Arrow PCM vs hp tuners etc.

[Bleed viper]

It seems from my hours of reading post upon posts that the plug n play power of the arrow pcm is hard to argue with. At what point is the arrow pcm no longer useful and can't keep up? Is there anyone that wished they had gone with a custom tune instead of the arrow unit? Any major downside to going with arrow? I know you can do minor things, but can you do the head/cam package also and the pcm help add more power? Any places it falls short? By now I know several of you have them installed, thanks for the thoughts.

[Junkie]

What is the rev limit of the Arrow PCM setup?

Seriously considering the Arrow heads/cam/PCM with the addition of intake porting if possible.

[KB Viper]

It seems from my hours of reading post upon posts that the plug n play power of the arrow pcm is hard to argue with. At what point is the arrow pcm no longer useful and can't keep up? Is there anyone that wished they had gone with a custom tune instead of the arrow unit? Any major downside to going with arrow? I know you can do minor things, but can you do the head/cam package also and the pcm help add more power? Any places it falls short? By now I know several of you have them installed, thanks for the thoughts.

i've had all 3. headers and HP tune was first and i was getting a code/check engine light every three weeks or so for about 4k miles. I then went to the stage one and loved it. decel pop that makes you seem like rolling thunder, car was super fast and ran flawless. I had no codes or lights for 8k miles. I am now running the stage 2 with arrow heads and cam and everything is spot on. the only thing i don't like is Dick pulled the decel pop out of this calibration. He says, with the single profile cam a decel fuel map is need to slow the car down in gear. I miss the decel pop.


What is the rev limit of the Arrow PCM setup?
Seriously considering the Arrow heads/cam/PCM with the addition of intake porting if possible.
6700, I think with the way your ACR will look it needs a rough choppy idle!

[Junkie]

I would actually prefer no decal pop, we had it both ways with my car and HPT

[Jdmuscle]

So I read that the arrow pcm yields about 30 whp in plug and play applicatons and about 50 whp with headers. What has been the most some has extracted out of just getting some HP tuner points and throwing the car on the dyno (with and without headers)?

[BJG32]

What is the rev limit of the Arrow PCM setup?

Seriously considering the Arrow heads/cam/PCM with the addition of intake porting if possible.

H/C uses stock pcm for emission reasons

[Jdmuscle]

BJG.. Looks like you can either use the Arrow or the stock pcm for the H/C pkg. you can switch between them for the yearly rituals :)

[FLATOUT]

I ran HPTuners and the Arrow unit on my old TA. HPTuners worked fine but I would get codes from time to time. Switched to the Arrow controller and the overall calibration was much cleaner and the car was much more consistent. The stage 2 calibration is really good as well.

I have them in stock and ready to ship if anyone needs one.

Andy

[FLATOUT]

BJG.. Looks like you can either use the Arrow or the stock pcm for the H/C pkg. you can switch between them for the yearly rituals :)

You can swap back and forth on a near stock or Bolton car but not on a H/C car.

[Jdmuscle]

You can swap back and forth on a near stock or Bolton car but not on a H/C car.

Ahh I see, so for the H/C pkg then it's better off getting the stock PCM flashed than the Arrow pcm. Thanks for the clarification Andy.

[BDZ1984]

I have them in stock and ready to ship if anyone needs one.

Andy

Really thinking I need this soon!!

[Malu59RT]

Really thinking I need this soon!!

Brian, next week I have 1/2 days, you are more than welcome to borrow mine for a day or two. That will seal the deal :)

[ViperJon]

Andy or someone....Could someone explain what is involved in the required "dealer" programming of the Arrow PCM?
My local dealer would be challenged getting the right air pressure in the tires...def an issue with me when the dealer has to touch the car.

[Malu59RT]

Andy or someone....Could someone explain what is involved in the required "dealer" programming of the Arrow PCM?
My local dealer would be challenged getting the right air pressure in the tires...def an issue with me when the dealer has to touch the car.

I sat next to the tech that did mine. They have to program the VIN number of your car to the PCM, and then perform the throttle calibration (put the pedal all the way down so the PCM knows when throttle should be 100% open). Throttle calibration may have to be done SEVERAL times before the car is 100% happy.

[Sub Driver]

H/C uses stock pcm for emission reasons
H/C does not use stock PCM and it isn't emissions legal either.

[viper04]

So I read that the arrow pcm yields about 30 whp in plug and play applicatons and about 50 whp with headers. What has been the most some has extracted out of just getting some HP tuner points and throwing the car on the dyno (with and without headers)?

