Gen V with heads. headers/exhaust, and tune results.

[Greg Good]

Here are some results for a Gen V Viper with bolt-ons + a well done set of ported heads. This car was done for the February 14th Viper Nationals race. Stock, the car made 551 SAE. Headers, pulley, and a good tune netted 601. The car ran 10.48 at that power level. With heads, better mufflers, and a retune, it now makes 651/597 SAE. Not cooled down, heat soaked. The tuner made it look like there was nothing to it. I've heard several horror stories when tuning with HP Tuners on a Gen 5, so I was pleasantly surprised to see the tune go like an LS tune would. The software worked great. Chuck showed me everything he did, and I learned a lot. Thanks Chuck. Thank you to Elie for having on board with this build.



15593

Standard numbers.....668/613

15594


Video of dyno run:


https://youtu.be/J6G6hMGtnlc

At the shift point we're nearly 100 hp better:

15595

[Terry504]

Here are some results for a Gen V Viper with bolt-ons + a well done set of ported heads. This car was done for the February 14th Viper Nationals race. Stock, the car made 551 SAE. Headers, pulley, and a good tune netted 601. The car ran 10.48 at that power level. With heads, better mufflers, and a retune, it now makes 651/597 SAE. The tuner made it like there was nothing to it. I've heard several horror stories when tuning with HP Tuners on a Gen 5, so I was pleasantly surprised to see the tune go like an LS tune would. The software worked great. Chuck showed me everything he did, and I learned a lot. Thanks Chuck. Thank you to Elie for having on board with this build.


https://www.facebook.com/chuckstuning/videos/1095874653779770/?__mref=message_bubble

15593

Nice!!! How much for the heads?

[Junkie]

That's great! Greg have you considered having a set on the shelf and charging a core/return?

Id love no down time.

[TwinVipers]

Great work as always by Greg!

[Revolution]

What Mph did the car run on old setup when it ran 10.48 Greg? Looking forward to seeing the track results :)

[Steve M]

Impressive. I'm also glad to see that people are starting to figure out how to use HPT...it does take some time to figure out what exactly these PCMs are doing, but once you do, it's pretty straightforward.

[Steve M]

...and now that I've watched the video, what are the full details on that exhaust? Love the sound...it's not obnoxiously loud (at least not in the vid), and has a nice tone to it. What brand of headers, cats or no cats? I see it has custom 3.5" mufflers as per the video.

[ViperSmith]

It's like Christmas on this forum

[Tiago]

Amazing.

[dethred]

That's great! Greg have you considered having a set on the shelf and charging a core/return?

Id love no down time.

This.

[7TH_SIGN]

That's great! Greg have you considered having a set on the shelf and charging a core/return?

Id love no down time.

I like where this is going.

[Nine Ball]

Damn Greg. I hope you digitized those ports for an easy CNC program. 651 with a stock cam. Your head porting is legendary status!

Tony

[FLATOUT]

Greg awesome job as always you know I've always been a huge fan of your work. I saw they posted they ported the intake as well, you think there's much to be gained there? I'd love to have you port mine if you think it's worth it. Hell if it will work with the calibration already on my car I'd love for you to go over the port work on my heads.

[ViperTony]

Greg, not surprised with the results. ;) Now I'm even more excited to get my engine back from you. ;) As always, great work!

[Jdmuscle]

Impressive... This maybe that elusive 700whp NA Gen V viper route.

[Greg Good]

I think Elie wants to do a cam. Not sure. It depends on how happy he is with the way it runs at the track.

I would like to get a cam for it. The stock cam is not what we'd usually consider a performance cam. The intake lobe is pretty good. It's 230 @ .050. But the exhaust lobe is very weak. It's 223 @ .050", and it gets worse. It only has .465" lift at the valve. That's not a typo. .465" exhaust lift.

[Greg Good]

...and now that I've watched the video, what are the full details on that exhaust? Love the sound...it's not obnoxiously loud (at least not in the vid), and has a nice tone to it. What brand of headers, cats or no cats? I see it has custom 3.5" mufflers as per the video.

