My engine took a dump on the track

[G37Sam]

Guess it was just a matter of time. I checked my oil level around a month ago and it seemed fine. Ironically, Dodge called me to replace the engine and I postponed it a little to have one last track day. She fought strong for two sessions, took a dump on the third. She's at the dealer now getting 5 extra ponies so I'm not complaining :drive:

I guess it can't be stressed enough, keep an eye on your oil levels.

(forgive the quality, a potato was used to shoot this video)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROQGWPQFWaY

[swexlin]

I remember you posting recently that they were replacing your engine based on some VIN list, but that it hadn't failed yet. Something that none of us here in the US had heard of?

Now, when you say you checked the oil level, and it "seemed fine", do you mean it was in the "safe" hashmark range on the dipstick? Did you have any symptoms prior to the day it failed, low oil pressure, rough running, any thing?

[G37Sam]

I remember you posting recently that they were replacing your engine based on some VIN list, but that it hadn't failed yet. Something that none of us here in the US had heard of?

Given that maybe a total of 10 Vipers were sold here, they decided to take proactive measures on "affected" VINs if I'm not mistaken. They ocean ship these engines and last thing you want is a Viper customer waiting for 3 months on an engine. You guys are practically in the same country as these engines, so it doesn't take long to have an engine sent to you in case of failure.


Now, when you say you checked the oil level, and it "seemed fine", do you mean it was in the "safe" hashmark range on the dipstick? Did you have any symptoms prior to the day it failed, low oil pressure, rough running, any thing?

Yes, it was just above the safe mark. No symptoms that I was aware of.

[swexlin]

Thank you for the quick response. So, your oil level was fine, so we know that it wasn't low oil that caused the failure.

[supersnake]

With the issues that people have had with there engines and we know they use a little Oil, Like checking your Oil a MONTH AGO, Come on man, Really, How long does it take to open the hood and pull the stick!!!

[G37Sam]

Thank you for the quick response. So, your oil level was fine, so we know that it wasn't low oil that caused the failure.

It was definitely low oil level, I checked the oil after the incident and it was well below the safe hashmark.

[swexlin]

It was definitely low oil level, I checked the oil after the incident and it was well below the safe hashmark.

How many miles on the car now (I think you bought it with about 2500?) And how many miles in the month since you check? It couldn't have used that much? No leaks, nothing? Very bizarre.

I check my oil every 100 miles or so. Even keep a log with my mileage.

[G37Sam]

How many miles on the car now (I think you bought it with about 2500?) And how many miles in the month since you check? It couldn't have used that much? No leaks, nothing? Very bizarre.

3000 km's when bought, 20,000 km's now. Could've been low before the track night I didn't check to be honest.

[swexlin]

3000 km's when bought, 20,000 km's now. Could've been low before the track night I didn't check to be honest.

Thanks, that's a lot of driving! So, if I did my math right, you have about 12,400 miles on the car, which is the highest-mileage failure I think I've read about here. I would have thought at that mileage you would have been past the danger zone.

Please keep us posted.

[G37Sam]

With the issues that people have had with there engines and we know they use a little Oil, Like checking your Oil a MONTH AGO, Come on man, Really, How long does it take to open the hood and pull the stick!!!

You're right. I don't daily drive the car though and when they told me the engine was going to be replaced anyways I guess I stopped caring.

[swexlin]

You're right. I don't daily drive the car though and when they told me the engine was going to be replaced anyways I guess I stopped caring.

What I want to know is, why aren't they providing this retroactive engine replacement to owners here in the US and Canada? Obviously, Chrysler corporate does know what is happening, does have a "list".....

[ACRucrazy]

Man....

[ViperSmith]

What I want to know is, why aren't they providing this retroactive engine replacement to owners here in the US and Canada? Obviously, Chrysler corporate does know what is happening, does have a "list".....

Simple answer, it ain't cheap!

[swexlin]

Simple answer, it ain't cheap!

Agreed, but if they're doing it overseas, they should do it here. And this car was higher mileage. If there is a "list", it may come back to haunt them someday if some engines pop after warranty is up, and someone with enough money to hire the right attorney wants to push the issue.

I know, I know, I'm a conspiracy theorist, lol! Seriously though, Porsche did the right thing, I think Dodge should as well. Not just wait until they go. The ones on the "list' should get replaced, others, only if they go of course.

[Y'orange_UAE]

So sample the problem is not from the factory as i just now fixed the first engine for one of my friend and the second engine is still waiting for the parts from the dealer to arrive so that i can fix the second engine. The weakest point is the connecting rod bearing as both engines have 3 & 4 worn bearings.

What i did after disassembling the engine i took the oil pan and filled it with 10L of oil and still did not reach the top of the oil pan and i have added one more liter of oil and still then i added another liter of oil and just reached the top of the oil pan. Therefore, i can say 12L of oil will keep your Viper engine in the safe side even if you missed checking your oil level for 2,000km.

Here's some pictures of both engine blown connecting rod bearings:

14703

14704

14705

14706

14707

[swexlin]

Interesting information, thank. However 12L (which is 12.72 qts) seems like a major overfill, considering capacity per the manual is 11 qts (10.38 L). Wouldn't this cause foaming issues? Also, this means that if you are in the "safe" range on the dipstick, you really aren't safe?

[ViperJon]

I check mine religiously and at the last fill could NOT get more than 10-1/2 quarts in, 11 would have overfilled.
It hasn't budged from there since. No way would 12 go in.

[swexlin]

No way would 12 go in.

I hear that a lot from women! Oh wait, we're talking about oil......

Seriously, Y'Orange, are you a Viper tech? So you're actually rebuilding these engines? Just WTF is going on with the mighty V10?

[7TH_SIGN]

Passenger when the motor blows: "Shu hal soowt?" (What's that sound?)

That my friend is the sound of death. Lol

Well at least your getting a new motor for free. I check my oil before every startup and that's for around the town driving. If I was racing it is be checking before after and inbetween. I haven't had to add any oil after the car hit 500 miles. Also on the first oil change, I could only get 10.5 quarts in.

Y'orange_UAE, are you blaming the failure on the connecting rod or lack of oil or both.


Im curious about his "VIN list".

[swexlin]

I think he mentioned the rod bearings. But the question is, why are they failing: design, lack of oil, something else?

[ViperSmith]

oil is irrelevant to the failures in these cars.

if it were as simple as oil, it would be easy for dodge to mitigate.

[Lawrenzo]

Dan Cragin had mentioned this in a previous post-

Many times long sitting leftover cars have been started numerous times and moved, contaminating the fuel, moisture builds up and causes corrosion. This can cause the bearings to fail.

[Vprbite]

I thought the previous gens required 12 qts. I would be surprised if these took less.

This issue intrigues me greatly. Hough I don't have a gen v yet.

[ViperJon]

Dan Cragin had mentioned this in a previous post-

Many times long sitting leftover cars have been started numerous times and moved, contaminating the fuel, moisture builds up and causes corrosion. This can cause the bearings to fail.

Who is talking exclusively about long sitting leftovers? This issue has affected brand new cars, 2013's and 2014's of all types. Some with 4 miles on them, some with 4000. That's the damnable part of it there is no "apparent" rhyme or reason, although I'm sure Dodge knows and also knows the run of cars effected.

[7TH_SIGN]

Who is talking exclusively about long sitting leftovers? This issue has affected brand new cars, 2013's and 2014's of all types. Some with 4 miles on them, some with 4000. That's the damnable part of it there is no "apparent" rhyme or reason, although I'm sure Dodge knows and also knows the run of cars effected.

Exactly. X2

[swexlin]

Exactly. X2

Yep, X3, and the VIN list that the OP mentioned proves it, in my eyes. And while the sky is not falling, it is a real and serious issue with these cars. Especially since G37's car here is the highest mileage one I've read about on these forums that has failed.

[01sapphirebob]

I thought the previous gens required 12 qts. I would be surprised if these took less.