If I'm not mistaken I think pdv25 may have the highest HP tuner hp number ( it was a custom tune) with bolt on's. Will have to look up some of his old post.

[Nine Ball]

Don't get into the game of comparing peak hp numbers across the world, on different dynos. What matters is before/after gains, of the same car, on the same dyno. The net hp gain, not the peak value. HP Tuners certainly offers more custom tune potential, especially for those in elevation or climate challenged areas. But, this is only when in the hands of a capable tuner, that knows what he is doing with the Gen 5 Viper.

[BJG32]

Andy or someone....Could someone explain what is involved in the required "dealer" programming of the Arrow PCM?
My local dealer would be challenged getting the right air pressure in the tires...def an issue with me when the dealer has to touch the car.

LOL....my thoughts too. I want to do the PCM, but my local dealers freak me out. I just know the programming will be Chinese math to them......

[pdv25]

If I'm not mistaken I think pdv25 may have the highest HP tuner hp number ( it was a custom tune) with bolt on's. Will have to look up some of his old post.

Here are my results. Original vs a touch up tune. Both done on the same day. Find me a bolt-on car with an arrow and I will run it for real world results.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy353/pdv1976/20150616_124903_zpsivvmeh1s.jpg

[Jack B]

Arrow uses the stock pcm and reflashs it. It is unlikely the car would idle with a totally stock pcm.



BJG.. Looks like you can either use the Arrow or the stock pcm for the H/C pkg. you can switch between them for the yearly rituals :)

[Steve M]

One of the big things I see when people complain about HPTuners points to an unwillingness to learn how to use the software. That just seems to be the Viper community in general...this is just not a very hands-on group (my opinion, nothing more). If you aren't willing to learn how to use the editor and scanner, then you are leaving a lot on the table, and it might not be the best purchase for you. My car has thrown a couple random codes, but when it happens, I open up the scanner, pull the codes, and figure out what's going on. A few times it has been a loose gas cap, once was a code related to the battery when I replaced it, and there have been a few others that I induced myself. In every single case, I was able to fix the problem, reset the codes, and move on without having to go running to a dealership to make sure there wasn't a bigger issue. You can also turn the codes completely off with the editor if you so desire, including O2 sensor codes (important for guys without cats and/or headers). The tools are all there, but you have to be willing to use them. The HPT guys have also released a beta version of the scanner that includes the throttle relearn procedure, so it now doesn't even require you going to the dealership anymore to do the initial install.

That said, HPTuners doesn't have the source code; Arrow does. The HPT guys have had to reverse engineer everything, and for that reason, you'll never have access to absolutely every single parameter available in the code. You have access to enough to do pretty much anything you'd want within reason though...there are guys that have run 400+ shots of nitrous, and some guys that have had at least some success tuning FI with HPT. Is it perfect? No, but it's pretty darn good IMO. Is it plug and play? No, and that's a big turn off for a lot of people. These cars don't tune themselves. For those guys, they can turn to Arrow and get a 90-95% solution that requires nothing more than a trip to the dealership, but they also have to be willing to accept the lack of flexibility that comes along with a canned tune.

My $0.02, probably worth less.

[pdv25]

One of the big things I see when people complain about HPTuners points to an unwillingness to learn how to use the software. That just seems to be the Viper community in general...this is just not a very hands-on group (my opinion, nothing more). If you aren't willing to learn how to use the editor and scanner, then you are leaving a lot on the table, and it might not be the best purchase for you. My car has thrown a couple random codes, but when it happens, I open up the scanner, pull the codes, and figure out what's going on. A few times it has been a loose gas cap, once was a code related to the battery when I replaced it, and there have been a few others that I induced myself. In every single case, I was able to fix the problem, reset the codes, and move on without having to go running to a dealership to make sure there wasn't a bigger issue. You can also turn the codes completely off with the editor if you so desire, including O2 sensor codes (important for guys without cats and/or headers). The tools are all there, but you have to be willing to use them. The HPT guys have also released a beta version of the scanner that includes the throttle relearn procedure, so it now doesn't even require you going to the dealership anymore to do the initial install.

