (80mm+) hits extremely hard and fast! Actually the most violent car I've personally every owned/driven. Not to mention the Viper can house much more rubber for the rear tires unlike the Supra. My 3.4l stroker made great torque numbers as well. The car is dead, dead, dead, 6,500rpms hold on tight for dear life to 9,000rpms!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIzW6-QsNTw

[Junkie]

Better get a Motec before you put it into a wall, right?

It's had a Motec since 07...

What is the point you are trying to make? Saying Motec will make a TT Viper safer? That is true.

[rlhay2]

What is the point you are trying to make? Saying Motec will make a TT Viper safer? That is true.

Just another uninformed keyboard warrior...in a few months, he'll likely move on to something else.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

It's had a Motec since 07...

What is the point you are trying to make? Saying Motec will make a TT Viper safer? That is true.

That guy is wearing me out. He doesn't want to be informed, just wants to argue.

[Junkie]

Just another uninformed keyboard warrior...in a few months, he'll likely move on to something else.


That guy is wearing me out. He doesn't want to be informed, just wants to argue.

positive rep. Thats exactly how it reads to me.

EDIT: I must spread some rep before giving anymore to rlhay2

[aNinjaneer]

I've seen Calvo's tuner dismiss stock ECU tuning time and time again. I also read Calvo imply the Motec safety features would have prevented this accident.

You sound pretty stressed. I'm content to use the forum for answers to my questions. Maybe you should pick up a phone and call someone to give you a hug?

Just because an OEM ECU was not designed for forced induction doesn't mean it won't work. I could show you 1032480138410803810358105803018 aftermarket examples along with D3PE's on the Gen V but let's not make you any angrier. #hack

Not dismiss its ability to RUN the motor... Not at all. But definitely to do the "same" thing that a quality EMS can do. That is indisputable. A stock PCM is unable to do boost by gear, traction control, sophisticated knock control, a launch control that actually works, closed-loop fueling, closed-loop boost control, etc. Never once have I said you can't get a motor to RUN on stock PCM. You're just putting words in everyone else's mouths.

[7TH_SIGN]

aNinaneer, I just saw the dyno pull you all did at JMS. Unbelievable how good it sounded. It even spun with the extra people in the trunk? Excellent work!

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

aNinaneer, I just saw the dyno pull you all did at JMS. Unbelievable how good it sounded. It even spun with the extra people in the trunk? Excellent work!

That was me driving....I know its hard to confuse two pasty white kits LOL

[aNinjaneer]

aNinaneer, I just saw the dyno pull you all did at JMS. Unbelievable how good it sounded. It even spun with the extra people in the trunk? Excellent work!

Yep, still spun, even with track bite on the tires and all those people in the trunk lol.


That was me driving....I know its hard two confuse to pasty white kits LOL

I don't think he was saying I was driving lol. Just saw my post.

[7TH_SIGN]

Yep, still spun, even with track bite on the tires and all those people in the trunk lol.



I don't think he was saying I was driving lol. Just saw my post.


That was me driving....I know its hard to confuse two pasty white kits LOL

Haha Yeah I saw Antonio, Love the thumbs up and 100% throttle, straight to business! Car is a beast and looking forward to seeing you guys run it! That transmission seems to be doing very well! Huge power numbers!

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Haha Yeah I saw Antonio, Love the thumbs up and 100% throttle, straight to business! Car is a beast and looking forward to seeing you guys run it! That transmission seems to be doing very well! Huge power numbers!

I honestly couldn't be happier with the car. Just wish I could find a copper spark plug solution!

[38D]

Your so right about people wrecking even stock Vipers. I never could understand why so many people crash stock Vipers?!?! The car is so easy to drive. Lack of experience maybe?

Every car is easy to drive when the steering wheel is straight. And its not raining. And there isn't another car trying to squeeze you off the apex. And there is no pressure.

[Sticky]

That guy is wearing me out. He doesn't want to be informed, just wants to argue.

I'm pretty sure I asked for an update on a stock ECU turbo build? I'm more interested in learning about stock tuned forced induction results than being told I need a Motec or the car will end up in a wall.

[Sticky]

Not dismiss its ability to RUN the motor... Not at all. But definitely to do the "same" thing that a quality EMS can do. That is indisputable. A stock PCM is unable to do boost by gear, traction control, sophisticated knock control, a launch control that actually works, closed-loop fueling, closed-loop boost control, etc. Never once have I said you can't get a motor to RUN on stock PCM. You're just putting words in everyone else's mouths.

Words in your mouth? This thread, Page 2: http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/12413-The-benefits-of-an-EMS

Your words:


As for arguing that my post has anything to do with selling MoTeCs, that is absolutely incorrect. I would make more money in less time with a stock reflash, I just simply am not impressed with the stock reflash options right now. Even with bringing in functionality similar to what they've developed for other platforms, such as the vettes, I wouldn't be happy with my options. For some people, it's perfectly fine to sacrifice all of the added features for the cost, but if you're going to be racing often, EMSs just give you so much more control over everything. I'm a firm believer in doing things right, not doing them cheap/easy. Not that there's anything wrong with being content with HPT, it's just not ideal. I've certainly done plenty of cars in stock ECU, but the currently solution for the Gen Vs is not acceptable, in my opinion.

You go on in that thread to dismiss the stock ECU and push a Motec on everyone. If you like I can post more quotes but I don't think it's necessary. You also stated a Motec is necessary for a centrifugal supercharger which D3PE proved is clearly not true.

The point being nobody is going to say a Motec isn't great or a better option. It sure is. It also is adding $20k to these builds. Maybe instead of telling everyone the stock ECU is unacceptable we could discuss stock ECU tuning, adjustments, and improvements?

Maybe more turbo sales would happen if people could move from the stock ECU to a Motec instead of having to do $50k+ at once? Is it so wrong to explore all options at all price points instead of dismissing them?

[TwinVipers]

Junkie I agree with you 100%. If I hadn't sold it I would have definitely switched to an EMS with boost by gear and traction control. Your so right about people wrecking even stock Vipers. I never could understand why so many people crash stock Vipers?!?! The car is so easy to drive. Lack of experience maybe?



Your correct but though different cars, as Junkie stated (he has owned both) the Supra when running large frame turbos (80mm+) hits extremely hard and fast! Actually the most violent car I've personally every owned/driven. Not to mention the Viper can house much more rubber for the rear tires unlike the Supra. My 3.4l stroker made great torque numbers as well. The car is dead, dead, dead, 6,500rpms hold on tight for dear life to 9,000rpms!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIzW6-QsNTw

Damn that car is an animal! Was that yours?

[7TH_SIGN]

Every car is easy to drive when the steering wheel is straight. And its not raining. And there isn't another car trying to squeeze you off the apex. And there is no pressure.

Not going to get in to an argument on drag vs track racing but I and many others here who have actually piloted a 1000+whp 6-speed manual transmission car down a drag strip respectfully beg to differ on your assumption, let alone the streets.


Damn that car is an animal! Was that yours?

Yes sir. It was. Sold it last summer.

[Jdmuscle]

All of these Supra references around here... Generally people don't realize what that little 183ci can do with a big turbo especially with a V160 behind the 2J.

[aNinjaneer]

Words in your mouth? This thread, Page 2: http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/12413-The-benefits-of-an-EMS

Your words:



You go on in that thread to dismiss the stock ECU and push a Motec on everyone. If you like I can post more quotes but I don't think it's necessary. You also stated a Motec is necessary for a centrifugal supercharger which D3PE proved is clearly not true.

The point being nobody is going to say a Motec isn't great or a better option. It sure is. It also is adding $20k to these builds. Maybe instead of telling everyone the stock ECU is unacceptable we could discuss stock ECU tuning, adjustments, and improvements?

Maybe more turbo sales would happen if people could move from the stock ECU to a Motec instead of having to do $50k+ at once? Is it so wrong to explore all options at all price points instead of dismissing them?

I'm flattered you spent the time to go and look up my quotes, but are you reading the same thing I am? In what you quoted, I pretty explicitly stated that you can run the car on HPT, but because of a lack of a number of features, it's not what we wanted to build. Trust me, it's the first thing we tried, and just weren't satisfied with it. Not only does it lack features, but depending on what/how you changed some of the tables, the car went into limp mode. You had to spend hours on the dyno just to figure out what the ECU liked and what it did not.

On William's car, James decided to give it another go. He got the car to run with the turbos, but it just did not drive the way it should, due to the things he had to do to trick the PCM into allowing boost. To the best of my knowledge, that is the only turbo Gen V to have ever run on the stock PCM. James arguably has more HPT experience with Gen Vs than anyone else, and even he was not happy with the initial results. He never got the car back to finish, and we've not really been interested in trying again.