A fabricator made those from scratch. It has a perforated inner liner that is 3.5", an outer shell he rolled out of sheet metal, and some packing in between. They sound really good in person. The headers are 1.750" primary tube from ARH.

[RPM9000]

Greg when you talk about changing the cam is it going to be another variable cam? If so I might be interested in doing this to my GenIV.

[Greg Good]

No, it will be a fixed cam. The stock cam doesn't have enough lobe material on it to regrind it into something decent.

[Steve M]

I think Elie wants to do a cam. Not sure. It depends on how happy he is with the way it runs at the track.

I would like to get a cam for it. The stock cam is not what we'd usually consider a performance cam. The intake lobe is pretty good. It's 230 @ .050. But the exhaust lobe is very weak. It's 223 @ .050", and it gets worse. It only has .465" lift at the valve. That's not a typo. .465" exhaust lift.

No kidding? This is the first time I've ever seen cam specs for the stock cam...that is pretty weak on the exhaust side.

[ViperTony]

No kidding? This is the first time I've ever seen cam specs for the stock cam...that is pretty weak on the exhaust side.

Wow that is small. Compared to my Gen II GG Cam specs below the GenV cam looks tiny:

15603

[Greg Good]

We ran the car today at the Viper Nationals. On the first time trial we had some detonation (the knock sensors were *off* at my direction) so we topped off the half full tank with 104 octane they sell at the track. So it was a 50/50 mix of 93 and 104. Car ran well after that.

The best run was 10.29 @ 135.6. Car with driver weighed 3680 pounds. I think with a lighter wheel package and something done with the gear (the engine spins up so much higher now he was going through in the top of 3rd gear), a Shelby cold air box, and some track tuning (the dynamics on a r ace track are much different than the dyno) we should be able to run 10.20 or possibly teens on straight pump and full weight.

[J TNT]

Great work as always Greg and thanks for sharing ! It would be interesting to see the full potential with a cam ! :)
You make a good point on the tune , like yourself I've heard of a few horror stories and a good tune is worth it's wait in gold !

[Tiago]

Good to see you out there Greg. Look forward to the developments you guys make.

[Viper Specialty]

It's 223 @ .050", and it gets worse. It only has .465" lift at the valve. That's not a typo. .465" exhaust lift.

PM'd

[NoMorZR1]

What are the specs on the Arrow cam sold in the H & C package ? I suspect it's not a real aggressive change from stock.

[mjorgensen]

What are the specs on the Arrow cam sold in the H & C package ? I suspect it's not a real aggressive change from stock.

Intake lobe is 234 duration and 0.617” valve lift
Exhaust Lobe is 242 duration and 0.617” valve lift

[NoMorZR1]

I stand corrected ! Thank you Mark.

[DanH]

I know of Greg's reputation for years within the viper community and I mean no disrespect for what I'm about to ask. How do the heads compare to the arrow one's?
Please pardon my ignorance

[Greg Good]

https://youtu.be/K0h8sj253_U


Video of the 10.29 @ 136.5 run.

[99RT10]

http://youtu.be/K0h8sj253_U


Video of the 10.29 @ 136.5 run.

That kicks ass


http://youtu.be/K0h8sj253_U

[Greg Good]

Thanks Mike. I'm not very computer literate.

[Greg Good]

I'm about to ask. How do the heads compare to the arrow one's?



They're different. Every head porter does things his own way. I don't like to get into the "my stuff is better than everyone else's" kind of talk. You'd just have to do your own research and compare times from different cars, taking into mind all of the differences between the builds.

[socal]

Can you bump compression by shaving the heads without valve clearance issues?

[Greg Good]

I milled these heads a little, and with the stock cam it still had over .150" intake clearance. The exhaust was safe as well.

[ViperTony]

They're different. Every head porter does things his own way. I don't like to get into the "my stuff is better than everyone else's" kind of talk. You'd just have to do your own research and compare times from different cars, taking into mind all of the differences between the builds.