That said, HPTuners doesn't have the source code; Arrow does. The HPT guys have had to reverse engineer everything, and for that reason, you'll never have access to absolutely every single parameter available in the code. You have access to enough to do pretty much anything you'd want within reason though...there are guys that have run 400+ shots of nitrous, and some guys that have had at least some success tuning FI with HPT. Is it perfect? No, but it's pretty darn good IMO. Is it plug and play? No, and that's a big turn off for a lot of people. These cars don't tune themselves. For those guys, they can turn to Arrow and get a 90-95% solution that requires nothing more than a trip to the dealership, but they also have to be willing to accept the lack of flexibility that comes along with a canned tune.

My $0.02, probably worth less.

Well said!!!

Arrow tune has to be able to work in all types of weather and altitudes which leaves power on the table.

For those wanted to extract every single bit of power, HP tuners is the way to go Just my opinion.

[Bleed viper]

LOL....my thoughts too. I want to do the PCM, but my local dealers freak me out. I just know the programming will be Chinese math to them......

This is what bothers me too. I don't have a dealership very close that I trust to do this for me. I will call the one in Bluffton and see if they have a clue how to do this.

[zzmike]

I come to the Viper community after being in the LS world for the past few decades, so prepare for possibly very newb-like questions.

Can we access the camshaft parameters within the calibration with HPT? It seems like I read in here about someone putting Greg Good heads and a cam in a Gen 5, but had to retreat, because the HPT was not able to calibrate the tables required to turn off camshaft control.

Is HPT done with unlocking more areas of the stock cal? The more control, the better, IMHO.

Is there knowledge sharing for those willing to tune their cars? I would hate to be stuck and reach out for help only to find myself hearing about how secret everything is.

I have been deeply considering the VE/Arrow route, just because there does not seem to be a lot of tuning-related subject matter here, but was kind of holding back a bit to see if VE actually does come out with H/C/N2O option that has been mentioned on a few occasions, and also to see if more folks gravitate toward flashing their own PCMs. This can't be worse than tuning those E38s with a NW102 and a big-assed cam, can it?

[Steve M]

I come to the Viper community after being in the LS world for the past few decades, so prepare for possibly very newb-like questions.

Can we access the camshaft parameters within the calibration with HPT? It seems like I read in here about someone putting Greg Good heads and a cam in a Gen 5, but had to retreat, because the HPT was not able to calibrate the tables required to turn off camshaft control.

Is HPT done with unlocking more areas of the stock cal? The more control, the better, IMHO.

Is there knowledge sharing for those willing to tune their cars? I would hate to be stuck and reach out for help only to find myself hearing about how secret everything is.

I have been deeply considering the VE/Arrow route, just because there does not seem to be a lot of tuning-related subject matter here, but was kind of holding back a bit to see if VE actually does come out with H/C/N2O option that has been mentioned on a few occasions, and also to see if more folks gravitate toward flashing their own PCMs. This can't be worse than tuning those E38s with a NW102 and a big-assed cam, can it?

You can control the exhaust cam timing with HPT, but there doesn't appear to be any performance benefit to altering it from stock, at least not that I've found. As for running a fixed cam, you should be able to do it by just changing the value in the upper left hand box from "1" to "0":

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Cam%20Control_zpsq5ngpqcm.jpg

...but as you have pointed out, there have been a lot of failures reported when trying to do this, and I'm not sure why that is. Keith (HPTuners owner, and the guy responsible for this little project @ HPT) runs a fixed cam in his own Gen 4 without any trouble...he used his own car to help develop the software.

I don't know if HPT is done with Viper development or not (it certainly isn't lining their pockets with cash), but I've got a list of feature requests I'd like to see added posted here:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?53109-Gen-4-(2008-2010)-Viper-Issues-Requests

If you have poked around with an LSx, you'll be underwhelmed by the amount of parameters we have access to with the Viper calibration, but there's certainly enough there to get the job done for most applications. The Viper PCM is unique to this platform and uses its own unique source code, so reverse engineering it was (and still is) a big challenge; the lack of available parameters reflects that.

I'm certainly willing to share my knowledge, but the overwhelming majority of tuners that mess with Vipers are NOT. People were more than willing to help each other out in the LSx world (I came from that world too), but not so much around here, and I'm not sure why that is. I think it is leading to some unnecessary frustration, but it is what it is at this point. Low production numbers and an extremely limited market are probably the biggest drivers behind that.

[zzmike]

Thank for the reply and the feedback. I will head over to the HPT forum and see what folks are saying about it.

[SinasViperTA]

Just to confirm, the "decel pop" is also achievable with HP Tuners, correct?

[KB Viper]

Just to confirm, the "decel pop" is also achievable with HP Tuners, correct?