We've developed a system that works, and customers are extremely satisfied with it. There's really no incentive for us to spend considerable time with a company that is unwilling to work with us on a product that is half developed.

I'm not trying to push MoTeC on anyone, as I don't make any money on selling the hardware, nor can I sell it, and my firmware is only available to Calvo Motorsports. I simply posted a thread about all of the things you gain with an EMS over the factory PCM. We're really happy with all of the improvements we've made with each car, and we're simply sharing our advancements. Maybe one day when HPT fully unlocks the entire PCM, we can try again and work around the other limiting factors.

[Sticky]

I'm flattered you spent the time to go and look up my quotes, but are you reading the same thing I am? In what you quoted, I pretty explicitly stated that you can run the car on HPT, but because of a lack of a number of features, it's not what we wanted to build. Trust me, it's the first thing we tried, and just weren't satisfied with it. Not only does it lack features, but depending on what/how you changed some of the tables, the car went into limp mode. You had to spend hours on the dyno just to figure out what the ECU liked and what it did not.

On William's car, James decided to give it another go. He got the car to run with the turbos, but it just did not drive the way it should, due to the things he had to do to trick the PCM into allowing boost. To the best of my knowledge, that is the only turbo Gen V to have ever run on the stock PCM. James arguably has more HPT experience with Gen Vs than anyone else, and even he was not happy with the initial results. He never got the car back to finish, and we've not really been interested in trying again.

We've developed a system that works, and customers are extremely satisfied with it. There's really no incentive for us to spend considerable time with a company that is unwilling to work with us on a product that is half developed.

I'm not trying to push MoTeC on anyone, as I don't make any money on selling the hardware, nor can I sell it, and my firmware is only available to Calvo Motorsports. I simply posted a thread about all of the things you gain with an EMS over the factory PCM. We're really happy with all of the improvements we've made with each car, and we're simply sharing our advancements. Maybe one day when HPT fully unlocks the entire PCM, we can try again and work around the other limiting factors.

You're flattered I used a forum's quote feature? You must be easily impressed.

Are you reading what I'm writing? That HP Tuners certainly can evolve and has evolved and so with it can stock ECU tuning. Early on people said an aftermarket cam was impossible with HP Tuners. Well, guess what? It's possible without the Arrow module despite some people pushing that option hard. A centrifugal blower is possible as well. A turbo setup was done by Calvo on the stock ECU, right? So clearly things can evolve and be done differently.

Simply saying, 'Motec OMG MOTEC MOTEC MOTEC MOTEC' to everything doesn't help the platform advance or help advance stock ECU tuning. Everyone gets it. The Motec is extremely capable. Cool beans, it's awesome. Discussing stock ECU tuning is fine too. Maybe you'll eventually be satisfied with it if people keep pushing forward with development? Discounting as a whole as you did (your words I quoted) doesn't help.

Do whatever makes you happy and whatever your customers want. People can explore other options as well. Tuning will evolve.

[Junkie]

Not going to get in to an argument on drag vs track racing but I and many others here who have actually piloted a 1000+whp 6-speed manual transmission car down a drag strip respectfully beg to differ on your assumption, let alone the streets.

Yes sir. It was. Sold it last summer.


Every car is easy to drive when the steering wheel is straight. And its not raining. And there isn't another car trying to squeeze you off the apex. And there is no pressure.

7th sign nailed it. I've road raced and driven 8 second manual trans street cars, being good at either isn't easy….



As far as the stock ECU tuning goes, maybe Sticky should just send him car somewhere else? I would assume you have a Viper and you're wanting to send it somewhere for twins? Antonio doesn't seem to have any interest in stock ECU stuff anymore, so thats the end of it. Why debate back and forth on something the vendor has no intentions of doing?

[Sticky]

As far as the stock ECU tuning goes, maybe Sticky should just send him car somewhere else? I would assume you have a Viper and you're wanting to send it somewhere for twins? Antonio doesn't seem to have any interest in stock ECU stuff anymore, so thats the end of it. Why debate back and forth on something the vendor has no intentions of doing?

I'm not trying to convince Calvo to do stock ECU tuning I'm trying to learn more about stock ECU tuning on the Gen V with turbos. This is a thread about a stock ECU tuned turbo Viper, right? If there are others, point me in their direction.

[v10tt]

Torrie from Unleashed Tuning has his TT running perfect on HPT, on 9 lbs. It took him a while to sort it out, but he got it on the $ according to him.
We've developed a Twin Turbo System that utilizes the OEM ECU. Our system has dyno'd 1002whp and 938wtq on 93 octane gas and stock engine.
http://stage6motorsports.com/store/images/web_pic.jpg

[aNinjaneer]

Torrie from Unleashed Tuning has his TT running perfect on HPT, on 9 lbs. It took him a while to sort it out, but he got it on the $ according to him.
We've developed a Twin Turbo System that utilizes the OEM ECU. Our system has dyno'd 1002whp and 938wtq on 93 octane gas and stock engine.
http://stage6motorsports.com/store/images/web_pic.jpg

I remember seeing an initial dyno video then never saw anything about that car again. Has it ever run at any sort of event? I've known Dwight for a long time, and was talking to him when the car was being built, just kinda forgot about it since I haven't heard anything about it.

[Jack B]

That was well put, I do not know why those facts are so hard to understand.

It is obvious that certain individuals have never used HPT themselves, nor, do they realize the viper version is not a complete version. Another issue is the inability to access "enhanced" PIDS, like knock retard.



I'm flattered you spent the time to go and look up my quotes, but are you reading the same thing I am? In what you quoted, I pretty explicitly stated that you can run the car on HPT, but because of a lack of a number of features, it's not what we wanted to build. Trust me, it's the first thing we tried, and just weren't satisfied with it. Not only does it lack features, but depending on what/how you changed some of the tables, the car went into limp mode. You had to spend hours on the dyno just to figure out what the ECU liked and what it did not.

On William's car, James decided to give it another go. He got the car to run with the turbos, but it just did not drive the way it should, due to the things he had to do to trick the PCM into allowing boost. To the best of my knowledge, that is the only turbo Gen V to have ever run on the stock PCM. James arguably has more HPT experience with Gen Vs than anyone else, and even he was not happy with the initial results. He never got the car back to finish, and we've not really been interested in trying again.

We've developed a system that works, and customers are extremely satisfied with it. There's really no incentive for us to spend considerable time with a company that is unwilling to work with us on a product that is half developed.

I'm not trying to push MoTeC on anyone, as I don't make any money on selling the hardware, nor can I sell it, and my firmware is only available to Calvo Motorsports. I simply posted a thread about all of the things you gain with an EMS over the factory PCM. We're really happy with all of the improvements we've made with each car, and we're simply sharing our advancements. Maybe one day when HPT fully unlocks the entire PCM, we can try again and work around the other limiting factors.

[TrackAire]

Stock ECU's are tearing this forum apart.....

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

I just don't think a car that makes 1100hp, blows the tires off, switches lanes, has no knock control is worth it or fun. Steve's car on the factory 19" Pirellis drove straight as an arrow, and was a blast. I like to build quality fun cars and I just don't want to use the stock ECU on our builds.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Torrie from Unleashed Tuning has his TT running perfect on HPT, on 9 lbs. It took him a while to sort it out, but he got it on the $ according to him.
We've developed a Twin Turbo System that utilizes the OEM ECU. Our system has dyno'd 1002whp and 938wtq on 93 octane gas and stock engine.
http://stage6motorsports.com/store/images/web_pic.jpg

You say this, but where has the car been? What events has it been to? I'm in no way discrediting the car but everyone wants to see results. We have given them time after time and have 6 twin turbo cars well 5 now running around without issues.

[v10tt]

Just posting the info he sent me when I talked to him a couple of weeks agao when he tuned my car.

[aNinjaneer]

Just posting the info he sent me when I talked to him a couple of weeks agao when he tuned my car.

I remember the dyno video, but again, never saw anything after that. Last time I heard, it was going into limp mode with any considerable amount of boost. D3 ran a fair bit of boost on Evan's car, but since it's an auto, nobody knows how it would behave at that boost level with the stock transmission. Supposedly they worked all of the bugs out and got it to stop going into limp mode, but I know it went into limp mode plenty of times in the process. HPT just isn't ready for prime time turbo applications, even if James had countless hours to spend messing with it. Dodge seems to have really locked down the Gen V PCM with the torque management stuff.