This issue intrigues me greatly. Hough I don't have a gen v yet.

Pretty sure its always been 10. My GEN IV takes 11.

[ViperTony]

It's a pandemic. A damn Greek tragedy. All is lost. The internets have spoken.

[supersnake]

I've been a mechanic for 40 years and it's funny, I've found that if there is no oil in the engine when it is running. Things come a part very quickly. Saying oil is irrevelant is a Stupid comment. Go drain your oil and see how long it lasts. QUOTE=ViperSmith;187734]oil is irrelevant to the failures in these cars.

if it were as simple as oil, it would be easy for dodge to mitigate.[/QUOTE]

[ViperSmith]

I've been a mechanic for 40 years and it's funny, I've found that if there is no oil in the engine when it is running. Things come a part very quickly. Saying oil is irrevelant is a Stupid comment. Go drain your oil and see how long it lasts.

There is no proof this is an oil related issue at all, other than conjecture by people who think it is.

It has been stated over and over this is due to debris from the manufacturing process. So again, oil levels are irrelevant to these failures.

[Policy Limits]

2.5 years of power train warranty remain on mine. 6,900 Miles so I thought I was in the clear...until I read this. Crappers...

[supersnake]

Well I beg to differ your comment. Yes on other posts they have found material. But on this particular post it is stated the oil level was below the safe mark. Dodge did not put the marks on the dipstick as a suggestion. It is a engineered level so that in all applications it is the correct amount for all applications that the car is put through. So with a low level combined with high g forces applied in a track application. The engine is starved for lubrication. Possibly cruising on the highway you might get away with it. But in higher performance applications all fluids should be to the top of the safe zone

[Aspirations57]

Whats the problem ? OP didnt give a shit about checking for oil on a car he tracks since he knows he is going to get a replacement, enigine expires..:t0135:

[Jack B]

The G5 takes 10.5 to 11 qts, that is not debatable. If you put 12.5 qts into a G5 you are asking for trouble.



I thought the previous gens required 12 qts. I would be surprised if these took less.

This issue intrigues me greatly. Hough I don't have a gen v yet.

[Jack B]

Not this one!


There is no proof this is an oil related issue at all, other than conjecture by people who think it is.

It has been stated over and over this is due to debris from the manufacturing process. So again, oil levels are irrelevant to these failures.

[TrackAire]

G37Sam,

What does not make sense is why does the oil pressure stays at 0 psi??? Lets assume that your car is low on oil and because of high G's forces the engine loses oil pressure and fries a bearing (even though it went to 0 psi on a straightaway). Even with the extra clearance on a damaged bearing or bearings, I am willing to bet there would still be some oil pressure eventually. Why does the gauge stay at 0 psi??...this does not make sense that it is a lack of oil issue since you didn't throw a rod out the pan or side of the block where you lost your engines oil volume. It sounds more like a failed oil pump or something in the lubrication system that stops all oil flow and pressure.

I've lost bearings on Chevy motors before and the oil pressure never went to 0 psi and stayed there even with the engine knocking like crazy.

Sorry for your engine problems, but oil or lack of oil is not the culprit in my opinion. There is an issue with these motors, who knows if Dodge will ever disclose what the problem is. Many have rumored that it is a parts defect and not the owners fault in any way.

[Whitemamba]

I may be way off on this but I agree with Trackaire. The oil level pressure went to 0 psi on the straight away. Also the Gen 5 uses a swing arm oil pickup designed to counter hard turns. There should still be some kind of oil pressure unless the oil pump died. Like I said, I may be totally out in left field, wouldn't be the first time and definitely won't be the last.

Oil system
The 8.4-liter V-10 cast-aluminum oil pan is fitted with special baffles, channels, and scrapers to funnel engine oil back into the sump, and serves as a structural component to reduce powertrain bending.

A unique, race-proven swinging arm oil pickup moves with relationship to G-forces encountered in tight-track turning conditions, acceleration and braking conditions. Exclusive to the Viper, the swinging pickup moves within the oil pan to ensure that the maximum amount of oil is available to the engine without any losses due to side-to-side sloshing in the pan.

A nice description of the Gen 5 oil system:

ref: http://www.allpar.com/cars/viper/2013-viper-power.html


A single gerotor oil pump provides the pressure for the oiling system and is directly driven off the crankshaft. The engine oil cooler is standard.

Oil change intervals are recommended at 6,000 miles, using Pennzoil 0W40 synthetic motor oil only. The crankcase capacity with filter change is 10.5 quarts. A special SRT-designed oil filter is needed.

[ellowviper]

Well those rods and crank journal got pretty damn'd HOT...and yet the adjacent rods/journals were just fine...right?. Several things come to mind for me.
1. Too tight of rod bearing clearance on #3/4. Unlikely that the journals are that far off since these journals are all CNC machined to exact tolerances...but who knows what QC goes into the tooling process or specifically, QC on the rod bearing dimensional tolerances. Do they physically check rod bearing clearances or just measure rotating assembly torque to "sense" that there is the right rotational friction that proper clearances would indicate? Makes me wonder. Mahl engineered and grinds the cam and supplies the bearings if I'm not mistaken.
2. Main bearings and other rods were all fine...right? So the oiling system and oil level is a non-factor IMO.

So in my book, there is something askew in a manufactured 'lot' of rod bearings that were used in VIN XXXYYYZZZZ....and Chrysler knows it. Finally, have all these failures been on #3/4 rod bearings? Or on others as well...That would be a good data point.

[Atlas]

Finally, have all these failures been on #3/4 rod bearings? Or on others as well...That would be a good data point.[/QUOTE]

Mine was #1 bearing. My new motor has 700 miles on it, all is well. But the more I keep seeing these stuff, the more I get concerned nothing has been solved.

[7TH_SIGN]

All I wish Chrysler would do is simply clarify the issue and to notify all those affected by whatever means... email or letters.

[ViperSmith]

Not this one!
Gotta agree with TrackAire here. More to this one then the dipstick being below the hashes.

[supersnake]

Watched the Video again and it looks to me that when he released the gas, the Oil Pressure come up to 1 KPA which is about 14 PSI. Not near enough but it appears the pump was still trying to pump what ever oil was in it

[ACRucrazy]

Mine was #1 bearing. My new motor has 700 miles on it, all is well. But the more I keep seeing these stuff, the more I get concerned nothing has been solved.

I'm not sure anyone's replaced motor has failed yet. So I done see the concern.

[Fatboy 18]

All I wish Chrysler would do is simply clarify the issue and to notify all those affected by whatever means... email or letters.It can't do that as the Corvette forum would go into overload :D

On a more serious note: have any of the Engine engineers who pull these engines apart for HP mods spotted any design defects that could cause the problems and improved anything with aftermarket parts?

Example, are there better designed and quality bearings out there that owners could fit?

There was an issue with Metal shavings in the Oil pumps on some early engines but these GenV engines should not be having that problem?

Have Arrow managed to find anything?

What happens to the swapped out engines, do they go straight back to Dodge or Arrow? Who strips them down to identify the issues?

[ViperJon]

Good luck getting a definitive answer to any of those questions Fatboy.
Dodge hasn't even issued a service warning bulletin regarding the grossly excessive burning of oil in some Gen V motors.

[ellowviper]

Our Secretary had a fairly new Honda Accord with an extended warrantee and all that....well, her engine grenade'd at somewhere around 80K miles. The dealer processed the claim and some Company reps flew into Tampa to inspect the engine, boxed it up, and shipped it back to Japan. The Service manager told our Secretary that the Honda Techs wanted to tear into the engine to see what had caused the failure. It definitely wasn't abnormal wear and tear since she's a middle-aged single lady that had all the scheduled service work done at the dealership like clockwork. She knew I was a bit of a gear head so she told me all about it and asked me what I thought.