Correct

[Steve M]

Just to confirm, the "decel pop" is also achievable with HP Tuners, correct?

I'm going to expand on that a bit - you can leave it just like it is stock (on/off RPM and loudness), you can change where it turns on/off in the RPM range (still stock loudness), or turn it off altogether with HPT. Keep in mind that it is also adjustable by gear, so you can have it do different things in different gears if you so desire. The only thing you CAN'T do is make it any louder like Arrow does...you'd need to be able to change the exhaust cam timing under deceleration to do so, and so far, HPTuners doesn't let you do that, although it is a feature I've asked for. You can control the cam just fine anywhere else in the RPM range, just not at idle or under decel.

[Jack B]

Steve

I haven't looked in a while, however, doesn't HPT have the fuel/deaccel settings. On a different note, I just received the link to download the latest version. I am sort of land locked since I now have the Arrow HC pcm.


I'm going to expand on that a bit - you can leave it just like it is stock (on/off RPM and loudness), you can change where it turns on/off in the RPM range (still stock loudness), or turn it off altogether with HPT. Keep in mind that it is also adjustable by gear, so you can have it do different things in different gears if you so desire. The only thing you CAN'T do is make it any louder like Arrow does...you'd need to be able to change the exhaust cam timing under deceleration to do so, and so far, HPTuners doesn't let you do that, although it is a feature I've asked for. You can control the cam just fine anywhere else in the RPM range, just not at idle or under decel.

[Jack B]

As I understand the fixed cam issue, I believe part of the problem is the mechanical marrying of the cam to the oem hardware, that is not a "for sure".



You can control the exhaust cam timing with HPT, but there doesn't appear to be any performance benefit to altering it from stock, at least not that I've found. As for running a fixed cam, you should be able to do it by just changing the value in the upper left hand box from "1" to "0":

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Cam%20Control_zpsq5ngpqcm.jpg

...but as you have pointed out, there have been a lot of failures reported when trying to do this, and I'm not sure why that is. Keith (HPTuners owner, and the guy responsible for this little project @ HPT) runs a fixed cam in his own Gen 4 without any trouble...he used his own car to help develop the software.

I don't know if HPT is done with Viper development or not (it certainly isn't lining their pockets with cash), but I've got a list of feature requests I'd like to see added posted here:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?53109-Gen-4-(2008-2010)-Viper-Issues-Requests

If you have poked around with an LSx, you'll be underwhelmed by the amount of parameters we have access to with the Viper calibration, but there's certainly enough there to get the job done for most applications. The Viper PCM is unique to this platform and uses its own unique source code, so reverse engineering it was (and still is) a big challenge; the lack of available parameters reflects that.

I'm certainly willing to share my knowledge, but the overwhelming majority of tuners that mess with Vipers are NOT. People were more than willing to help each other out in the LSx world (I came from that world too), but not so much around here, and I'm not sure why that is. I think it is leading to some unnecessary frustration, but it is what it is at this point. Low production numbers and an extremely limited market are probably the biggest drivers behind that.

[Nine Ball]

I don't know if HPT is done with Viper development or not (it certainly isn't lining their pockets with cash)

If someone would figure out, and SHARE information on getting HPT to run with a 2-Bar MAP sensor, so that it could handle 14 psi boost levels, then they would sell quite a few more. Especially over time, as more boosted cars are built. 14 psi on a Viper is usually good for 900-1000 rwhp, which is about perfect.

[1.8t]

^ Couldn't agree more. I feel like HPT is on the verge of unlocking a select few more features that would "blow up" their platform for the Gen V market. They have already done the dirty work establishing the foundation, just further polishing the package would give the stock PCM enough power to handle 99% of what any Gen V owner would throw at it.

[Steve M]

Steve

I haven't looked in a while, however, doesn't HPT have the fuel/deaccel settings. On a different note, I just received the link to download the latest version. I am sort of land locked since I now have the Arrow HC pcm.

Correct...that's what I was referring to. For DFCO (deceleration fuel cut-off, i.e. no popping), you can enable/disable it by vehicle speed sensors (VSS) and RPM. Going from memory, I think it is 4 tables total - enable by RPM, enable by VSS, disable by RPM, and disable by VSS. Each of those tables is set up by gear (1st through 6th, neutral, and reverse). I know how to get it to do what I want it to do, minus making the popping louder...that's where I've asked HPT to give us the table/tables that control the cam under decel and at idle. The base angle table we have access to now doesn't affect cam operation under either of those conditions.