[Sticky]

Torrie from Unleashed Tuning has his TT running perfect on HPT, on 9 lbs. It took him a while to sort it out, but he got it on the $ according to him.
We've developed a Twin Turbo System that utilizes the OEM ECU. Our system has dyno'd 1002whp and 938wtq on 93 octane gas and stock engine.
http://stage6motorsports.com/store/images/web_pic.jpg

I'd pay money to see that 1002 whp graph! Sick!

[Sticky]

I remember the dyno video, but again, never saw anything after that. Last time I heard, it was going into limp mode with any considerable amount of boost. D3 ran a fair bit of boost on Evan's car, but since it's an auto, nobody knows how it would behave at that boost level with the stock transmission. Supposedly they worked all of the bugs out and got it to stop going into limp mode, but I know it went into limp mode plenty of times in the process. HPT just isn't ready for prime time turbo applications, even if James had countless hours to spend messing with it. Dodge seems to have really locked down the Gen V PCM with the torque management stuff.

You're such a debbie downer. Limp mode you say? Didn't go to big name events you say? Oh no, that means it can never get sorted on HP Tuners or run at events. You're starting to sound like that guy who made it seem that the only cam solution was Arrow and their ECU module. The limp mode issues with that cam were fixed and were resolved through HP Tuners. Must have been magic?

How is your attitude helping? Honestly, I'd put in whatever effort I could to get a turbo setup running on HP Tuners and the stock ECU just to quote you.

Your posts make me go limp. Stock ECU tuned turbo Gen V Vipers making quadruple digits to the wheels do the opposite though.

[Junkie]

You're such a debbie downer. Limp mode you say? Didn't go to big name events you say? Oh no, that means it can never get sorted on HP Tuners or run at events. You're starting to sound like that guy who made it seem that the only cam solution was Arrow and their ECU module. The limp mode issues with that cam were fixed and were resolved through HP Tuners. Must have been magic?

How is your attitude helping? Honestly, I'd put in whatever effort I could to get a turbo setup running on HP Tuners and the stock ECU just to quote you.

Your posts make me go limp. Stock ECU tuned turbo Gen V Vipers making quadruple digits to the wheels do the opposite though.


So who do you tune for? When is your turbo kit with HP Tuners going to hit the market?

[aNinjaneer]

You're such a debbie downer. Limp mode you say? Didn't go to big name events you say? Oh no, that means it can never get sorted on HP Tuners or run at events. You're starting to sound like that guy who made it seem that the only cam solution was Arrow and their ECU module. The limp mode issues with that cam were fixed and were resolved through HP Tuners. Must have been magic?

How is your attitude helping? Honestly, I'd put in whatever effort I could to get a turbo setup running on HP Tuners and the stock ECU just to quote you.

Your posts make me go limp. Stock ECU tuned turbo Gen V Vipers making quadruple digits to the wheels do the opposite though.

I can't wait to see your results that you have with HPT and your turbo kit, and all of the headaches along the way. But you're totally right. I was able to write an ECU firmware on my own to control the car and all its OEM functionality, but am somehow unable to get HPT to work, and it's an issue with my abilities, not the tuning software... I don't know ANYTHING in this case. I definitely don't know anything about tuning Vipers, or how any of the systems work.

Of course you'll be able to sense the sarcasm by now. It's really frustrating to hear people like you regurgitate time after time the insinuations that there are no/few TR Gen Vs because of lack of effort. Trust me, we tried it. Multiple times. As have others. I don't know a single shop making considerable power on a Gen V with HPT that hasn't encountered limp mode at some point.

You've made it very clear that you've never used the software, and probably know little to nothing about the Gen V platform. I suggest you purchase the dongle and $1000 in credits and give it a go yourself, so you can show us all how it's done.

[v10tt]

Torrie's Car runs on 9 psi according to him. Probably the max. on the OEM ECU and HP tuners.

[v10tt]

I'd pay money to see that 1002 whp graph! Sick!
PM me so I can tell you where to send $$.

[TrackAire]

PM me so I can tell you where to send $$.


So let me get this right....there is a twin turbo Gen 5 system that runs on HP Tuners and puts out some nice numbers. It has a dyno graph showing the power output.

But, there are no videos of the unit driving around in traffic, roll racing, drag racing, etc. I don't understand if the car can run "perfect" on HPT, why wouldn't you want the world to know about it so you can sell more systems and totally undercut the guys pimping the $20k plus stand alone systems.

I've heard of some other attempts at twin turbo Gen 5's on HPT.....can they run?,...yup. Due they have issues such as surging, going into limp mode every 5th start, etc?.......yup.
"Running" and "drive-ability" are not the same thing.

I truly hope you can prove me wrong as this would be a big boost (no pun intended) to the FI Viper aftermarket and help make the Viper cars even more desirable.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

So let me get this right....there is a twin turbo Gen 5 system that runs on HP Tuners and puts out some nice numbers. It has a dyno graph showing the power output.

But, there are no videos of the unit driving around in traffic, roll racing, drag racing, etc. I don't understand if the car can run "perfect" on HPT, why wouldn't you want the world to know about it so you can sell more systems and totally undercut the guys pimping the $20k plus stand alone systems.

I've heard of some other attempts at twin turbo Gen 5's on HPT.....can they run?,...yup. Due they have issues such as surging, going into limp mode every 5th start, etc?.......yup.
"Running" and "drive-ability" are not the same thing.

I truly hope you can prove me wrong as this would be a big boost (no pun intended) to the FI Viper aftermarket and help make the Viper cars even more desirable.

I honestly do not think its possible to make 1000+hp all boost (and work properly) on the stock ecu on HP tuner currently. If you do all knock control strategies will have to be turned off. 25k engine or 15k motec system which gives you a bunch of other cool options....These aren't cheap toys!

[Sticky]

So who do you tune for? When is your turbo kit with HP Tuners going to hit the market?

I didn't realize I had to build a turbo kit to learn about turbo kits.

This is crazy but every forced induction setup I've bought has not resulted in me coming to market and competing with my own offering.

[Sticky]

I can't wait to see your results that you have with HPT and your turbo kit, and all of the headaches along the way. But you're totally right. I was able to write an ECU firmware on my own to control the car and all its OEM functionality, but am somehow unable to get HPT to work, and it's an issue with my abilities, not the tuning software... I don't know ANYTHING in this case. I definitely don't know anything about tuning Vipers, or how any of the systems work.

Of course you'll be able to sense the sarcasm by now. It's really frustrating to hear people like you regurgitate time after time the insinuations that there are no/few TR Gen Vs because of lack of effort. Trust me, we tried it. Multiple times. As have others. I don't know a single shop making considerable power on a Gen V with HPT that hasn't encountered limp mode at some point.

You've made it very clear that you've never used the software, and probably know little to nothing about the Gen V platform. I suggest you purchase the dongle and $1000 in credits and give it a go yourself, so you can show us all how it's done.

I didn't say anything about lack of effort I said discounting the stock ECU as a whole doesn't help. HP Tuners is obviously not a Motec and I fully agree a standalone is more capable. I think HP Tuners is doing some awesome stuff and would like to see it continue with support from the community. It's not like there are a ton of tuned Gen V Vipers out there anyway.

I know little to nothing about the platform because I like seeing tuning evolve? I know enough to realize there are successful HP Tuners tuned Gen V's it seems. I kind of think your tuning ability is overstated when you claimed a motec was necessary for a centrifugal supercharger setup.

I'm not claiming to be a tuner by any means so I'm not sure why you are putting words in my mouth. I just think people don't have to follow your advice or spend money on what you advocate to get good results which has already been proven by D3PE and A&C Performance.

Maybe it's you that should spend more time with the software?

[aNinjaneer]

I didn't say anything about lack of effort I said discounting the stock ECU as a whole doesn't help. HP Tuners is obviously not a Motec and I fully agree a standalone is more capable. I think HP Tuners is doing some awesome stuff and would like to see it continue with support from the community. It's not like there are a ton of tuned Gen V Vipers out there anyway.

I know little to nothing about the platform because I like seeing tuning evolve? I know enough to realize there are successful HP Tuners tuned Gen V's it seems. I kind of think your tuning ability is overstated when you claimed a motec was necessary for a centrifugal supercharger setup.

I'm not claiming to be a tuner by any means so I'm not sure why you are putting words in my mouth. I just think people don't have to follow your advice or spend money on what you advocate to get good results which has already been proven by D3PE and A&C Performance.

Maybe it's you that should spend more time with the software?