[Coloviper]

Well simple logic is that the block and general arrangement is not much different than previous GEN. This GEN V had new forged crank and forged pistons which differed from previous years. Clearly some batches were not up to spec. Manufactured parts, it can happen. If they have a batch list, then they can trace it to a VIN as it is an audit able process. If some of those parts are bad, those explain using excessive oil. It's not like the GEN V engine is a whole new design.

[v10enomous]

4,500 miles on mine now. The last oil change I did was at 1,400 when I took it out of storage in March. I had to add one quart in 3,100 miles. I check the oil before and after each drive.

I have a 2007 Camry that I bought new that my daughter drives now and it's been using 1 quart every 1,000 miles since new I assume although I only discovered it when it got low enough for the light to come on at 26,000 miles. I got a recall notice for a known issue when the car had 145,000 miles and now the car has 165,000 miles. They did a consumption test and in my opinion they rigged it so they wouldn't have to replace the engine. If it can happen with a Toyota Camry, it can happen with any car.

http://www.camryforums.com/forum/general-tech-8/first-post-hello-2007-oil-consumption-issue-50156/

[swexlin]

4,500 miles on mine now. The last oil change I did was at 1,400 when I took it out of storage in March. I had to add one quart in 3,100 miles. I check the oil before and after each drive.

I have a 2007 Camry that I bought new that my daughter drives now and it's been using 1 quart every 1,000 miles since new I assume although I only discovered it when it got low enough for the light to come on at 26,000 miles. I got a recall notice for a known issue when the car had 145,000 miles and now the car has 165,000 miles. They did a consumption test and in my opinion they rigged it so they wouldn't have to replace the engine. If it can happen with a Toyota Camry, it can happen with any car.

http://www.camryforums.com/forum/general-tech-8/first-post-hello-2007-oil-consumption-issue-50156/

Charlie, not to hijack but that Camry thread is interesting. (Who knew there were "Camry Enthusiasts?) At any rate, seeing the dealer BS noted over there, it seems that dealer BS is dealer BS, no matter what the brand!!

[DLA]

The best I have ever had is a 2012 Boss 302 engine. Coming thru T1 at Hallet an oil line popped. The engine ran for 7 seconds with 0 oil pressure while I slide through the oil into the grass. That engine has been raced in American Iron and other track events now for 3 years. It still hasn't failed.
The oil that was in the engine prior to popping the oil line, was Joe Gibbs high Zinc oil.

[KB Viper]

my last 14 srt had engine failure at 4500 at a track in socal. i checked the oil mins before the session started, the car was warm and the oil level was at the top of the hash mark. after my motor let go my gauge was still reading pressure and I remember checking the oil afterward and it was lower than when i started but still reading on the dip stick. i had Chrysler buy it back as a lemon after it sat a dealer for 62 days before the motor arrived. i too don't believe low oil is the issue and my car was a 14 that was bought May of 14, the dealer only had the car on the lot for 6 months, they said it arrived in Dec, which is not a long time for a car to sit.

[ViperGeorge]

Since Chrysler isn't saying maybe we should have a sticky with the VINs from the cars that lost engines. This might tell us if there is a pattern. Would people post their VINs if we had such a thread or would they worry about that?

[donk_316]

Watched the Video again and it looks to me that when he released the gas, the Oil Pressure come up to 1 KPA which is about 14 PSI. Not near enough but it appears the pump was still trying to pump what ever oil was in it

100 kPa is 14.5 psi. 1 kPa is 0.145 psi. Sorry dude, I had to. In case people are reading this and think his oil pressure jumped upped 14psi while off the throttle.

[swexlin]

Since Chrysler isn't saying maybe we should have a sticky with the VINs from the cars that lost engines. This might tell us if there is a pattern. Would people post their VINs if we had such a thread or would they worry about that?

I think this is a good idea. People who have lost engines could voluntarily post the VIN. Unless there is some legal issue with this.

[ViperSmith]

Since Chrysler isn't saying maybe we should have a sticky with the VINs from the cars that lost engines. This might tell us if there is a pattern. Would people post their VINs if we had such a thread or would they worry about that?

VIN maybe useless, I think build date would be more critical, since VINs can be all over the place.

[ViperGeorge]

VIN maybe useless, I think build date would be more critical, since VINs can be all over the place.

We should ask for both but how do you find out what the build date is? I have no idea what mine are.

[Fatboy 18]

VIN maybe useless, I think build date would be more critical, since VINs can be all over the place.

You would need Engine Build date, not car build date, is there an engine build number date? Engine numbers are the same as the Vin numbers aren't they?

[ViperSmith]

We should ask for both but how do you find out what the build date is? I have no idea what mine are.

ViperJeff has it listed:

2013
http://www.vipertruckregistry.com/Viper%20Lists/2013%20Vipers.html
2014
http://www.vipertruckregistry.com/Viper%20Lists/2014%20Vipers.html

[ViperGeorge]

You would need Engine Build date, not car build date, is there an engine build number date? Engine numbers are the same as the Vin numbers aren't they?

I would think the engine is built several weeks before the car but I wouldn't think a particular engine sat around very long before being put in a car.

[swexlin]

Pete, car build date (MMDDHH) is on your door sticker. As to when the engine was built, who knows? They are build, and then put on a shelf, I imagine, until it's time to put it in a car down the line.

[supersnake]

100 kPa is 14.5 psi. 1 kPa is 0.145 psi. Sorry dude, I had to. In case people are reading this and think his oil pressure jumped upped 14psi while off the throttle.

I realize what the conversion is, but the Viper measurement is in 100 KPA but shows 1 which is 14.5 PSI My car cruising is at 5 Which is 72.5PSI Idle is at 3 which is 43.5 PSI

[Strykerviper2014]

My oil pressure rose to the red once when I was driving full throttle, I was hitting 140-150 mph at the time, anyone ever have that issue and what would cause that?, I never had an issue since tho

[Fatboy 18]

I would think the engine is built several weeks before the car but I wouldn't think a particular engine sat around very long before being put in a car.

Bunch of them sitting here at CAAP
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/Prowler2001/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_9445_zps56438895.jpg

[Policy Limits]

What % of lemons has Chrysler historical produced in general? And how does that number compare with the other brands out there?

[Fatboy 18]

No Idea and to be honest I don't really care, but for those of you who have purchased a Gen V surley it would be good to try and identify and Fix issues quickly to keep the Gen V platform moving forward?

Im sure behind the scenes there are Engineers working on component design and managing quality control, but something has gone wrong on a few of these engines! It's not a Sky falling thing but it would be great if issues get resolved quickly.

I know of people here reluctant to take a gamble on getting one of these cars as there are no dealerships or Warranties outside of your country and to have an engine issue would cost BIG BUCKS
IMO there could be nothing worse than driving a car around wondering if your engine is next!

Get the issue fixed, tell people what the problem was and move on.

[99RT10]

Well simple logic is that the block and general arrangement is not much different than previous GEN. This GEN V had new forged crank and forged pistons which differed from previous years. Clearly some batches were not up to spec. Manufactured parts, it can happen. If they have a batch list, then they can trace it to a VIN as it is an audit able process. If some of those parts are bad, those explain using excessive oil. It's not like the GEN V engine is a whole new design.

Can anyone confirm that the crankshafts are different in the Gen 5 vs. the Gen 4s? I thought the only change was the pistons.

[ViperGeorge]

Bunch of them sitting here at CAAP
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/Prowler2001/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_9445_zps56438895.jpg

Nice picture but that is probably only a couple of weeks supply at most. Maybe only a few days worth.

[Dave1968]

Watched the Video again and it looks to me that when he released the gas, the Oil Pressure come up to 1 KPA which is about 14 PSI. Not near enough but it appears the pump was still trying to pump what ever oil was in it

Just to quickly clarify- 1 pound = 7 kpa. So he had no oil pressure.