[zzmike]

If someone would figure out, and SHARE information on getting HPT to run with a 2-Bar MAP sensor, so that it could handle 14 psi boost levels, then they would sell quite a few more. Especially over time, as more boosted cars are built. 14 psi on a Viper is usually good for 900-1000 rwhp, which is about perfect.


Good point. If we can turn off airflow rationality within HPT, maybe it is possible to ignore the MAP, and then scale the MAF and injectors to 50% like we did back in the good old days to give ourselves the headroom to do this.

My biggest concern currently is to figure a means to make a G5 work with HPT and a fixed cam. Once that issue is solved, we will see more folks heading in the reflash direction vs a different PCM with a canned tune, methinks.

Steve M, I saw your posts over on the HPT forum, thanks for your efforts. It will make it a better end product if they can find a means to incorporate your suggestions.

[Jack B]

lf you add fuel at the cutoff, you should get your pop. That worked on the G2 we with SCT.




Correct...that's what I was referring to. For DFCO (deceleration fuel cut-off, i.e. no popping), you can enable/disable it by vehicle speed sensors (VSS) and RPM. Going from memory, I think it is 4 tables total - enable by RPM, enable by VSS, disable by RPM, and disable by VSS. Each of those tables is set up by gear (1st through 6th, neutral, and reverse). I know how to get it to do what I want it to do, minus making the popping louder...that's where I've asked HPT to give us the table/tables that control the cam under decel and at idle. The base angle table we have access to now doesn't affect cam operation under either of those conditions.

[Jack B]

Does the new beta enable the scanner.



^ Couldn't agree more. I feel like HPT is on the verge of unlocking a select few more features that would "blow up" their platform for the Gen V market. They have already done the dirty work establishing the foundation, just further polishing the package would give the stock PCM enough power to handle 99% of what any Gen V owner would throw at it.

[VetteFish]

To throw something else in the mix. Does anyone have feedback on differences between HPT and ARROW on 91 octane?

I'm in CA where we only have 91. I'd like to run the Arrow but, since it's optimized for 93, I don't feel very comfortable pushing the car and relying on knock sensors to just pull back timing. I don't mind throwing in some 100 oct at the track (I do anway), but for blasting around on the weekends I don't want to have to do a mix every time.

I also like the ability to turn it back to stock for warranty and emissions.

Deciding between Arrow, getting a separate stock PCM and having it tuned with HPT, or leaving it all alone. Would appreciate all your feedback too.

[Jack B]

Pretty sure, the arrow stage 1 tune is based on 91.

I can tell you, the Stage 2 HC pcm has more advance than the stock pcm by quite a bit, some of that probably comes from removal of the nannies.



To throw something else in the mix. Does anyone have feedback on differences between HPT and ARROW on 91 octane?

I'm in CA where we only have 91. I'd like to run the Arrow but, since it's optimized for 93, I don't feel very comfortable pushing the car and relying on knock sensors to just pull back timing. I don't mind throwing in some 100 oct at the track (I do anway), but for blasting around on the weekends I don't want to have to do a mix every time.

I also like the ability to turn it back to stock for warranty and emissions.

Deciding between Arrow, getting a separate stock PCM and having it tuned with HPT, or leaving it all alone. Would appreciate all your feedback too.

[cashcorn]

I checked into this. The arrow stage 1 tune is based on 93. 91 will work, but will pull timing. That's another reason to go hptune if 91 is your only option. However, you can always mix..

[Rapidrezults]

To throw something else in the mix. Does anyone have feedback on differences between HPT and ARROW on 91 octane?

I'm in CA where we only have 91. I'd like to run the Arrow but, since it's optimized for 93, I don't feel very comfortable pushing the car and relying on knock sensors to just pull back timing. I don't mind throwing in some 100 oct at the track (I do anway), but for blasting around on the weekends I don't want to have to do a mix every time.

I also like the ability to turn it back to stock for warranty and emissions.

Deciding between Arrow, getting a separate stock PCM and having it tuned with HPT, or leaving it all alone. Would appreciate all your feedback too.

I blasted mine with 91 in the heat of the summer on the street with absolutely no issues. Hit up Kosherstogie and ask him, I'm not sure he's even used anything but 91 and I know he's had quite a bit of fun with his TA and Arrow PCM. :)

[zzmike]

I am ready to pull the trigger on HPT. If I get the credits today, do I have the ability perform the throttle relearn in the scanner?