You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said a MoTeC was necessary to get a Gen V running with a blower... I said you can't properly optimize it with HPT's current iteration of software... Even D3 took months to figure everything out wit HPT, and the car still went into limp mode numerous times at Viper Nationals when they upped the boost. Not to discredit their ability, but rather to point out the extreme hurdles you have to overcome to get a Gen V boosted without hitting limp mode every time you change conditions. Again, you're welcome to give it a shot if you think it's really that simple. Even some of the bolt-on cars running HPT have been going into limp mode left and right. I know of another big-name HPT tuner that did 5-10 in a group before a track event, and every single one of the group except for one went into limp mode at the track. It's simply an unrefined product, and we don't have the time or patience to be the ones to spend countless hours figuring out what works and what doesn't to make a meager profit, if any at all. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

Don't you find it a bit hypocritical to expressly admit that you aren't a tuner, but yet claim that we don't know what we're doing and haven't put in reasonable effort? We tried to work WITH HPT on further developing the product, and at the time, they told us they had no interest. They have made minor improvements here and there, but it's not the path we chose to follow. Todd at A&C has decided to pursue that avenue with James, and they are making lots of progress with it, but I know for a fact that neither of them would tell you it's been without issues.

You can choose to believe what we/I say or not. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm here to share my experiences, state my opinions, and divulge what information I can to the community. What you choose to do wth that information is up to you. Antonio has plenty of customers lined up for turbo kits, so there's no reason for us at this moment to consider a budget kit. D3 seems to have good success with their blower package, and I'd recommend you speak to them if you're interested in that. Antonio started working on the blower package, and he can answer more questions about the status of whether or not the development of that will continue.

[Sticky]

You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said a MoTeC was necessary to get a Gen V running with a blower... I said you can't properly optimize it with HPT's current iteration of software... Even D3 took months to figure everything out wit HPT, and the car still went into limp mode numerous times at Viper Nationals when they upped the boost. Not to discredit their ability, but rather to point out the extreme hurdles you have to overcome to get a Gen V boosted without hitting limp mode every time you change conditions. Again, you're welcome to give it a shot if you think it's really that simple. Even some of the bolt-on cars running HPT have been going into limp mode left and right. I know of another big-name HPT tuner that did 5-10 in a group before a track event, and every single one of the group except for one went into limp mode at the track. It's simply an unrefined product, and we don't have the time or patience to be the ones to spend countless hours figuring out what works and what doesn't to make a meager profit, if any at all. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

Don't you find it a bit hypocritical to expressly admit that you aren't a tuner, but yet claim that we don't know what we're doing and haven't put in reasonable effort? We tried to work WITH HPT on further developing the product, and at the time, they told us they had no interest. They have made minor improvements here and there, but it's not the path we chose to follow. Todd at A&C has decided to pursue that avenue with James, and they are making lots of progress with it, but I know for a fact that neither of them would tell you it's been without issues.

You can choose to believe what we/I say or not. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm here to share my experiences, state my opinions, and divulge what information I can to the community. What you choose to do wth that information is up to you. Antonio has plenty of customers lined up for turbo kits, so there's no reason for us at this moment to consider a budget kit. D3 seems to have good success with their blower package, and I'd recommend you speak to them if you're interested in that. Antonio started working on the blower package, and he can answer more questions about the status of whether or not the development of that will continue.

I'm not claiming anything about your effort. I think the Calvo turbo package is awesome. Your own post highlights my point. D3PE put in time with HP Tuners and got their supercharger running well on the stock ECU. Now even Hennessey is selling this setup although he calls it his own as he's a douchenozzle.

My entire point is HP Tuners and stock ECU tuning can and will evolve. Discounting it as a whole is wrong to do. Nobody has to go the Motec route although obviously it is preferred. The thing is, you can buy a turbo kit for $20k from Stage 6 on the stock ecu. Will it be as comprehensive as your Motec $55k installed setup? No, but I think it's well worth exploring unless $35k cash is chump change to you.

I don't see any hypocrisy from me but I get a hint from you as you stated a Motec will make more power than D3PE's approach and it is the only way to do it properly. Well, I think D3PE did it properly and made plenty of power. Not to mention a centrifugal is easier to tune than a turbo setup.

There is nothing I need to believe from you. If your point is the Motec is more capable, well, duh. Thanks for that stunning revelation. Saying that HP Tuners can't properly tune a forced induction setup is a pile of BS though.

[Mark Conte]

Sticky I think the issue is that you're not trying to see both sides here. Calvo and Collin are trying to deliver a quality product for their customers. The better the product is the happier the customers are. The less issues these customers have the happier they are, the more people they tell and the more repeat business Antonio and Collin can get.

When you have a solid option that you can deliver repeatable results with that is the option you choose. They attempted to make a lower rung package to save customers money in an effort to reach a second group of buyers, but were up front that they were unhappy with the mid-term quality of the end product. So they wanted some more time to see if they could get it to where they were satisfied (AKA - stating that more HP Tuners development was needed and saying they were going to try and take that on before making a final decision that the customer needed to move to something they could be satisfied with the end result of - Motec).

When that option was no longer there after the car was crashed, they moved to the stance that with so many hours already invested into that car and the shortcomings it had and how much more work it looked like it would need - and probably a pretty good educated guess about if it was going to ever act the way they wanted (sans more development from HP Tuners internally) - they said that they are not interested in trying to develop that lower rung package any longer.

To be upset at them for saying that in their experience after a legitimate attempt, they do not feel that HP Tuners currently will allow them to deliver a finished product up to their standards is you being very unreasonable.

They have standards, found a solution. The solution that Collin and Antonio developed took TONS of hours, the M1 software is different than a normal ECU where everything is done, you configure the sensors and go about your day. They had to write firmware, they had to figure out all the CAN language for the dash. It is an extremely involved operation. In essence they had to write all the things that HP Tuners needs to figure out how to unlock, and additionally write in all the things that the stock ECU doesn't have parameters for. It was an extremely in depth undertaking which is why you can't just go buy a M1 and put it on your Viper, it must be purchased through Calvo Motorsports because they own the software package for the car.

So beyond the fact that they even gave the HP Tuners a real shot, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them championing a better system, and even moreso, a system they had to spend thousands of dollars developing so that they could even use it.

Reading your responses I'm having a difficult time figuring out what you actually want out of the conversation. I can't tell if you're just feeling like them not continuing to work on HP Tuners is them in some way calling your baby ugly - which only makes sense to me if you are a Chrysler OEM ECU Engineer.

But either way you're definitely being unreasonable in terms of how much you're running these guys through the ringer for promoting a far and away better performing option. Even if HP Tuners figures out the cheat code that completely unlocks every aspect of the ECU, the Motec is still going to be better. You do understand that right? And even if it was entirely unlocked, it would still be OK for them to recommend the Motec.

You aren't appreciating the amount of time it takes to get an unstable platform, or an undeveloped platform to work correctly. Looking to save $15,000 of ECU is all well and good until the calibrator needs 100 hours of dynoing your car over and over to try and make it have the same 3000rpm 43% throttle 1lb of boost hiccup go away that only occurs at 62 degrees ambient.

Well if he bills you for that time you just spent the $15k again and have an inferior product. And who knows if he can even make it go away. And that doesn't count the eighty loaded hits on the dyno they may need to do on your engine which might be an entire season of driving for the owners buying this package.

These are the things that you eliminate when going with a solid system where you aren't hamstrung by "what is locked" or trying to make something that doesn't want to see boost operate a turbo engine at over two atmospheres.

[aNinjaneer]

lots of truths

http://i.imgur.com/0mKXcg1.gif?noredirect

D3 has not been without their share of issues, either. Also, the only car they currently have that has shown up to any events or done any videos has an auto in it. That's in no way at all an apples to apples comparison.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Sticky I think the issue is that you're not trying to see both sides here. Calvo and Collin are trying to deliver a quality product for their customers. The better the product is the happier the customers are. The less issues these customers have the happier they are, the more people they tell and the more repeat business Antonio and Collin can get.

When you have a solid option that you can deliver repeatable results with that is the option you choose. They attempted to make a lower rung package to save customers money in an effort to reach a second group of buyers, but were up front that they were unhappy with the mid-term quality of the end product. So they wanted some more time to see if they could get it to where they were satisfied (AKA - stating that more HP Tuners development was needed and saying they were going to try and take that on before making a final decision that the customer needed to move to something they could be satisfied with the end result of - Motec).

When that option was no longer there after the car was crashed, they moved to the stance that with so many hours already invested into that car and the shortcomings it had and how much more work it looked like it would need - and probably a pretty good educated guess about if it was going to ever act the way they wanted (sans more development from HP Tuners internally) - they said that they are not interested in trying to develop that lower rung package any longer.

To be upset at them for saying that in their experience after a legitimate attempt, they do not feel that HP Tuners currently will allow them to deliver a finished product up to their standards is you being very unreasonable.