In all of the years I've known and worked with Greg I have yet to hear him knock anyone. You are one honest and humble SOB my friend. ;)

[Junkie]

X2

Not only is Greg one of the best in the business. But he'll hang out in the Pitts and socialize like a normal dude. Not many people with that much talent and experience, carry themselves as well as he does.

[Blue TiTEN]

Greg is the best in the business and a class act...glad he's on my side!

[v10tt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGvEePHrMlo

CAR HAS WICKED TRAPS, 139 MPH AT 11:44 MARKER.

(2) RACES AGAINST VIPER EXCHANGE H/C CAR AT 43:47 AND 46:55

[Greg Good]

136.5 was our best mph that day N/A. 139 would have been with the juice on. Thanks for the link. I'll watch it later.

[Blue TiTEN]

18084

18085

18086


Still Stock Camshaft!!!!

[v10tt]

very impressive!
Can you give details on the Air box/intake construction?

[Snakebit10]

Wow that's not far off the H/C car. Congrats.

[7TH_SIGN]

Excellent numbers!

[Blue TiTEN]

Airbox is something we built with larger diameter intake tubes and velocity stacks inside the box...its fully insulated to keep the IATs down as much as possible

[parabs]

And then I stumble upon this thread!

Greg, or anyone else for that matter, would the expectation that GG ported heads such as these in th OP as well as exhaust and bolt ons would perform similar on the Arrow tune? I’m not interested I’m HP Tuners, no one local and I don’t hav the time to get my head into it, and remote tuning sucks so I’m sticking with my arrow controller no matter what.

[ViperC]

Spinning to 7k on a stock bottom end?

[sadil]

What happened to this CAI?

[Vipes]

66X rwhp with the stock cam is damn impressive! Subscribed for results with a custom cam...

[Arizona Vipers]

Airbox is something we built with larger diameter intake tubes and velocity stacks inside the box...its fully insulated to keep the IATs down as much as possible

Who built that airbox? Wanna build me one? :)

[Reaper]

I wonder what the results would be if you got the Arrow heads installed, just not the cam, and get the headers/exhaust of your choice. I guess the Arrow pcm would run this setup fine and you wouldnt need the reflash for the fixed cam function. Viper Exchange claims 100 hp gain with heads/cam/headers/exhaust. I wonder how much of that gain is heads and how much is cam. We know headers/exhaust is roughly 30 of that. The heads have bigger valves and ported for about 10% more cfm. Just thinking out loud tonight after reading this thread.

[Anton28]

I was thinking the same thing. I love the VVT deceleration pop that you get with the Variable cam and the Arrow controller. Greg any updates on your set up? Availabe for purchase?

[8400cc]

Any chance for some info on this custom air box ? Any chance this will be offered to public ?

[Jack B]

I was thinking the same thing. I love the VVT deceleration pop that you get with the Variable cam and the Arrow controller. Greg any updates on your set up? Availabe for purchase?

That pop is the tune, G2's sounded the same.

[Anton28]

So I spoke with Greg. Will be sending him my heads as soon as I get the go ahead. He is waiting for his cnc machine to arrive. Need to figure out who will remove my heads and do the install ones they come back here localy. Also who and how will I tune this thing? I want to retain my Arrow tune as I’m keeping the stock cam for the deceleration pop.

[Jack B]

So I spoke with Greg. Will be sending him my heads as soon as I get the go ahead. He is waiting for his cnc machine to arrive. Need to figure out who will remove my heads and do the install ones they come back here localy. Also who and how will I tune this thing? I want to retain my Arrow tune as I’m keeping the stock cam for the deceleration pop.

You have a problem, it is either HPT or a complete stand-alone pcm. Get all those ducks in a line before lighting the fuse.

[Steve M]

Your car should run just fine on the Arrow canned tune, even with ported heads. Many Gen 4 guys ran full bolt-ons including ported heads with just the Mopar PCM...HPTuners didn't come to market until years later.