[LmeaViper]

Here are my results. Original vs a touch up tune. Both done on the same day. Find me a bolt-on car with an arrow and I will run it for real world results.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy353/pdv1976/20150616_124903_zpsivvmeh1s.jpg

A 12.5X AFR is within the acceptable range for our cars?
thks

[Jack B]

12.6 is the sweet on a NA G5, however, the G5 runs 1/2 pt richer on a dyno. I have a wb installed and this is consistent on three diff dynos and multiple tracks.


A 12.5X AFR is within the acceptable range for our cars?
thks

[Steve M]

I am ready to pull the trigger on HPT. If I get the credits today, do I have the ability perform the throttle relearn in the scanner?

You'll need to send an email to HPT Support to request a link to the beta version of the software. The CD that ships with the interface does not have the beta version of the software you'll need to tune a Gen 4/5 Viper.

[SolidViper]

When buying the hp tuner there is three base choices you need to choose from GM,Ford and Dodge. Does it matter which one you choose from for tunning the viper ? Or can you choose GM and buy the credits and you can tune any car from the brands above that HP tuner support. I got confused when i wanted to order hp tuner tuning device.

[Steve M]

You'll need 20 Dodge credits...do NOT buy anything other than Dodge credits if you intend to tune a Viper.

You can buy additional credits for any of the other brands if you wish, but they can only be used on those platforms (e.g. you'd need GM credits to tune a Corvette, or Ford credits to tune a Mustang). The Viper is the only one that requires so many credits though.

[zzmike]

You'll need to send an email to HPT Support to request a link to the beta version of the software. The CD that ships with the interface does not have the beta version of the software you'll need to tune a Gen 4/5 Viper.

I already have an interface, and have purchased enough credits over time to unlock many GM vehicles, I have tuned stuff for lots of folks in the GM world over the years.

Can I just use the same interface and serial number to purchase the 20 Dodge credits? Or is that a question for Bill/Keith at HPT?

[SolidViper]

I already have an interface, and have purchased enough credits over time to unlock many GM vehicles, I have tuned stuff for lots of folks in the GM world over the years.

Can I just use the same interface and serial number to purchase the 20 Dodge credits? Or is that a question for Bill/Keith at HPT?

Trying to figure this out send a mail to support and made a thread on the forums but didn't get the answer yet . I already ordered the GM VCM Suite and wonder if i bought dodge credits can i tune a viper with them ?
If you find out please share or any tuner that is using hp tuners knows.

[Steve M]

I already have an interface, and have purchased enough credits over time to unlock many GM vehicles, I have tuned stuff for lots of folks in the GM world over the years.

Can I just use the same interface and serial number to purchase the 20 Dodge credits? Or is that a question for Bill/Keith at HPT?

Yes, you most certainly can. Just order 20 Dodge credits and they should be able to apply it to your current interface. If I'm not mistaken, each interface can hold up to 999 credits. The only thing you can't do is convert one type of credit to another type - as in, if you had 20 GM credits, they can't/won't convert those to Dodge credits so you could tune a Viper.


Trying to figure this out send a mail to support and made a thread on the forums but didn't get the answer yet . I already ordered the GM VCM Suite and wonder if i bought dodge credits can i tune a viper with them ?
If you find out please share or any tuner that is using hp tuners knows.

When you get the interface, you'll see that you have a sticker on it with a serial number. Go to the HPTuners home page:

http://www.hptuners.com/

You'll want to log in to your customer account using your serial number. If you don't have an account already, you'll need to create one here:

https://www.hptuners.com/customers/newcust.php

Once that is all said and done and you are able to login to your customer account page, you should see a link for the most up-to-date release of 2.24. That unfortunately won't let you tune a Viper, so you need to send an email to support@hptuners.com and request that they add a link to the 2.25 beta software to your customer account. Just make sure you give them your serial number in the email so they know which account to apply this to. The link provided will give you access to the latest and greatest beta software (both the editor and scanner), and is updated every day as they add/change features.

Hopefully that helps...bottom line: for a Viper, you can only tune with HPTuners v2.25. The throttle relearn functionality is also only available in the latest 2.25 beta scanner. Let me know if you need help finding it or making it work.

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

Don't get into the game of comparing peak hp numbers across the world, on different dynos. What matters is before/after gains, of the same car, on the same dyno. The net hp gain, not the peak value. HP Tuners certainly offers more custom tune potential, especially for those in elevation or climate challenged areas. But, this is only when in the hands of a capable tuner, that knows what he is doing with the Gen 5 Viper.

hehe mine has never made more than 997whp and we both know its making way more!