They have standards, found a solution. The solution that Collin and Antonio developed took TONS of hours, the M1 software is different than a normal ECU where everything is done, you configure the sensors and go about your day. They had to write firmware, they had to figure out all the CAN language for the dash. It is an extremely involved operation. In essence they had to write all the things that HP Tuners needs to figure out how to unlock, and additionally write in all the things that the stock ECU doesn't have parameters for. It was an extremely in depth undertaking which is why you can't just go buy a M1 and put it on your Viper, it must be purchased through Calvo Motorsports because they own the software package for the car.

So beyond the fact that they even gave the HP Tuners a real shot, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them championing a better system, and even moreso, a system they had to spend thousands of dollars developing so that they could even use it.

Reading your responses I'm having a difficult time figuring out what you actually want out of the conversation. I can't tell if you're just feeling like them not continuing to work on HP Tuners is them in some way calling your baby ugly - which only makes sense to me if you are a Chrysler OEM ECU Engineer.

But either way you're definitely being unreasonable in terms of how much you're running these guys through the ringer for promoting a far and away better performing option. Even if HP Tuners figures out the cheat code that completely unlocks every aspect of the ECU, the Motec is still going to be better. You do understand that right? And even if it was entirely unlocked, it would still be OK for them to recommend the Motec.

You aren't appreciating the amount of time it takes to get an unstable platform, or an undeveloped platform to work correctly. Looking to save $15,000 of ECU is all well and good until the calibrator needs 100 hours of dynoing your car over and over to try and make it have the same 3000rpm 43% throttle 1lb of boost hiccup go away that only occurs at 62 degrees ambient.

Well if he bills you for that time you just spent the $15k again and have an inferior product. And who knows if he can even make it go away. And that doesn't count the eighty loaded hits on the dyno they may need to do on your engine which might be an entire season of driving for the owners buying this package.

These are the things that you eliminate when going with a solid system where you aren't hamstrung by "what is locked" or trying to make something that doesn't want to see boost operate a turbo engine at over two atmospheres.


Not to mention you need to turn knock control off on a hp tuners to get anywhere with boost. What is your motor worth to you?

[rlhay2]

Well, I think D3PE did it properly and made plenty of power. Not to mention a centrifugal is easier to tune than a turbo setup.

Sounds great! Now please share the link to the vid of a D3PE Viper with the manual transmission making a 1/4 mile run please. ETs is not that important, trap speed will be the most informative.


To be upset at them for saying that in their experience after a legitimate attempt, they do not feel that HP Tuners currently will allow them to deliver a finished product up to their standards is you being very unreasonable.

As has been stated, HPTuners is a beta product. It may evolve to a damn good solution for boosted applications. It does not appear to be there yet.

[aNinjaneer]

I'm not claiming anything about your effort. I think the Calvo turbo package is awesome. Your own post highlights my point. D3PE put in time with HP Tuners and got their supercharger running well on the stock ECU. Now even Hennessey is selling this setup although he calls it his own as he's a douchenozzle.

My entire point is HP Tuners and stock ECU tuning can and will evolve. Discounting it as a whole is wrong to do. Nobody has to go the Motec route although obviously it is preferred. The thing is, you can buy a turbo kit for $20k from Stage 6 on the stock ecu. Will it be as comprehensive as your Motec $55k installed setup? No, but I think it's well worth exploring unless $35k cash is chump change to you.

I don't see any hypocrisy from me but I get a hint from you as you stated a Motec will make more power than D3PE's approach and it is the only way to do it properly. Well, I think D3PE did it properly and made plenty of power. Not to mention a centrifugal is easier to tune than a turbo setup.

There is nothing I need to believe from you. If your point is the Motec is more capable, well, duh. Thanks for that stunning revelation. Saying that HP Tuners can't properly tune a forced induction setup is a pile of BS though.

Yes, D3 has made some progress with HPT, but to say they haven't had issues is simply incorrect. The last event I saw the car at was Viper Nationals, with an auto in the car, and it went into limp mode after every burnout. They say they've fixed it since, but I haven't seen the car at any other events, so can't confirm. Not at all to discredit D3, but rather, again, point out that HPT is not a refined product at this point.

I just spoke to Dwight (Stage 6) the other day asking about Torrie's car. His car has never ran at any event, so who knows how well it actually runs on the street. He also said that they, too, are running into limp mode at elevated boost levels. How many shops running boosted cars on HPT need to experience limp mode for you to consider for a second that the product is simply not mature enough to offer a turbo package with any sort of warranty?


Sounds great! Now please share the link to the vid of the D3PE car making a 1/4 mile run please. ETs is not that important, trap speed will be the most informative.

As has been stated, HPTuners is a beta product. It may evolve to a damn good solution for boosted applications. It does not appear to be there yet.

D3 went 9.46 @ 143 with the auto at Viper Nationals, which is still the Gen V 1/4 mile record. But yes, HPT for the Gen V is nowhere near a finished product, and as you said, I believe it is still in Beta.

[98intrigue]

Hey Mark! Welcome to post #1. Looking forward to seeing a Viper in your future :)

[Mark Conte]

Thanks Ryan.

[Junkie]

Thanks Ryan.

Viper > Supra

[Mark Conte]

Your Viper is your slowest sports car. ;)

[Junkie]

Your Viper is your slowest sports car. ;)

lol by far! Lydias truck and my 37 are faster.

[aNinjaneer]

Your Viper is your slowest sports car. ;)

Depends on whether or not you're turning. ;)

[Mark Conte]

The guy that spent 2 weeks posting 2000hp of fuel consumption isn't allowed to say the word "Turning" for at least a month.

[aNinjaneer]

The guy that spent 2 weeks posting 2000hp of fuel consumption isn't allowed to say the word "Turning" for at least a month.

Well then you aren't allowed to list all of your wife's cars in your signature.

[98intrigue]

Well then you aren't allowed to list all of your wife's cars in your signature.

http://reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/chang_spits_milk.gif

[Junkie]

+rep, that was so funny S**T

[Mark Conte]

Well played...well played.

[Steve M]

But yes, HPT for the Gen V is nowhere near a finished product, and as you said, I believe it is still in Beta.

It hasn't been in beta since the release of VCM Suite 3.0, and that was back on February 1st of this year. They just released VCM Suite 3.2 back in June. It still isn't a fully developed solution (being able to adjust knock sensitivity would be nice, as would a few other things I've addressed over on the HPT forum), but it definitely isn't beta.

As for the reference to the 5-10 bolt-on cars going into limp mode, that was a known and well documented issue with adjusting one table for better throttle response. That was also VERY early on (about 2 years ago at this point), pretty much right after the product hit the market, and people were still trying to figure out what worked and what didn't. If a bolt-on car is going into limp mode with HPT these days, it's because the guy clicking the mouse did something wrong. Suggesting otherwise is misleading at best.

[7TH_SIGN]

Viper > Supra

Man I miss mine sometimes. Like I can't sleep. Maybe it's just me withdrawing from boost! Do you still have both of yours?

[Sticky]

Sounds great! Now please share the link to the vid of a D3PE Viper with the manual transmission making a 1/4 mile run please. ETs is not that important, trap speed will be the most informative.

What? Am I in charge of what they do with their car? They went with an auto to get 1/4 mile records and they accomplished it. Seems like it runs well to me.


As has been stated, HPTuners is a beta product. It may evolve to a damn good solution for boosted applications. It does not appear to be there yet.

Ok well maybe it will get there? Saying people shouldn't use it doesn't make sense. You use it unless your sig is off. Guess you are comfortable with beta? Or maybe it's not as rudimentary as some imply?

[Sticky]

Sticky I think the issue is that you're not trying to see both sides here. Calvo and Collin are trying to deliver a quality product for their customers. The better the product is the happier the customers are. The less issues these customers have the happier they are, the more people they tell and the more repeat business Antonio and Collin can get.

When you have a solid option that you can deliver repeatable results with that is the option you choose. They attempted to make a lower rung package to save customers money in an effort to reach a second group of buyers, but were up front that they were unhappy with the mid-term quality of the end product. So they wanted some more time to see if they could get it to where they were satisfied (AKA - stating that more HP Tuners development was needed and saying they were going to try and take that on before making a final decision that the customer needed to move to something they could be satisfied with the end result of - Motec).

When that option was no longer there after the car was crashed, they moved to the stance that with so many hours already invested into that car and the shortcomings it had and how much more work it looked like it would need - and probably a pretty good educated guess about if it was going to ever act the way they wanted (sans more development from HP Tuners internally) - they said that they are not interested in trying to develop that lower rung package any longer.

To be upset at them for saying that in their experience after a legitimate attempt, they do not feel that HP Tuners currently will allow them to deliver a finished product up to their standards is you being very unreasonable.