[AZTVR]

I realize what the conversion is, but the Viper measurement is in 100 KPA but shows 1 which is 14.5 PSI My car cruising is at 5 Which is 72.5PSI Idle is at 3 which is 43.5 PSI

Does your gauge actually display what the unit of measure is?
What you are describing is that oil pressure in metric mode is being displayed in units of "bar," not "kPA".
i.e., 1 bar = 14.5 PSI = 100 kPA.
(Just my engineering side feeling the need for more clarification.)

[ViperSmith]

Sadly, I think the 2013/2014's will have this same perceived issue of the Porsche IMS Bearing failures (even though that was 10% of all 911's produced).

[swexlin]

Sadly, I think the 2013/2014's will have this same perceived issue of the Porsche IMS Bearing failures (even though that was 10% of all 911's

produced).

I have never heard of this

[supersnake]

I stand corrected as you are right, Had to go out and check the car and yes it is in Bar. Which in the video it was going from 0 Bar to 1 Bar or 14.5 PSI. So at least the pump was still trying to operate.
Does your gauge actually display what the unit of measure is?
What you are describing is that oil pressure in metric mode is being displayed in units of "bar," not "kPA".
i.e., 1 bar = 14.5 PSI = 100 kPA.
(Just my engineering side feeling the need for more clarification.)

[Voice of Reason]

I'd be willing to lookup my build date and post that in a sticky for my failed engine but not the VIN. The car has been running strong for the new owner and I don't care to make the vin a searchable term that will affect resale down the road for him.

The engines are certainly First In First Out at CAAP so a pile of them sitting there doesn't concern me. A listing of car build dates corresponds very closely to engine build dates so the difference is meaningless.

[elanderholm]

Sadly, I think the 2013/2014's will have this same perceived issue of the Porsche IMS Bearing failures (even though that was 10% of all 911's produced).


No one knows or cares about this except us enthusiasts. Porsche has only sold more cars than ever since this was an issue. You make something people really want and most issues are forgiven.

[Strykerviper2014]

I looked up my VIN # and uses the viper registry, says it was made June 23/14, do that tell anything?

[Viper Girl]

I'm willing to compile a list of VINs and build dates in a spreadsheet. If the people who have engine issues PM me your info. I'll put it together.

I think we should look at build date, VIN, trim level & mileage engine blew, any mods done to the engine.

If you want to include any notes pre failure. I'll add that in a separate column

When we have data I'll release a range of info. Not specific info related to an individual's viper.

[Vprbite]

That's nice of you, VG.

[viperdriver5150]

I know with my car is came off the truck and sat on the showroom floor until I bought it. It was a 2013 bought in December of 2014. Personally it had nothing to do with sitting, just a chunk of metal getting sucked into the oil line.

[7TH_SIGN]

I'm willing to compile a list of VINs and build dates in a spreadsheet. If the people who have engine issues PM me your info. I'll put it together.

I think we should look at build date, VIN, trim level & mileage engine blew, any mods done to the engine.

If you want to include any notes pre failure. I'll add that in a separate column

When we have data I'll release a range of info. Not specific info related to an individual's viper.

This would be awesome! Thank you.

[Jack B]

To have it make sense you have to divide the failures into low oil and debris related failures. You do not want to over complicate the data, as an example, mods or trim level have nothing to do with an oil or debris related failure:

1. Build date
2. Failure date.
3. Mileage.
4. Failure type:
A. Low oil.
B. Machining debris.
5. Oil type may also be of interest.
6. Were there any special circumstances.




I'm willing to compile a list of VINs and build dates in a spreadsheet. If the people who have engine issues PM me your info. I'll put it together.

I think we should look at build date, VIN, trim level & mileage engine blew, any mods done to the engine.

If you want to include any notes pre failure. I'll add that in a separate column

When we have data I'll release a range of info. Not specific info related to an individual's viper.

[Dave1968]

Also consider when did the owner do his first oil change.

[7TH_SIGN]

To have it make sense you have to divide the failures into low oil and debris related failures. You do not want to over complicate the data, as an example, mods or trim level have nothing to do with an oil or debris related failure:

1. Build date
2. Failure date.
3. Mileage.
4. Failure type:
A. Low oil.
B. Machining debris.
5. Oil type may also be of interest.
6. Were there any special circumstances.

Perfect. Lets get one going.

[Fatboy 18]

This is great, what a Club is all about. This can only help get down to the cause.


Well done Viper Girl and a good post there by JackB too :)

[swexlin]

Agreed, people helping each other. And coming up answers, hopefully.

[G37Sam]

Anything I can do to help! I'll PM you build date and engine details when I get the car back.

[F2V]

[QUOTE=Jack B;187953]To have it make sense you have to divide the failures into low oil and debris related failures. You do not want to over complicate the data, as an example, mods or trim level have nothing to do with an oil or debris related failure:

Good point Jack. Regarding my specific problem (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/11768-My-G5-Problem-Revisited!!), which has yet to be resolved, can you or others lend some insight. My engine has not failed (yet), however significant damage was found during HC tear down at WMD, caused by "debris", and I'm told a new engine is required before going further. My questions:

!. Is this considered an engine failure?
2. Have you seen damage like this before to a cam and cam journals (see pics in thread), in a Viper or other vehicle engine, and a guess as to how long it could run before a fail, or
before an indication of a problem is noticed?

Tks...

[ViperGeorge]

[QUOTE=Jack B;187953]To have it make sense you have to divide the failures into low oil and debris related failures. You do not want to over complicate the data, as an example, mods or trim level have nothing to do with an oil or debris related failure:

Good point Jack. Regarding my specific problem (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/11768-My-G5-Problem-Revisited!!), which has yet to be resolved, can you or others lend some insight. My engine has not failed (yet), however significant damage was found during HC tear down at WMD, caused by "debris", and I'm told a new engine is required before going further. My questions:

!. Is this considered an engine failure?
2. Have you seen damage like this before to a cam and cam journals (see pics in thread), in a Viper or other vehicle engine, and a guess as to how long it could run before a fail, or
before an indication of a problem is noticed?

Tks...

You need a new engine, I would say that qualifies as engine failure even if you didn't throw a rod through the block or something else catastrophic.

[Dave1968]

Well those rods and crank journal got pretty damn'd HOT...and yet the adjacent rods/journals were just fine...right?. Several things come to mind for me.
1. Too tight of rod bearing clearance on #3/4. Unlikely that the journals are that far off since these journals are all CNC machined to exact tolerances...but who knows what QC goes into the tooling process or specifically, QC on the rod bearing dimensional tolerances. Do they physically check rod bearing clearances or just measure rotating assembly torque to "sense" that there is the right rotational friction that proper clearances would indicate? Makes me wonder. Mahl engineered and grinds the cam and supplies the bearings if I'm not mistaken.
2. Main bearings and other rods were all fine...right? So the oiling system and oil level is a non-factor IMO.

So in my book, there is something askew in a manufactured 'lot' of rod bearings that were used in VIN XXXYYYZZZZ....and Chrysler knows it. Finally, have all these failures been on #3/4 rod bearings? Or on others as well...That would be a good data point.

Definitely they got super hot and were probably suffering for quite some time before failure - that bluing is hard core set into the crank. I'm thinking a piece of debris lodged in the oil journal that feeds those two bearings - not a complete blockage, but enough to restrict oil flow and allow heat and friction to build up to the point of failure.

When did you do your first oil change G37Sam?

[Jack B]

Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel, he said he was low on oil. That picture could very easily be explained away as low oil. It is a good bet that the cam bearings also show bearing issues.



Definitely they got super hot and were probably suffering for quite some time before failure - that bluing is hard core set into the crank. I'm thinking a piece of debris lodged in the oil journal that feeds those two bearings - not a complete blockage, but enough to restrict oil flow and allow heat and friction to build up to the point of failure.

When did you do your first oil change G37Sam?

[LmeaViper]

ViperJeff has it listed:

2013
http://www.vipertruckregistry.com/Viper%20Lists/2013%20Vipers.html
2014
http://www.vipertruckregistry.com/Viper%20Lists/2014%20Vipers.html

This is an excellent website...thanks.