[SolidViper]

Yes, you most certainly can. Just order 20 Dodge credits and they should be able to apply it to your current interface. If I'm not mistaken, each interface can hold up to 999 credits. The only thing you can't do is convert one type of credit to another type - as in, if you had 20 GM credits, they can't/won't convert those to Dodge credits so you could tune a Viper.


When you get the interface, you'll see that you have a sticker on it with a serial number. Go to the HPTuners home page:

http://www.hptuners.com/

You'll want to log in to your customer account using your serial number. If you don't have an account already, you'll need to create one here:

https://www.hptuners.com/customers/newcust.php

Once that is all said and done and you are able to login to your customer account page, you should see a link for the most up-to-date release of 2.24. That unfortunately won't let you tune a Viper, so you need to send an email to support@hptuners.com and request that they add a link to the 2.25 beta software to your customer account. Just make sure you give them your serial number in the email so they know which account to apply this to. The link provided will give you access to the latest and greatest beta software (both the editor and scanner), and is updated every day as they add/change features.

Hopefully that helps...bottom line: for a Viper, you can only tune with HPTuners v2.25. The throttle relearn functionality is also only available in the latest 2.25 beta scanner. Let me know if you need help finding it or making it work.

Great !!
thanks for the explanation :)

[Jack B]

I had a GM interface and merely added the viper credits, nothing changed.



Trying to figure this out send a mail to support and made a thread on the forums but didn't get the answer yet . I already ordered the GM VCM Suite and wonder if i bought dodge credits can i tune a viper with them ?
If you find out please share or any tuner that is using hp tuners knows.

[XTREME SUPERCARS]

Here are my results. Original vs a touch up tune. Both done on the same day. Find me a bolt-on car with an arrow and I will run it for real world results.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy353/pdv1976/20150616_124903_zpsivvmeh1s.jpg

I'm happy to run mine down anytime you want
it's all stock except Arrow controller, Headers and exhaust
Thanks
Wayne

[pdv25]

I'm happy to run mine down anytime you want
it's all stock except Arrow controller, Headers and exhaust
Thanks
Wayne

That's awesome Wayne!!! We can meet next Sunday morning at the same spot you ran the yellow viper. We can have TRC record it. Let me know if that's fine with you?

[Steve M]

That's awesome Wayne!!! We can meet next Sunday morning at the same spot you ran the yellow viper. We can have TRC record it. Let me know if that's fine with you?

Definitely would like to see this race.

[XTREME SUPERCARS]

That's awesome Wayne!!! We can meet next Sunday morning at the same spot you ran the yellow viper. We can have TRC record it. Let me know if that's fine with you?


Sounds good give me a call when you have time and work it out
Thanks
Wayne

[pdv25]

Sounds good give me a call when you have time and work it out
Thanks
Wayne

Will do bud! I'll call you tomorrow.

[Dave1968]

I ran HPTuners and the Arrow unit on my old TA. HPTuners worked fine but I would get codes from time to time. Switched to the Arrow controller and the overall calibration was much cleaner and the car was much more consistent. The stage 2 calibration is really good as well.

I have them in stock and ready to ship if anyone needs one.

Andy

Hi Andy. Could you PM me pls. with your contact phone no. at the shop. I would like to talk to you about an HP tuners setup for my 2014 srt. Thx.

Dave

[timberwolf]

Hi Andy. Could you PM me pls. with your contact phone no. at the shop. I would like to talk to you about an HP tuners setup for my 2014 srt. Thx.

Dave

Andy and Viper exchange carry the Arrow PCM, not HP Tuners.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Another thing no one mentioned is that HP Tuners will 100% void your powertrain warranty if something goes wrong, whereas (from what I gather) the arrow racing ECU does not alter your warranty eligibility. I confirmed with a Viper Tech at my dealer, however, not sure if I should get that in writing just to protect my ass

[outnumbered]

Did the race above ever take place?