They have standards, found a solution. The solution that Collin and Antonio developed took TONS of hours, the M1 software is different than a normal ECU where everything is done, you configure the sensors and go about your day. They had to write firmware, they had to figure out all the CAN language for the dash. It is an extremely involved operation. In essence they had to write all the things that HP Tuners needs to figure out how to unlock, and additionally write in all the things that the stock ECU doesn't have parameters for. It was an extremely in depth undertaking which is why you can't just go buy a M1 and put it on your Viper, it must be purchased through Calvo Motorsports because they own the software package for the car.

So beyond the fact that they even gave the HP Tuners a real shot, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them championing a better system, and even moreso, a system they had to spend thousands of dollars developing so that they could even use it.

Reading your responses I'm having a difficult time figuring out what you actually want out of the conversation. I can't tell if you're just feeling like them not continuing to work on HP Tuners is them in some way calling your baby ugly - which only makes sense to me if you are a Chrysler OEM ECU Engineer.

But either way you're definitely being unreasonable in terms of how much you're running these guys through the ringer for promoting a far and away better performing option. Even if HP Tuners figures out the cheat code that completely unlocks every aspect of the ECU, the Motec is still going to be better. You do understand that right? And even if it was entirely unlocked, it would still be OK for them to recommend the Motec.

You aren't appreciating the amount of time it takes to get an unstable platform, or an undeveloped platform to work correctly. Looking to save $15,000 of ECU is all well and good until the calibrator needs 100 hours of dynoing your car over and over to try and make it have the same 3000rpm 43% throttle 1lb of boost hiccup go away that only occurs at 62 degrees ambient.

Well if he bills you for that time you just spent the $15k again and have an inferior product. And who knows if he can even make it go away. And that doesn't count the eighty loaded hits on the dyno they may need to do on your engine which might be an entire season of driving for the owners buying this package.

These are the things that you eliminate when going with a solid system where you aren't hamstrung by "what is locked" or trying to make something that doesn't want to see boost operate a turbo engine at over two atmospheres.

If wanting further details on stock ECU tuned examples is running someone through the ringer well then so be it. They posted this thread themselves. I didn't even know about the Stage 6 setup on HP Tuners or that anyone cracked quadruple digits on the stock ECU until this thread. I'm learning and I hope others are too about their options. How else do you propose to utilize a forum?

I don't know how many times I need to say I think Calvo's offering is a great product. $55k cash is a lot of money to me and I'm not prepared to dump it on a turbo kit worth more than 50% of the value of the car. Some people don't mind. Good for them, it's all relative.

The point is the Calvo tuner continually pushes his approach as the only approach. I think that's pretty lame. Especially considering people are doing all kinds of interesting things all kinds of different ways. He discounted D3PE and they went out and took the 1/4 mile record. If that isn't showing the capability of stock ECU tuned force induction Gen V cars I don't know what is.

Let's not forget the Dodge engineers specifically put forged internals in this motor for those who want to run nitrous or turbos. It's a strong engine. They knew people would boost it. People are even doing it on the stock ECU and it's holding together. This motor makes quadruple digits without breaking a sweat. Even on the stock ECU as nitrous build after nitrous build has shown.

I'm not appreciating what exactly? Their turbo setup is great. The Motec is great. What I don't appreciate is a 'tuner' misleading an entire forum that his way is the only way.

[Sticky]

I just spoke to Dwight (Stage 6) the other day asking about Torrie's car. His car has never ran at any event, so who knows how well it actually runs on the street. He also said that they, too, are running into limp mode at elevated boost levels. How many shops running boosted cars on HPT need to experience limp mode for you to consider for a second that the product is simply not mature enough to offer a turbo package with any sort of warranty?

If you are as good of a tuner as you want the forum to think you are why don't you help them out? Or would that cut into the profit margin?

It's just a matter of time before it's figured out. All stock DME tuning on every platform evolves. I think it's encouraging that we are seeing what we are seeing already. I like to think positively of what can be done instead of trying to make it seem like it can't be done.

Much respect to those pushing the Gen V and stock ECU tuning. Someone has to do it...

[rlhay2]

Desperate troll is desperate and still trolling.

It's time to close this thread.

[Junkie]

Desperate troll is desperate and still trolling.

It's time to close this thread.

X2. It's very obvious

[Sticky]

Desperate troll is desperate and still trolling.

It's time to close this thread.

It certainly takes one to know one. Your posts regarding what D3PE does with their Viper being my responsibility add a ton to the thread. Not to mention your pointless insults that you throw around.

Could have sworn the topic was a stock ECU tuned twin turbo Viper. Sorry people wanting to discuss this and learn about the pros and cons bothers you so much. Maybe you're the troll? Go read a different thread if you have nothing to contribute other than asking for it to be closed because you can't handle it.

- - - Updated - - -


X2. It's very obvious

Get a room you two.

[Junkie]

What is there to discuss? The shop and tuner have posted opinions on it. You're the only one still on it. It seems the only issue you have is Collin not liking HPT, where in reality that just doesn't matter. If Calvo doesn't want to pursue it anymore, you being a cry baby about it on the internet isn't going to change that.

When do you start working on HP tuning with a TT Viper? Since you're so dead set on it working I assume you have or have intentions of building a boosted Gen5?

[Sticky]

What is there to discuss? The shop and tuner have posted opinions on it. You're the only one still on it. It seems the only issue you have is Collin not liking HPT, where in reality that just doesn't matter. If Calvo doesn't want to pursue it anymore, you being a cry baby about it on the internet isn't going to change that.

When do you start working on HP tuning with a TT Viper? Since you're so dead set on it working I assume you have or have intentions of building a boosted Gen5?

They are welcome to their opinions. What, I'm not welcome to mine? It also means HP Tuners discussion ceases as a whole?

Whether someone likes or dislikes HP Tuners or stock ECU tuning is irrelevant. It is still pertinent to Gen V forced induction discussion as a whole.

I don't care if Calvo wants to pursue it or not, so what? The discussion as a whole can move forward with or without Calvo's blesing. They can do whatever they want as it's their business. I'm not dead set on it working but I'm certainly interested in those who have tried or have it working. The discussion on stock ECU tuning doesn't end because Calvo's tuner doesn't like it.

[rlhay2]

It certainly takes one to know one. Your posts regarding what D3PE does with their Viper being my responsibility add a ton to the thread. Not to mention your pointless insults that you throw around.

My 14 year old has more cogent arguments.

You cited D3PE to support your argument. There is no proof that they have had success with a manual transmission, stock engine, Force Induction Viper. Like many, I love the idea of a F1X on a Viper, there is just no proof that it works...yet.

I wish you the best on your pursuits. But your childlike demeanor on this forum is not going to behoove many to share information with you.

Calvo tried a HPT TT car and deemed it unsuccessful. Feel free to start another thread, imploring to hear of the success of others.
Most vendors are going to be leery of posting in another shop's thread.

You'll likely dismiss this advice, it's what children do.

[Sticky]

My 14 year old has more cogent arguments.

He must take after his mom.


You cited D3PE to support your argument. There is no proof that they have had success with a manual transmission, stock engine, Force Induction Viper. Like many, I love the idea of a F1X on a Viper, there is just no proof that it works...yet.

Seriously? LOL, even Hennessey is selling the D3PE kit. They used an auto because an auto is easier to launch on the strip. The kit worked fine with a manual. Why would the transmission choice mean the blower doesn't work? Huh?


I wish you the best on your pursuits. But your childlike demeanor on this forum is not going to behoove many to share information with you.

I don't care what you wish me as I have no respect for your opinion at this point.


Calvo tried a HPT TT car and deemed it unsuccessful.

So what? This means an HPT tuned TT car is impossible or that others can't do it? Did you ignore the posts about other attempts by other people?


You'll likely dismiss this advice, it's what children do.

No, it's what adults do when someone who has no idea what they're talking about tries to sound like they do. You just smile, nod, laugh to yourself, and move on.

[Junkie]

Load
Torque management on the shifts
Wheel spin

Just a few things the auto changes drastically

[ViperSmith]

Strange how someone who isn't building FI cars at all knows more and better than people who use it daily to build FI cars.

[Jack B]

Nothing strange, penis envy is a powerful motivator.


Strange how someone who isn't building FI cars at all knows more and better than people who use it daily to build FI cars.

[aNinjaneer]

All that really needs to be said here is that not a single FI car without an auto on HPT has made it to any events. At all. And the one auto that did went into limp mode after every burnout. I've given you numerous examples of cars that have consistently had limp mode issues, but yet you still "feel" like I'm being biased because I like a product that works 100% every time. We tried HPT on boost multiple times, and were never satisfied with it. I tried, James tried, and none of us were content. I developed a product that works, and it's what we're sticking with. Period.