[v10tt]

So I spoke with Greg. Will be sending him my heads as soon as I get the go ahead. He is waiting for his cnc machine to arrive. Need to figure out who will remove my heads and do the install ones they come back here localy. Also who and how will I tune this thing? I want to retain my Arrow tune as I’m keeping the stock cam for the deceleration pop.
Get a custom Tune if you want to extract max power out of the set up, Ken from Palm Beach Dyno is your man, has done a few HC, a 9.0L and bolt on Vipers with great results. He is on face book. He can do remote tuning.

[JohnnyH]

I was thinking the same thing. I love the VVT deceleration pop that you get with the Variable cam and the Arrow controller. Greg any updates on your set up? Availabe for purchase?

Anton28, I have a set of GG heads and port matched intake manifold for sale if you’re interested.

[Stealth78]

Your car should run just fine on the Arrow canned tune, even with ported heads. Many Gen 4 guys ran full bolt-ons including ported heads with just the Mopar PCM...HPTuners didn't come to market until years later.

Steve, I'm not one to second guess you but when did Arrow release the Arrow Stage I? I am almost certain HPT was available for the GenIV in 2014.

[Jack B]

Steve, I'm not one to second guess you but when did Arrow release the Arrow Stage I? I am almost certain HPT was available for the GenIV in 2014.

I believe I purchased hpt at the end of 14 (or early 15). The point I was trying to make, why pull the heads and not get a tune that extracts all the potential hp.

[Steve M]

Steve, I'm not one to second guess you but when did Arrow release the Arrow Stage I? I am almost certain HPT was available for the GenIV in 2014.

That's about right on the timeline...HPTuners beat Arrow to market by a couple months or so IIRC, but the Mopar PCM was available for the Gen 4 many years prior to that. The Arrow recalibration to that PCM involved some minor tweaking, but the basic premise is the same - all are canned tunes, whether it is for the Gen 4 or Gen 5 (which are essentially the same motor). Guys were running ported heads with the basic Mopar PCM on Gen 4s with no issues for many years. Was it ideal? Probably not, but it was close enough. That's the beauty of having MAF-based fueling...as long as the MAF curves are reasonable, providing additional airflow to the engine will be read and adjusted for accordingly. In my experience, intake mods drive the WOT AFR rich, and exhaust mods drive it lean. I've seen plenty of before/after dynos with widebands for various mods that seem to back that up as well. In this case, the heads should drive the car to the rich end of things, which is safer than going the other way. How much? Can't say, and you wouldn't know unless you logged some wideband O2 sensor data from a few 4th gear WOT pulls to see what it was doing. Most Viper owners don't really care, and it isn't like you can really change the Arrow calibration - I mean, you can, but there are only two ways to do that:

1. Send it to Arrow to have them recalibrate it (unlikely)
2. Overwrite it with HPTuners, but you'll be starting from a stock calibration if you do that.

Now to Jack's point...


I believe I purchased hpt at the end of 14 (or early 15). The point I was trying to make, why pull the heads and not get a tune that extracts all the potential hp.

Will it be ideal? Probably not...you won't get every last HP out of this mod without a custom tune, but it doesn't sound like Anton wants to go that route. It should run though, and I'd doubt it'll cause any trouble with the Arrow calibration.

[Anton28]

That's about right on the timeline...HPTuners beat Arrow to market by a couple months or so IIRC, but the Mopar PCM was available for the Gen 4 many years prior to that. The Arrow recalibration to that PCM involved some minor tweaking, but the basic premise is the same - all are canned tunes, whether it is for the Gen 4 or Gen 5 (which are essentially the same motor). Guys were running ported heads with the basic Mopar PCM on Gen 4s with no issues for many years. Was it ideal? Probably not, but it was close enough. That's the beauty of having MAF-based fueling...as long as the MAF curves are reasonable, providing additional airflow to the engine will be read and adjusted for accordingly. In my experience, intake mods drive the WOT AFR rich, and exhaust mods drive it lean. I've seen plenty of before/after dynos with widebands for various mods that seem to back that up as well. In this case, the heads should drive the car to the rich end of things, which is safer than going the other way. How much? Can't say, and you wouldn't know unless you logged some wideband O2 sensor data from a few 4th gear WOT pulls to see what it was doing. Most Viper owners don't really care, and it isn't like you can really change the Arrow calibration - I mean, you can, but there are only two ways to do that:

1. Send it to Arrow to have them recalibrate it (unlikely)
2. Overwrite it with HPTuners, but you'll be starting from a stock calibration if you do that.