Oddly my 2013 (Cdn ) G5 was build after mid July 2013. I really expected my car to be a much earlier build as it looks like the 2014 builds started in August 2013.

[swexlin]

Interesting, my build date is 4/1/13 (which I knew from my door sticker) and confirmed on here. I always thought that was early, but it was actually a "mid-year". Looks like builds started late 2012!

[Dave1968]

Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel, he said he was low on oil. That picture could very easily be explained away as low oil. It is a good bet that the cam bearings also show bearing issues.

One quart low doesn't blow an engine and if it was very low, the entire engine would show signs. Come on man get in the game.

[ViperTony]

One quart low doesn't blow an engine and if it was very low, the entire engine would show signs. Come on man get in the game.

Where did you read it was low one quart? see below.


It was definitely low oil level, I checked the oil after the incident and it was well below the safe hashmark.

[Jprince]

9 seconds into that video you can also see that there was no oil pressure. I'm surprised that it made it that long with no oil pressure. It would be interesting to know exactly how low on oil it was to cause this.

[TrackAire]

One quart low doesn't blow an engine and if it was very low, the entire engine would show signs. Come on man get in the game.

Some do not want to believe that it is a defective parts issue....period. No modern vehicle is designed to burn the amount of oil some of the Gen 5 owners are reporting...That in itself is a defect. It is total bullshit to expect a Gen 5 owner to have to check the oil every week or every few hundred miles of driving. Although many have changed the oil at 500 miles on their new vehicle, it should not be necessary to insure the longevity of the Gen 5's V10. And for some that have changed the oil before the owners manual requires it, they still had an issue. I'm amazed that the vehicles emissions systems have not been fouled or thrown codes because of the volume of oil the engine is burning (I'm assuming it is getting burnt, no reports of major leaks AFAIK)

If I understood G37Sam's explanation, every Gen 5 sold in his geographic area is getting a new motor, even if it is not showing "issues". If this is true, this tells me that there is a major issue that Chrysler is taking care of but not in the USA because of the potential cost due to the numbers of Gen 5's that may have a VIN that falls in the danger zone. This is a waiting game that Chrysler will just wait until the cars time out or mileage out of their warranty. They also know that the majority of owners put on a minimum of miles on these cars....again the odds are in Chrysler's favor.

Since this is such a hit or miss proposition on which engine will have an issue, Chrysler should just step up and increase the warranty period and mileage on these cars to help protect loyal customers from the feeling of "when will my motor let go" whenever they drive their car. Nothing mechanical is perfect, but the way the manufacturer handles the situation is what most of us care about.

[Simms]

Sorry if I missed it, but do we know any build dates on these cars that have had failures suspected from debris?

[Pappy]

Following with interest, but not alarm. I ordered an ACR in November and should get it in late January. I have been through this drill before. I have a low mileage 2011 Z06 Corvette, and as you probably know there has been a fairly high (20%???) failure rate of LS7s with valve issues. GM claimed they had "the machining problem" cured in late 2010, but there have been similar failures in cars built after that. My car is low mileage, is out of warranty, and I still don't know if it will have a problem - time and miles will tell. The whole scenario sucks, but it is still better than driving some foreign muscle car wanna-be! If a motor fails, it's just a good excuse for a oh-what-the-hell rebuild with a few significant improvements.

Pappy

[Jack B]

Dave

you are showing a lack of knowledge, just a guess you have never seen the oil pan on the G5 yet are an expert on all things viper. This has been hashed over many/many times:

1. The dip stick is extremely hard to read, you can be off my two quarts just by not understanding how to read the dipstick.

2. He was not "Just" one quart low, he did not really know where the level was at. His mechanic was telling us to put in 12.5 qts, you tell me the level.

3. The viper pan is large, but, very shallow, the pan itself will exacerbate the low oil level issues.

4. Compound the low oil level and the shallow pan with a long hard sweeper and you will have the pump sucking air. His gauge showed no pressure, however, his post seems to suggest after he added oil, the pressure came back, that seems to prove one of his problems was low oil.

5. As far as using oil, we do not know exactly why this affects only certain cars, mine used oil for the first 2000 miles and then sealed up. However, my 5.7L 2012 and 2014 Grand Cherokee did the same thing.

Let me know if you need any more help in understanding the complexity of the viper, you really should use the search function before posting.




One quart low doesn't blow an engine and if it was very low, the entire engine would show signs. Come on man get in the game.

[G37Sam]

Let me add a few points to clear the confusion:

1) I do all my servicing at the dealer at their recommended 5,000 km intervals (3,125 miles) - just to maintain my warranty. It is absolutely unacceptable for a customer of a $100k car to be checking his oil with a dipstick with every underwear change. If it was such an acknowledged concern from the manufacturer, then why not add an oil level sensor/check (like the rest of the world?). I refuse to add oil manually to my somewhat new car when I'm servicing it so frequently, if the next engine pops again then they better buy their fckin junk back.

2) The oil level was too low for too long which probably spun a bearing, period. Can we please end this useless debate now? The engine will probably go back to the US for teardown so I doubt we'll get more info on that.

3) I got a call saying my clutch was cracked in half as well. Getting them to replace it under warranty/goodwill. They're saying it's a wear & tear item, I'm saying it's cracked not worn down.

Stay tuned!

[Fatboy 18]

Anyone thought of fitting a dry sump system? Trouble would be where to mount the Oil tank?

[swexlin]

Some do not want to believe that it is a defective parts issue....period. No modern vehicle is designed to burn the amount of oil some of the Gen 5 owners are reporting...That in itself is a defect. It is total bullshit to expect a Gen 5 owner to have to check the oil every week or every few hundred miles of driving. Although many have changed the oil at 500 miles on their new vehicle, it should not be necessary to insure the longevity of the Gen 5's V10. And for some that have changed the oil before the owners manual requires it, they still had an issue. I'm amazed that the vehicles emissions systems have not been fouled or thrown codes because of the volume of oil the engine is burning (I'm assuming it is getting burnt, no reports of major leaks AFAIK)

If I understood G37Sam's explanation, every Gen 5 sold in his geographic area is getting a new motor, even if it is not showing "issues". If this is true, this tells me that there is a major issue that Chrysler is taking care of but not in the USA because of the potential cost due to the numbers of Gen 5's that may have a VIN that falls in the danger zone. This is a waiting game that Chrysler will just wait until the cars time out or mileage out of their warranty. They also know that the majority of owners put on a minimum of miles on these cars....again the odds are in Chrysler's favor.

Since this is such a hit or miss proposition on which engine will have an issue, Chrysler should just step up and increase the warranty period and mileage on these cars to help protect loyal customers from the feeling of "when will my motor let go" whenever they drive their car. Nothing mechanical is perfect, but the way the manufacturer handles the situation is what most of us care about.

Excellent post, and you bring up points I had earlier mentioned. There IS a list, Chrysler DOES know, but is not acting. Also, why does my $20K Dart have a "change oil warning" (which based on my driving is about every 4000 miles, which is about right) but my $100K msrp Viper doesn't?

[Fatboy 18]

So where would they fit a low oil level sending unit? The oil pan is long and shallow, hard braking would cause oil to surge forward, hard acceleration causes oil to surge backwards, if a sender unit was at either end of the oil pan you would constantly get false warnings! Same if you put the car into a long corner, the oil would move to one side. Yes Im sure there are Baffle plates but because its long and low it would be very hard to get an accurate reading from a sender unit. Its not so much of an issue to fit a warning sender unit on a deep oil pan but on the Viper you would be in panic mode every few seconds!

[zzmike]

Why not just change the config in the SRT app, so that if oil pressure drops below one BAR anytime the engine is over 1500 RPM, there is a warning buzzer that sounds through the speakers?

Doesn't sound like it would be too difficult for the whiz kids at FCA to build a patch for that.