But again, you're welcome to buy HPT for your car and start playing with it. Then you can fab up your own turbo kit and show us all how it's done. If you manage to pull it off, you'll surely sell a number of kits, so have at it.

[Sticky]

Strange how someone who isn't building FI cars at all knows more and better than people who use it daily to build FI cars.

I only happen to own over 40 forums dedicated to forced induction cars. Maybe I do know better?

If selling forced induction cars made anyone a genius Hennessey would be considered one. He isn't.

[Sticky]

All that really needs to be said here is that not a single FI car without an auto on HPT has made it to any events. At all. And the one auto that did went into limp mode after every burnout. I've given you numerous examples of cars that have consistently had limp mode issues, but yet you still "feel" like I'm being biased because I like a product that works 100% every time. We tried HPT on boost multiple times, and were never satisfied with it. I tried, James tried, and none of us were content. I developed a product that works, and it's what we're sticking with. Period.

But again, you're welcome to buy HPT for your car and start playing with it. Then you can fab up your own turbo kit and show us all how it's done. If you manage to pull it off, you'll surely sell a number of kits, so have at it.

Didn't D3PE take the 1/4 mile record from you with a centrifugal when you're running turbos? Why aren't you talking about that? More power and torque yet you're slower? Why aren't you getting out to a strip or have you admitted defeat? Why are you creating arbitrary requirements for a system to work?

All you talk about is limp mode issues that cars had in the past. Big deal, like your Motec setup worked flawlessly the moment a harness was created.

I'm welcome to buy HPT and fab up a kit and sell it? Cool. The thing is I won't do that. I have no vested monetary interest in this topic. You do. That alone says plenty about why you push the Motec so hard.

- - - Updated - - -


Nothing strange, penis envy is a powerful motivator.

Penis envy and common sense are synonyms now. Heh, the Viper world sure is interesting. Especially with the fragile egos.

[Viper Girl]

I only happen to own over 40 forums dedicated to forced induction cars. Maybe I do know better?


Then I would expect you should know something about forum etiquette...

Coming in here just to argue, isn't what this forum is about...

Discussion and debate is fine, but your purposeless inflammatory, insulting, trolling posts are against forum policy.

[GenV]

edited excessive language from "Sticky" trolling the forums as "Gen V" now...

[aNinjaneer]

Didn't D3PE take the 1/4 mile record from you with a centrifugal when you're running turbos? Why aren't you talking about that? More power and torque yet you're slower? Why aren't you getting out to a strip or have you admitted defeat? Why are you creating arbitrary requirements for a system to work?

All you talk about is limp mode issues that cars had in the past. Big deal, like your Motec setup worked flawlessly the moment a harness was created.

I'm welcome to buy HPT and fab up a kit and sell it? Cool. The thing is I won't do that. I have no vested monetary interest in this topic. You do. That alone says plenty about why you push the Motec so hard

Yes, they have the 1/4 mile record, which they got at Viper Nationals. We had clutch issues at that event, or surely could have ran faster. Our trap speed was more than 10mph higher than theirs back on the old turbo kit and stock motor. Surely you understand the difference between a manual transmission and an auto when it comes to e.t. and trap speed. Clutching a 1/4 mile is much more difficult, so an auto at the same power level will always run a faster e.t. and lower trap speed. We haven't ran a full 1/4 mile yet, but we have far surpassed D3's 1/8 mile time and mph. We didn't make a big deal about it because it wasn't at an event, and wasn't even a full pass. We couldn't run the full 1/4 without a cage and parachute, so we were letting off around the 1/8th at a test night. We're not drag racers, and only went to get some data. D3 will probably keep their record for a while. When they show up at another event with a manual and run any respectable time, we can have a debate about the success they've had on HPT. Think what you want, but you've proven more and more with each post that you don't know much except how to troll. I'm not sure why I'm even wasting my time responding to you.

[aNinjaneer]

edited excessive language from "Sticky" trolling the forums as "Gen V" now...

So he created another screen name to troll with, now? Is that grounds for banning?

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

So he created another screen name to troll with, now? Is that grounds for banning?

Hopefully lookup the ip too. Something tells me we might find out more about his promoting other shops in my thread.

[ACR]

Then I would expect you should know something about forum etiquette...

Coming in here just to argue, isn't what this forum is about...

Discussion and debate is fine, but your purposeless inflammatory, insulting, trolling posts are against forum policy.

Don't bother, he's still hurt over the fact Gintani never got his supercharged M3 running and ESS owns the power title. He's known to argue

[Viper Girl]

So he created another screen name to troll with, now? Is that grounds for banning?
Yes, the VOA forums are limited to one account per person. General Forum Rules (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/117-General-Forum-Rules)


"sticky" didn't like what he saw... he created a "New Forum Member" i.e. "GenV"... = Two accounts

Add to that... the public message he left for me personally as "GenV"... which again violated the forum rules for childish language...

[Jack B]

why do you think he is spinning his wheels on our forum?


Don't bother, he's still hurt over the fact Gintani never got his supercharged M3 running and ESS owns the power title. He's known to argue

[aNinjaneer]

Yes, the VOA forums are limited to one account per person. General Forum Rules (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/117-General-Forum-Rules)


"sticky" didn't like what he saw... he created a "New Forum Member" i.e. "GenV"... = Two accounts

Add to that... the public message he left for me personally as "GenV"... which again violated the forum rules for childish language...

His IP address didn't happen to match any other names besides those two, did it? Does anyone know him from the other sites, and who he is? Glad we can get back to amicable discussion now.

[aNinjaneer]

Wow. I can't believe this guy... Still putting words in my mouth and spreading shit he knows nothing of.

edit: removed url to not give into this guy's crap.

[Viper Girl]

The IP was only used by those his two accounts...

Personally I wouldn't give him the link traffic to his site...

[aNinjaneer]

The IP was only used by those his two accounts...

Personally I wouldn't give him the link traffic to his site...

I thought about that, but I can't stay silent about him. He needs to chill, because we've found out a lot about him that we may choose to publicly disclose if he keeps this crap up.

[7TH_SIGN]

Wow. I can't believe this guy... Still putting words in my mouth and spreading shit he knows nothing of.

http://boostaddict.com/content.php?7441-Stage-6-Motorsports-proves-Calvo-Motorsports-wrong-Stock-ECU-tuned-Gen-V-Viper-tops-1000-whp-on-pump-gas

Wow. Some people have way too much free time. I can't believe someone would argue that a stock ECU is superior than a standalone on an aftermarket forced induction build.

[aNinjaneer]

Wow. Some people have way too much free time. I can't believe someone would argue that a stock ECU is superior than a standalone on an aftermarket forced induction build.

I fully understand that some people would be OK with the stock PCM. I fully support other shops using it, as long as customers understand the potential limitations, and simply want a budget system. We tried it multiple times and were not happy with it for a turbo application. D3 seems to have had success with it on their supercharger setup, and hopefully we can see one of their stock PCM cars without issues at an event sometime. I'd love to see HPT become a viable option, it just isn't worth the R&D effort at this point. This guy just has a stick up his ass because people didn't care for his trolling.

[ViperSmith]

haters gonna hate

[Junkie]

By providing that link all your doing is playing his game, Pointless.

[aNinjaneer]

By providing that link all your doing is playing his game, Pointless.

Unfortunately, by NOT pointing out the misinformation, it makes me and Calvo Motorsports look bad. There are plenty of people who will read that and take his word as fact, and that bothers me. Sure, he'll get a few page hits from the link, but I'd rather people see him for what he is, and hopefully expose him as a fraud so that others don't give him any credit in the future.

[7TH_SIGN]

I fully understand that some people would be OK with the stock PCM. I fully support other shops using it, as long as customers understand the potential limitations, and simply want a budget system. We tried it multiple times and were not happy with it for a turbo application. D3 seems to have had success with it on their supercharger setup, and hopefully we can see one of their stock PCM cars without issues at an event sometime. I'd love to see HPT become a viable option, it just isn't worth the R&D effort at this point. This guy just has a stick up his ass because people didn't care for his trolling.

I tip my hat to your sir as I know very little on tuning an EMS other than the basics. I leave that to the pros like you. One thing I've never done is argue with a tuner. I've run cars with 1,000hp and never had an engine blowup or even a check engine light come on. Keep doing your thing and just know that most of us in the Viper community greatly appreciate all your hard work on our platform.