Now to Jack's point...



Will it be ideal? Probably not...you won't get every last HP out of this mod without a custom tune, but it doesn't sound like Anton wants to go that route. It should run though, and I'd doubt it'll cause any trouble with the Arrow calibration.

Steve thank you for the extremely informative post! Knowing that I can run my Arrow PCM tune is a great thing. It would be nice if Arrow could reflash it but if I must go with HP tunner I will, eventually. Has anyone ever tried to see if Arrow would reflash their ECU?

Logging a few runs with a wideband is a great idea. I would be interested to see the results when running just the Arrow pcm and these heads.

If all else fails, it's going to AC Performance for a HP dyno tune.......

[Jack B]

That's about right on the timeline...HPTuners beat Arrow to market by a couple months or so IIRC, but the Mopar PCM was available for the Gen 4 many years prior to that. The Arrow recalibration to that PCM involved some minor tweaking, but the basic premise is the same - all are canned tunes, whether it is for the Gen 4 or Gen 5 (which are essentially the same motor). Guys were running ported heads with the basic Mopar PCM on Gen 4s with no issues for many years. Was it ideal? Probably not, but it was close enough. That's the beauty of having MAF-based fueling...as long as the MAF curves are reasonable, providing additional airflow to the engine will be read and adjusted for accordingly. In my experience, intake mods drive the WOT AFR rich, and exhaust mods drive it lean. I've seen plenty of before/after dynos with widebands for various mods that seem to back that up as well. In this case, the heads should drive the car to the rich end of things, which is safer than going the other way. How much? Can't say, and you wouldn't know unless you logged some wideband O2 sensor data from a few 4th gear WOT pulls to see what it was doing. Most Viper owners don't really care, and it isn't like you can really change the Arrow calibration - I mean, you can, but there are only two ways to do that:

1. Send it to Arrow to have them recalibrate it (unlikely)
2. Overwrite it with HPTuners, but you'll be starting from a stock calibration if you do that.

Now to Jack's point...



Will it be ideal? Probably not...you won't get every last HP out of this mod without a custom tune, but it doesn't sound like Anton wants to go that route. It should run though, and I'd doubt it'll cause any trouble with the Arrow calibration.

Simple bolt-on mods are one thing, however, if you are going through the trouble of removing the top of the engine and spending 4-5K on a set of ported heads, I would think you want a tune that fits the combination. The problem with the arrow tune, it is already leaning the WOT AF (stock pcm runs rich), put a good set of heads on the car and it should lean out even more.

Simple bolt-ons, who cares (Arrow flash is fine), I think the heads are a different issue.

[cashcorn]

Great choice Anton, Todd knows what to do. Call him before doing your heads. Todd has options for viper owners! Good luck. Greg

[Scot@Prefix]

Steve thank you for the extremely informative post! Knowing that I can run my Arrow PCM tune is a great thing. It would be nice if Arrow could reflash it but if I must go with HP tunner I will, eventually. Has anyone ever tried to see if Arrow would reflash their ECU?

Logging a few runs with a wideband is a great idea. I would be interested to see the results when running just the Arrow pcm and these heads.

If all else fails, it's going to AC Performance for a HP dyno tune.......

Yes we reflash ECU all the time.
The Mopar PCM for the gen IV cars was calibrated and provided by Arrow. Same thing as the PCM through Mopar for the gen 5 cars.


Simple bolt-on mods are one thing, however, if you are going through the trouble of removing the top of the engine and spending 4-5K on a set of ported heads, I would think you want a tune that fits the combination. The problem with the arrow tune, it is already leaning the WOT AF (stock pcm runs rich), put a good set of heads on the car and it should lean out even more.