[Dave1968]

Dave

you are showing a lack of knowledge, just a guess you have never seen the oil pan on the G5 yet are an expert on all things viper. This has been hashed over many/many times:

1. The dip stick is extremely hard to read, you can be off my two quarts just by not understanding how to read the dipstick.

2. He was not "Just" one quart low, he did not really know where the level was at. His mechanic was telling us to put in 12.5 qts, you tell me the level.

3. The viper pan is large, but, very shallow, the pan itself will exacerbate the low oil level issues.

4. Compound the low oil level and the shallow pan with a long hard sweeper and you will have the pump sucking air. His gauge showed no pressure, however, his post seems to suggest after he added oil, the pressure came back, that seems to prove one of his problems was low oil.

5. As far as using oil, we do not know exactly why this affects only certain cars, mine used oil for the first 2000 miles and then sealed up. However, my 5.7L 2012 and 2014 Grand Cherokee did the same thing.

Let me know if you need any more help in understanding the complexity of the viper, you really should use the search function before posting.

I have changed the oil in my Viper 3 times within 8400 miles - the dipstick is NOT hard to read unless your wearing a blindfold. He said it was below the safe mark - but it was on the stick! Meaning 2 - 3 quarts down at the max I would say. The pan is long, like a bathtub, but it has baffling, etc.. to minimize sloshing around of the oil plus the moving sump helps to ensure oil pickup. If the sump was having trouble picking up oil and was instead sucking air from time to time there would fluctuations in oil pressure and I would say the heat and wear damage inside the motor would not be so localized, but would be throughout. Why does this not make sense? So all I'm saying is the proof is not overwhelming that oil level was the cause. If he had to fight Dodge, and I say IF, he would lose as low oil level would most likely be written off as owner neglect. With people finding left over debris to be the cause, it is possible that, if he didn't do the first oil change until well into the engine's service life that little bits of debris could have formed a partial damn in the oil journal and restricted oil flow to that specific set of bearings and caused their failure. Maybe this is a too technical, but it's always good to look at all possibilities.

[AZTVR]

I refuse to add oil manually to my somewhat new car when I'm servicing it so frequently, if the next engine pops again then they better buy their fckin junk back.

A recommendation from another post I read is to make sure that you get in writing, a new separate warranty for the new engine. This is what the warranty supplied with the 2014 says about what is covered: "any item on your vehicle when it left the manufacturing plant that is defective in material, workmanship or factory preparation." It then lists some exceptions for wear items. I underlined the part that would concern me about the coverage of a replacement part (i.e., engine)

[Resident Alien]

To have it make sense you have to divide the failures into low oil and debris related failures. You do not want to over complicate the data, as an example, mods or trim level have nothing to do with an oil or debris related failure:

1. Build date
2. Failure date.
3. Mileage.
4. Failure type:
A. Low oil.
B. Machining debris.
5. Oil type may also be of interest.
6. Were there any special circumstances.


Just a suggestion, maybe under category 6.

Was high RPM (a redline visit) involved shortly before / during the failure? It seems that it was in this particular case. High RPM and cross-drilled cranks are typically a bad combination, precisely because of oil starvation issues (see for example http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-51-crank-calls-part-ii/).

Gen V engines spin freer (11 lbs lighter flywheel) and higher (6400 red line), yet I'm not sure the oil pump was improved over the gen IVs. I am aware that some Gen Vs are run as high as 6800 with no issues so far, but that does not completely negate this potential problem.

[viperdriver5150]

Excellent post, and you bring up points I had earlier mentioned. There IS a list, Chrysler DOES know, but is not acting. Also, why does my $20K Dart have a "change oil warning" (which based on my driving is about every 4000 miles, which is about right) but my $100K msrp Viper doesn't?

Could not agree with you more...

[Atlas]

So where would they fit a low oil level sending unit? The oil pan is long and shallow, hard braking would cause oil to surge forward, hard acceleration causes oil to surge backwards, if a sender unit was at either end of the oil pan you would constantly get false warnings! Same if you put the car into a long corner, the oil would move to one side. Yes Im sure there are Baffle plates but because its long and low it would be very hard to get an accurate reading from a sender unit. Its not so much of an issue to fit a warning sender unit on a deep oil pan but on the Viper you would be in panic mode every few seconds!

In any of my other cars that are fitted with a low oil level sensor, it's directly in the middle on the pan. You can see the sensor when you are changing oil. Makes total sense, and I look at my level all the time via this sensor in my Range Rover and Audi S5. In fact, I just had a small oil leak on my S5 that I noticed I had been losing oil via the sensor. It was just the washer on the drain plug, but regardless, What a novelty concept! And if the sensor ever malfunctions, it just doesn't read anything at all.

[ViperSmith]

Would it be possible to retrofit a dipstick with a sensor to detect low oil?

[ellowviper]

I just throw this out there. ITS NOT A LOW OIL LEVEL ISSUE. Did anyone hear their lifters tapping like crazy? First thing you'll hear with low or zero oil pressure is your lifters will let you know immediately. Any signs of wear on the main journals? Other rod bearings? ZERO ZIP NADA. You lose oil pressure to the point you are spinning rod bearings, you will definitely hear it in the lifters (well before any engine damage) and see signs on all pressurized bearings and surfaces within the engine. All I see is a HOT HOT HOT spun bearings on #3/4 rod journals. Rest of the engine is A-OK....Crank is either plugged (became plugged) at those specific rod journal orifices or bearing clearance on #3/4 was wrong all along (I vote for a blockage until proven otherwise...could be an over-torqued rod cap too). If Chrysler is doing a VIN-specific replacement across the board or on off-shore sales, there is something rotten in Denmark.

[7TH_SIGN]

Some do not want to believe that it is a defective parts issue....period.

Absolutely, I ran in to that crowd when my Jeep had numerous issues.


Excellent post, and you bring up points I had earlier mentioned. There IS a list, Chrysler DOES know, but is not acting. Also, why does my $20K Dart have a "change oil warning" (which based on my driving is about every 4000 miles, which is about right) but my $100K msrp Viper doesn't?

True. Sad... But true.

[Viper Girl]

Ok hows this for a form to fill out to gather information?

http://bit.ly/1OlgJrv


it automatically puts the data into a spreadsheet so its not a big deal to compile.

[Fatboy 18]

That's Brilliant :t1236:

[Pappy]

Excellent! One thing that might be pertinent in the "comments" section could be lateral g loading or braking deceleration. With the high aero downforce and the CCBs on the ACR, I have some concerns about the wet sump system and shallow oil pan being able to keep up with the increased forces, as "some other brands" have experienced.

Pappy

[SRT BILL]

Hey Viper Girl nice form! Hope I never need it.

[Viper Girl]

Excellent! One thing that might be pertinent in the "comments" section could be lateral g loading or braking deceleration. With the high aero downforce and the CCBs on the ACR, I have some concerns about the wet sump system and shallow oil pan being able to keep up with the increased forces, as "some other brands" have experienced.

Pappy

So a what were you doing before it went Boom question? LOL

"Dude hold my beer" comes to mind after reading that sentence

[swexlin]

Ok hows this for a form to fill out to gather information?

https://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/gPs0iqaH1NDZeed04Kh

it automatically puts the data into a spreadsheet so its not a big deal to compile.

Very good!

[lochnessmonster]

Thanks, that's a lot of driving! So, if I did my math right, you have about 12,400 miles on the car, which is the highest-mileage failure I think I've read about here. I would have thought at that mileage you would have been past the danger zone.

Please keep us posted.

Let's be very very VERY clear about this particular situation. G37Sam checked his oil level a month ago, put some pretty serious miles on it between now and then, didn't check it for a month, didn't check it before his track day, and the engine failed as a result of low oil because it was well below the "safe" line after it packed it in. That line is there for a reason BTW. You know how it says "safe"??????? If you operate the engine with the oil below the "safe" line your engine is no longer "safe", right? The engineers at SRT didn't put that term, or that mark on the dipstick for shits and giggles. No. It's actually supposed to be complied with. Duh......