[Jack B]

For kicks, who is the shop offering the 20k kit


Unfortunately, by NOT pointing out the misinformation, it makes me and Calvo Motorsports look bad. There are plenty of people who will read that and take his word as fact, and that bothers me. Sure, he'll get a few page hits from the link, but I'd rather people see him for what he is, and hopefully expose him as a fraud so that others don't give him any credit in the future.

[Tooner]

Wow. Some people have way too much free time. I can't believe someone would argue that a stock ECU is superior than a standalone on an aftermarket forced induction build.

I have to chime in after reading this as it seems some people have trouble with reading comprehension.

I never read anything that said the stock ECU is superior. What I read was that stock ECU tuning can make big power and that stock ECU tuning on the platform will evolve over time. He proved this correct.

Also that it is more cost effective to do tuning on the stock ECU. Frankly, dismissing stock ECU tuning does a disservice to those of us who would like to learn about all the options available at all price points. Thankfully there are those who get this.

[aNinjaneer]

For kicks, who is the shop offering the 20k kit

Stage 6. The info is on Stingy's post, but he fails to mention the relationship between Stage 6 (who built the car) and Torrie McPhail (who owns and tunes the car). The car has yet to make any sort of video on the street, or run at any event. I'm told it goes into limp mode at elevated boost.

[aNinjaneer]

I have to chime in after reading this as it seems some people have trouble with reading comprehension.

I never read anything that said the stock ECU is superior. What I read was that stock ECU tuning can make big power and that stock ECU tuning on the platform will evolve over time. He proved this correct.

Also that it is more cost effective to do stock tuning on the stock ECU. Frankly, dismissing stock ECU tuning does a disservice to those of us who would like to learn about all the options available at all price points. Thankfully there are those who get this.

I wonder who this could be... Screen name number 3... :t1253:

[Tooner]

Unfortunately, by NOT pointing out the misinformation, it makes me and Calvo Motorsports look bad. There are plenty of people who will read that and take his word as fact, and that bothers me. Sure, he'll get a few page hits from the link, but I'd rather people see him for what he is, and hopefully expose him as a fraud so that others don't give him any credit in the future.

You made Calvo look bad on your own. Everyone can see what happened. You got frustrated and asked for a ban. Nothing was written that warranted a ban but since Calvo pays to advertise you hid behind a moderator.

How is he a fraud when he proved his point? If you think you're right go take him on where you can't hide behind paid moderators to do your dirty work for you. That makes you the fraud.

[Tooner]

Stage 6. The info is on Stingy's post, but he fails to mention the relationship between Stage 6 (who built the car) and Torrie McPhail (who owns and tunes the car). The car has yet to make any sort of video on the street, or run at any event. I'm told it goes into limp mode at elevated boost.

Good for them pushing the platform forward and trying different things. Maybe you should get them banned for not using a Motec?

[aNinjaneer]

You made Calvo look bad on your own. Everyone can see what happened. You got frustrated and asked for a ban. Nothing was written that warranted a ban but since Calbo pays to advertise you hid behind a moderator.

How is he a fraud when he proved his point? If you think you're right go take him on where you can't hide behind paid moderators to do your dirty work for you. That makes you the fraud.

You seem to be the only person who thinks so. I never asked for a ban. I've never even contact an admin on this site, and I've certainly never paid anyone to do anything for me... You get banned when you break the rules, as Stingy/GenV did. You're either the same person as Stingy, or someone sent by him to come troll, yet again... The only person posting "behind" anything is Joseph Wilk, aka Stingy/GenV posting on boostaddicts, a site which he/you apparently owns.

[Tooner]

You seem to be the only person who thinks so. I never asked for a ban. I've never even contact an admin on this site, and I've certainly never paid anyone to do anything for me... You get banned when you break the rules, as Stingy/GenV did. You're either the same person as Stingy, or someone sent by him to come troll, yet again... The only person posting "behind" anything is Joseph Wilk, aka Stingy/GenV posting on boostaddicts, a site which he/you apparently owns.

Anyone with common sense can read for themselves. Look at how mad you are lol.

Oh no, someone dared to suggest tuning on the stock ECU! OH no! You guys tried this yourselves. If you failed and you couldn't or didn't want to make it work how about you stay out of the way and let others try? Shutting people up for suggesting different approaches is insane.

The only thing broken here was your ego.

[ViperSmith]

lol pathetic

[Tooner]

lol pathetic

Agreed.

[aNinjaneer]

I don't know how many times I have to say that I fully support other shops trying to get HPT to work... You're beating a dead horse, here. But when we tried it AGAIN, and it didn't work AGAIN, and went into detail as to WHY it didn't work for us, you sit there and pretend to know everything because you saw a video of a car one time that was running on HPT and assume that it automatically means it works just fine. You've proven you aren't in the loop, and I'm not sure why you're going out of your way to troll, especially when you don't even seem to own or work on any Vipers... Get a life, dude.

[Tooner]

I don't know how many times I have to say that I fully support other shops trying to get HPT to work... You're beating a dead horse, here. But when we tried it AGAIN, and it didn't work AGAIN, and went into detail as to WHY it didn't work for us, you sit there and pretend to know everything because you saw a video of a car one time that was running on HPT and assume that it automatically means it works just fine. You've proven you aren't in the loop, and I'm not sure why you're going out of your way to troll, especially when you don't even seem to own or work on any Vipers... Get a life, dude.

Look I don't know who you have me confused with but it's quite clear the guy never stated the Motec isn't a great approach. It's you that was and is constantly saying HPT doesn't work. It certainly can work. Does it take more effort? Sure. That doesn't mean it doesn't count.

Reading over the thread it is stated tuning on the stock ECU evolves. Also correct.

Everything he wrote is correct actually.

You sound angry someone suggested doing things other than the way you do them. Kind of nice how it blew up in your face though and how you made a mountain out of a molehill.

[7TH_SIGN]

I have to chime in after reading this as it seems some people have trouble with reading comprehension.

I never read anything that said the stock ECU is superior. What I read was that stock ECU tuning can make big power and that stock ECU tuning on the platform will evolve over time. He proved this correct.

Also that it is more cost effective to do tuning on the stock ECU. Frankly, dismissing stock ECU tuning does a disservice to those of us who would like to learn about all the options available at all price points. Thankfully there are those who get this.

I read the following in that blog article that you or your friend published and saw that you were agreeing with:

Originally Posted by kbaldi29
"Nothing works better than stock Ecu... For most cases why not use something was designed to work with the car in the first place? As long there is access to info and maps for stock computer, You can do whatever you want, sometimes even more than what you need!"

If you think you can do more on a stock ECU over a Motec your smoking some really good stuff.

[ACR]

Here we go. Sticky running his mouth as he did incessantly on M3 boards. Eventually was banned and formed his own on which no one follows.

Advice, ignore. To the best of my knowledge he doesn't own a Viper anyway.

[ViperSmith]

Easy to run your mouth when you don't know what you are taking about. Internet gives a voice to those that deserve it the least.

[rlhay2]

Internet gives a voice to those that deserve it the least.

This is sig worthy! If you don't use it I will!

[Viper Girl]

Nothing was written that warranted a ban but since Calvo pays to advertise you hid behind a moderator.



Sticky - GenV - Tooner..

No snowflake... You were given a 7 day cooling off for trolling our forums... Instead of sending a PM to talk about it... you created a new screen name... Two accounts are against forum rules...

Then as GenV, you were then permabanned for your foul language in this thread directed towards me... This is a family site, language like that doesn't belong here or anywhere else for that matter...

[rlhay2]

You got frustrated and asked for a ban. Nothing was written that warranted...

This is inaccurate. As are many of your suppositions.

I reported the thread. I requested that it be closed.

Obviously, the moderator(s) thought more drastic action was warranted.

[Junkie]

Easy to run your mouth when you don't know what you are taking about. Internet gives a voice to those that deserve it the least.

I have to spread some rep before I give you anymore, but that was awesome!

[Jack B]

I hate to to dis you, but, you have not used HPT for the viper, it is not a full package. I use HPT on a GM car and that is the full package. There are multiple limitations on the viper version and unless something has changed the scanner does not work on the G5. Just a guess, you are either sticky or a someone close to him. This discussion has been beat to death and HPT has not changed, why don't you listen and learn instead of trying to school us.


I have to chime in after reading this as it seems some people have trouble with reading comprehension.

I never read anything that said the stock ECU is superior. What I read was that stock ECU tuning can make big power and that stock ECU tuning on the platform will evolve over time. He proved this correct.

Also that it is more cost effective to do tuning on the stock ECU. Frankly, dismissing stock ECU tuning does a disservice to those of us who would like to learn about all the options available at all price points. Thankfully there are those who get this.

[Steve M]

They fixed the scanner quite a while ago.