Simple bolt-ons, who cares (Arrow flash is fine), I think the heads are a different issue.

If the cam is stock the Arrow controller will be just fine. Even with the increased airflow of the heads the ECU can compensate via the MAF sensors. If you modify the intake tubes or air filter it disturbs the air flow around the MAF sensors and can cause havoc.

[Anton28]

Yes we reflash ECU all the time.
The Mopar PCM for the gen IV cars was calibrated and provided by Arrow. Same thing as the PCM through Mopar for the gen 5 cars.



If the cam is stock the Arrow controller will be just fine. Even with the increased airflow of the heads the ECU can compensate via the MAF sensors. If you modify the intake tubes or air filter it disturbs the air flow around the MAF sensors and can cause havoc.

Scott are you able to reflash my ECU to accommodate the head swap?

[v10tt]

Has anybody done a before/after GEN V ported intake on the dyno?, flow bench?
I know once ported a lot of material comes out of the composite stock intake. However I would like to know if there are any real world gains that merit this mod.
thanks.

[imzoomintoo]

So I spoke with Greg. Will be sending him my heads as soon as I get the go ahead. He is waiting for his cnc machine to arrive. Need to figure out who will remove my heads and do the install ones they come back here localy. Also who and how will I tune this thing? I want to retain my Arrow tune as I’m keeping the stock cam for the deceleration pop.

Is the deceleration pop decreased after a heads cam instal with a HP tune?

[SilveRT8]

If you modify the intake tubes or air filter it disturbs the air flow around the MAF sensors and can cause havoc.

Hi Scot,
I have smooth tubes and a K&N panel filter, is this OK or should I go back to the stock tubes and filter ?

[element155]

pretty sure he's referring to porting of box and maf

[Jack B]

pretty sure he's referring to porting of box and maf

They do not like the KN filter

[element155]

They do not like the KN filter

i think its more the filter oil then the kn filter itself cause in theory you can run no filter and have it be ok

[Jack B]

i think its more the filter oil then the kn filter itself cause in theory you can run no filter and have it be ok

It is the filter, they feel it changes the way the maf sensor interprets the air flow. I just had this discussion with Prefix last week.

[nwa_viper]

I also have a K&N drop in filter, smooth tubes, and Arrow PCM. I’ve had no issues.

[Jack B]

I also have a K&N drop in filter, smooth tubes, and Arrow PCM. I’ve had no issues.

This is from a direct discission with both Winkles and Rickford, the KN filter alters the MAF response. I have also run the same filter. In the discussion it was pointed out that the altered MAF output would impact a tuned car more than a stock car.The reason is the stock tune is very rich.

I am guessing Scot will comment. If you search under Scot's posts, this view has been stated before.

[SilveRT8]

This is from a direct discission with both Winkles and Rickford, the KN filter alters the MAF response. I have also run the same filter. In the discussion it was pointed out that the altered MAF output would impact a tuned car more than a stock car.The reason is the stock tune is very rich.

I am guessing Scot will comment. If you search under Scot's posts, this view has been stated before.

Thanks for the feedback Jack, you always give very good advice !
I'll just go back to the stock filter and tubes and be done with it.

[nwa_viper]

I’d like to hear Scot’s comment on this. The car has run great for several thousand miles like this, I’ve seen no indication of issues.

[parabs]

So I spoke with Greg. Will be sending him my heads as soon as I get the go ahead. He is waiting for his cnc machine to arrive. Need to figure out who will remove my heads and do the install ones they come back here localy. Also who and how will I tune this thing? I want to retain my Arrow tune as I’m keeping the stock cam for the deceleration pop.

Keep us posted Anton, I’m very interested to see your results!

[Old School]

But the exhaust lobe is very weak. It's 223 @ .050", and it gets worse. It only has .465" lift at the valve.

Seems like the exhaust would be a good candidate for a higher ratio rocker arm, maybe adapt a 1.8 ratio from a Z06.