I don't think it's fair to characterize this situation as having ANYTHING to do with a "danger zone". Unless of course you consider the "danger zone" to have begun one month ago when he checked his oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! This, IMHO, is not an FCA/SRT error. This is operator error, plain and simple, and I do appreciate his honesty: hard to find these days. And, before I hear the arguments that it could have been something other than a low oil level, well, let's just say this, if it was at the proper "safe" mark, as it is supposed to be, we wouldn't even be suspecting that as a problem would we? Additionally, G37Sam has indicated that his low oil level was the cause. I don't need any more information than that.

[supersnake]

G37Sam, I do agree that for a $100000.00 car you should not have to check the oil every time you take it out. I don't know how much you drive yours, I know its a lot more than me due to climate restrictions but when I do I pop the hood ,pull the stick just for my piece of mind. Its a good habit to get into and also have a look at all the components under the hood. Only takes a minute. Chances are that I feel from your posts you do not check your Oil at all between service time. And if this is the case you probably caused some damage earlier on and it finally had enough on your track day. I suspect that the low oil would be the cause of your issue as you have 20000 kms on it. If it was a shaving/machining error, I feel It should have failed a lot earlier than it did. Hopefully you get your new engine and it runs flawlessy like others have posted. But I would sure pull the stick on that one too
Let me add a few points to clear the confusion:

1) I do all my servicing at the dealer at their recommended 5,000 km intervals (3,125 miles) - just to maintain my warranty. It is absolutely unacceptable for a customer of a $100k car to be checking his oil with a dipstick with every underwear change. If it was such an acknowledged concern from the manufacturer, then why not add an oil level sensor/check (like the rest of the world?). I refuse to add oil manually to my somewhat new car when I'm servicing it so frequently, if the next engine pops again then they better buy their fckin junk back.

2) The oil level was too low for too long which probably spun a bearing, period. Can we please end this useless debate now? The engine will probably go back to the US for teardown so I doubt we'll get more info on that.

3) I got a call saying my clutch was cracked in half as well. Getting them to replace it under warranty/goodwill. They're saying it's a wear & tear item, I'm saying it's cracked not worn down.

Stay tuned!

[Viper Girl]

I did some simple math, Sam posted in 03/2015 that he bought the car

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/7830-A-dream-came-true!-New-owner-from-Dubai!

He's had the Viper for 9 months in the thread he says it has 2500 miles on it. With the current total he's driven the car a total of 9927 miles over 9 months, OR basically 1100 miles a month.
So 1 month or 1,100 miles ago his oil level was fine... Until it wasn't.

Doesn't that seem like a lot of oil to be down in 1,100 miles?

[ViperJon]

So to all the apologists suggesting most of these cases are operator "error" please point me to the threads where the Gen IV motors are blowing up for the same reason. Oh that's right, it didn't happen. But now it's acceptable for a new motor to burn 3-4 quarts in a thousand miles and you damn well better check it every time you take a ride. Cmonnnn.

[supersnake]

I did some simple math, Sam posted in 03/2015 that he bought the car

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/7830-A-dream-came-true!-New-owner-from-Dubai!

He's had the Viper for 9 months in the thread he says it has 2500 miles on it. With the current total he's driven the car a total of 9927 miles over 9 months, OR basically 1100 miles a month.
So 1 month or 1,100 miles ago his oil level was fine... Until it wasn't.

Doesn't that seem like a lot of oil to be down in 1,100 miles?

Yes that is a lot for 1100 miles but as I stated before, normal cruising he might have got away with it lower than normal. G forces on long sweeping curves, harsh braking, acceleration and the combination of low oil is a definite disaster waiting to happen. For the amount of oil he goes through on that mileage,everything should be seated in by that mileage. I do agree there is something wrong with the engine to displace that type of oil consumption. It's just to bad he didn't catch it in time.

[Special Ed]

Excellent post, and you bring up points I had earlier mentioned. There IS a list, Chrysler DOES know, but is not acting. Also, why does my $20K Dart have a "change oil warning" (which based on my driving is about every 4000 miles, which is about right) but my $100K msrp Viper doesn't?

Because it's called an idiot light and someone that buys a street legal race car should know their way around a car better than your average mom in a Dart

[Special Ed]

G37Sam, I do agree that for a $100000.00 car you should not have to check the oil every time you take it out. I don't know how much you drive yours, I know its a lot more than me due to climate restrictions but when I do I pop the hood ,pull the stick just for my piece of mind. Its a good habit to get into and also have a look at all the components under the hood. Only takes a minute. Chances are that I feel from your posts you do not check your Oil at all between service time. And if this is the case you probably caused some damage earlier on and it finally had enough on your track day. I suspect that the low oil would be the cause of your issue as you have 20000 kms on it. If it was a shaving/machining error, I feel It should have failed a lot earlier than it did. Hopefully you get your new engine and it runs flawlessy like others have posted. But I would sure pull the stick on that one too

Based on that logic you shouldn't have to ever pre flight an airplane or examine anything on a car costing half a million.

[Vprbite]

So a what were you doing before it went Boom question? LOL

"Dude hold my beer" comes to mind after reading that sentence


Hey ya'll, watch this!

[Viktimize]

Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel, he said he was low on oil. That picture could very easily be explained away as low oil. It is a good bet that the cam bearings also show bearing issues.


Really depends on what the oil flow routing is. If it's low oil, you'll be seeing starvation consequences at the oiling point farthest down the line from the pump first. Is the 3rd and 4th rod bearings the last place to get oil from the pump? I don't know myself.

Automatically assuming that because the oil was low, that this is his issue, is backwards way to do an analysis. If you have a pre-determined cause in mind, then you can generally always find a way to make your data support that, but you risk missing other factors in the process that you write off as irrelevant. Speculation at this point is useless until a tear down is done and all the data examined.

[TrackAire]

Yes that is a lot for 1100 miles but as I stated before, normal cruising he might have got away with it lower than normal. G forces on long sweeping curves, harsh braking, acceleration and the combination of low oil is a definite disaster waiting to happen. For the amount of oil he goes through on that mileage,everything should be seated in by that mileage. I do agree there is something wrong with the engine to displace that type of oil consumption. It's just to bad he didn't catch it in time.

A defect is a defect, whether it is burning excessive oil or losing a rod bearing. The problem is Chrysler won't do anything about the high oil consumption issue but will replace a motor under warranty if it loses a bearing.

As a consumer of a Viper with a high oil consumption issue, I would do the same as G37Sam and not care about the oil level and let the engine take a shit. At least you'll get a new motor under warranty that hopefully has the issue sorted out. I can't imagine a motor burning 3 quarts of oil in 1100 miles....how can it function and not throw emission codes or a lot of blue smoke out the exhaust??

[darbgnik]

So to all the apologists suggesting most of these cases are operator "error" please point me to the threads where the Gen IV motors are blowing up for the same reason. Oh that's right, it didn't happen. But now it's acceptable for a new motor to burn 3-4 quarts in a thousand miles and you damn well better check it every time you take a ride. Cmonnnn.

I'm just guessing here, but my guess the oil consumption on some cars is a separate issue than the more common of the failure issues....

I think I remember the main difference is the forged reciprocating assembly found in the Gen 5 vs the Gen 4 engine. Sealing up a forged assembly can be problematic, but it's usually only found in all out performance built motors, paid for by the owner, and not coming off an assembly line. I think we can all agree that most guys that get their motors built for ragged edge performance probably check it religiously. Don't take this as coming from an apologist, as I don't think we should check the oil every fuel up, like during break in, during the whole life of the car. My car used a quart or two during break in, but has since sealed up tight as a drum, so much so, that I rarely check it anymore, except for track days, just in case. Seems like a case of be careful what you wish for..... I remember everyone begging for the next Viper to have a forged motor, like the older cars, that would be more boost friendly. Now we have it, and now we have some that seem to like a little oil with their fuel, lol.

I went off topic a bit, but, I still think the oil consumption issue, and the failure issue are different issues, both related the QC, but in different aspects. My .02, not even worth that.

[darbgnik]

A defect is a defect, whether it is burning excessive oil or losing a rod bearing. The problem is Chrysler won't do anything about the high oil consumption issue but will replace a motor under warranty if it loses a bearing.

As a consumer of a Viper with a high oil consumption issue, I would do the same as G37Sam and not care about the oil level and let the engine take a shit. At least you'll get a new motor under warranty that hopefully has the issue sorted out. I can't imagine a motor burning 3 quarts of oil in 1100 miles....how can it function and not throw emission codes or a lot of blue smoke out the exhaust??
This is exactly what I'd do too, if my car had a high oil consumption problem. I'd let it consume all it needed to get me into a new engine, problem solved.

But I'd try to make sure it did it at the end of our short driving season, maybe October? lol

[supersnake]

I agree a defect is a defect, I work in the industry and Manufactures always think the engine will seat in and Quit using Oil, They give you a procedure for monitoring the oil consumption which I have always felt it is a cop out so they don't have to pay. I agree No new vehicle Viper, Dart, Ram should not use oil after the initial break in. But I have seen different engines over the years burn oil. Engines with Forged Internals use a little more than a Cast Piston Engine It is just the way it is. It takes time to quit burning oil. Don't know about you but my Gen 5 has 5000 kms on it. The last 700 Kms it used one litre. I am not concerned as of yet but if it gets to 20000 like Gsams. I will be pissed as well
A defect is a defect, whether it is burning excessive oil or losing a rod bearing. The problem is Chrysler won't do anything about the high oil consumption issue but will replace a motor under warranty if it loses a bearing.

As a consumer of a Viper with a high oil consumption issue, I would do the same as G37Sam and not care about the oil level and let the engine take a shit. At least you'll get a new motor under warranty that hopefully has the issue sorted out. I can't imagine a motor burning 3 quarts of oil in 1100 miles....how can it function and not throw emission codes or a lot of blue smoke out the exhaust??

[TrackAire]

I agree a defect is a defect, I work in the industry and Manufactures always think the engine will seat in and Quit using Oil, They give you a procedure for monitoring the oil consumption which I have always felt it is a cop out so they don't have to pay. I agree No new vehicle Viper, Dart, Ram should not use oil after the initial break in. But I have seen different engines over the years burn oil. Engines with Forged Internals use a little more than a Cast Piston Engine It is just the way it is. It takes time to quit burning oil. Don't know about you but my Gen 5 has 5000 kms on it. The last 700 Kms it used one litre. I am not concerned as of yet but if it gets to 20000 like Gsams. I will be pissed as well

I'm glad you posted your vehicles oil usage...if I'm understanding your oil consumption correctly, you used 1 quart of oil in just over 430 miles of driving (Yank translation :)). Are you noticing any blue smoke or any traditional signs of oil consumption? If not, I must be missing something or the catalytic converters on these vehicles are in a league of their own, lol.

[supersnake]

I'm glad you posted your vehicles oil usage...if I'm understanding your oil consumption correctly, you used 1 quart of oil in just over 430 miles of driving (Yank translation :)). Are you noticing any blue smoke or any traditional signs of oil consumption? If not, I must be missing something or the catalytic converters on these vehicles are in a league of their own, lol. That is Correct, But am not worried about it as I have seen forged internals take time to seat in. Granted I am not easy on the car but not abusive either. I don't drive it like I stole it either. I will say that there is no smoke at all and none of our Viper friends have ever seen any. No Leaks or anything suspicious. I feel that my rings,valves are just not set in as of yet. And we won't find out anymore on it till Spring

[Newport Viper]

Look these cars are a f...in DODGE. They are all a POS. SELL yours now before they all blow. If you put your VIN online you are a f$%%# dumb a$$. #TRUTHHURTS

[darbgnik]

Look these cars are a f...in DODGE. They are all a POS. SELL yours now before they all blow. If you put your VIN online you are a f$%%# dumb a$$. #TRUTHHURTS
Drinking again? Lol

[LmeaViper]

Drinking again? Lol

Haha...let's run it by the typical checklist:

- After dark...check
- Anyday of the week...check
- The caps and lower case letters flipped...nope
- Cheap shot posts with lots of #%#...check

So chances are = yUP.
lol

[supersnake]

Not enough challenge for me, Everyday I work on equipment 10 Times the amount you suggest.
Based on that logic you shouldn't have to ever pre flight an airplane or examine anything on a car costing half a million.

[Viper Girl]

Wanted to check in to see if anyone thinks we need to ask for any more or different information before I put the engine failure form in the forums?

http://bit.ly/1OlgJrv

If you have any suggestions nows the time to bring them up so all the data will be reflect the same info

Thanks

[Jack B]

Add

Was there a CEL, if so list Code Number



Wanted to check in to see if anyone thinks we need to ask for any more or different information before I put the engine failure form in the forums?

http://bit.ly/1OlgJrv

If you have any suggestions nows the time to bring them up so all the data will be reflect the same info

Thanks

[TrackAire]

Look these cars are a f...in DODGE. They are all a POS. SELL yours now before they all blow. If you put your VIN online you are a f$%%# dumb a$$. #TRUTHHURTS

Maybe you should worry about your Mercedes and its motor:
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/mercedes-benz-sued-over-amg-v8-engine-failures-38995.html

http://www.jacobregarlaw.com/Blog/2013/February/Update-Mercedes-Benz-AMG-Class-Action-for-the-M1.aspx

http://amgmarket.com/2011/10/mercedes-benz-faces-class-action-lawsuits-for-amg-v8-engines/

There are people on this thread trying to help with constructive opinions and experiences.....your posts are proving you have the mechanical aptitude of a bowling pin.

[Viper Girl]

Add

Was there a CEL, if so list Code Number
Awesome I'll add the CEL code

[G37Sam]

Some updates, turns out the clutch was cracked as well:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/G37Sam/IMG-20151229-WA0003_zpsvygxhx1f.jpg

Out with the old:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/G37Sam/IMG-20151229-WA0005_zpsfutujfh6.jpg

In with the new:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/G37Sam/20160104_125529_zpsy0dv6m3d.jpg

Can't wait to get her back on the road!

[Fatboy 18]

That was quick!

[Nick TA]

My engine swap took 4 months this isn't fair! Haha

[swexlin]

Agreed, SUPER quick! Please keep us posted. Interesting about that clutch.

[Jack B]

The clutch is on you.



Some updates, turns out the clutch was cracked as well:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/G37Sam/IMG-20151229-WA0003_zpsvygxhx1f.jpg

Out with the old:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/G37Sam/IMG-20151229-WA0005_zpsfutujfh6.jpg

In with the new:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/G37Sam/20160104_125529_zpsy0dv6m3d.jpg

Can't wait to get her back on the road!

[Y'orange_UAE]

G37Sam,

Get Mcleod clutch cheaper + pedal feels better than stock and handle more power!

[Fatboy 18]

I bet he is already driving the car on the road!
they don't hang about over there!

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Any updates? Have you gotten the car back yet?

[SADVIPER]

11 liters go in easily at around the safe mark if I'm replacung the filter, usually I add minimal amounts after driving it a bit to maintain 10.5-11 liters.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your issues guys but luckily your Dodge dealer in UAE is better than ours in Kuwait.

[G37Sam]

Car's back on the road! New engine, clutch & oil cooler.

I don't know if my butt dyno's screwed up but it feels a lot more alive lol

[tiki240]

wow. three weeks from catastrophic failure to back on the road!? if only the US dealers moved so fast..

[G37Sam]

In all fairness, I had an engine assigned to me and sitting at the dealer for a while now.

Had that not been the case, would've taken a few months for sure.