[Stealth]

Another thing no one mentioned is that HP Tuners will 100% void your powertrain warranty if something goes wrong, whereas (from what I gather) the arrow racing ECU does not alter your warranty eligibility. I confirmed with a Viper Tech at my dealer, however, not sure if I should get that in writing just to protect my ass

While your dealer will have the first say here, this information is not entirely accurate. There is a federal law--Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act--or something like this which governs this area. The mod must have caused or substantially contributed to the failure for warranty coverage to be denied. I have the Arrow PCM and if this does in fact cause a problem, then this could pose a warranty issue. (unlikely, but always possible). I feel that the Arrow PCM is the safer alternative based on Arrow's and Dick W's involvement with the Viper powertrain. The Arrow PCM is also likely much less flexible than the HP Tuner's product.

OP, Best of luck with your decisions.

[Dave1968]

Andy and Viper exchange carry the Arrow PCM, not HP Tuners.

Thx for info. Does anyone here sell the HP tuner?

[FLATOUT]

Thx for info. Does anyone here sell the HP tuner?

Thanks Timberwolf, and yes he is correct we only sell the Arrow ECU.

[SRT BILL]

Andy, are their two different versions for the Gen5?

[Steve M]

Thx for info. Does anyone here sell the HP tuner?

http://www.unleashedtuning.com/hp-tuners-vcm-suite-standard-gen-4-or-5-viper/

[Dave1968]

So I finally got the whole HP tuners thing figured out. lol. Where then, can I get the canned tune if you will, for my stock 2014 SRT Viper that is the alternative to the Arrow Pcm. I believe the tests showed it was very close to the Arrow performance.

[Ninjazx71]

So I finally got the whole HP tuners thing figured out. lol. Where then, can I get the canned tune if you will, for my stock 2014 SRT Viper that is the alternative to the Arrow Pcm. I believe the tests showed it was very close to the Arrow performance.

See Steve M's post above... that price includes the tuner, the 20 credits and the tune from Torrie at Unleashed Tuning.

[donk_316]

So does that $1000 include just the canned tune or do you send logs after a while and he modifies the canned tune to your car.

[Ninjazx71]

So does that $1000 include just the canned tune or do you send logs after a while and he modifies the canned tune to your car.

IIRC you can send the logs to them and they will tweak it as needed to get it dialed in for your specific car...

[donk_316]

So honestly, the HP Tuner is the same price as the Arrow controller but has more value as it's also a scanner, logger and obviously you can continue to tune with it.

Sounds like Arrow needs a price adjustment.

[KB Viper]

So honestly, the HP Tuner is the same price as the Arrow controller but has more value as it's also a scanner, logger and obviously you can continue to tune with it.

Sounds like Arrow needs a price adjustment.

I disagree. I had HP tuners for 7k miles and my car would throw a code almost every three weeks when I had it and car would go limp. Arrow can't be modified but has given me 9k miles with zero issues.
Arrow controller-- $1100
Dealer install cost-- $250 (we get bent over in Cali)
Knowing your car will preform like stock with more power-- Priceless!

[rlhay2]

I disagree. I had HP tuners for 7k miles and my car would throw a code almost every three weeks when I had it and car would go limp.

Using who's tune?

HPTuners is continually refining their program and as tuners learn more about the software and the Venom ECU, they are getting exponentially better.
It does suck being the test mule, but that is the nature of progress.

The Arrow ECU is designed by the guys who designed the OEM ECU, it is damn good! But it does have a low ceiling.

HPTuners does not have the low ceiling but it also does not have the years of development in the background...yet.
If you must have a "perfect" solution today, the best choice is Arrow.
If you are patient and like having choices, HPTuners may be the better choice.
I think the next 12 months are likely to be very interesting for the Gen IV and Gen V crowd with the recent results using HPTuners.

You need only go back ~13 years and review the infamous LS1edit vs HPTuners debate: This one is very similar.

[KB Viper]

Using who's tune?

HPTuners is continually refining their program and as tuners learn more about the software and the Venom ECU, they are getting exponentially better.
It does suck being the test mule, but that is the nature of progress.

The Arrow ECU is designed by the guys who designed the OEM ECU, it is damn good! But it does have a low ceiling.

HPTuners does not have the low ceiling but it also does not have the years of development in the background...yet.
If you must have a "perfect" solution today, the best choice is Arrow.
If you are patient and like having choices, HPTuners may be the better choice.
I think the next 12 months are likely to be very interesting for the Gen IV and Gen V crowd with the recent results using HPTuners.

You need only go back ~13 years and review the infamous LS1edit vs HPTuners debate: This one is very similar.

sorry, i won't be throwing any tuners/friends under the bus. i can tell you I've talked to numerous gen v owners with HP tuners and at one point or another they have had a light/limp mode issue and the fix is turning off the deficiency reporting for the specific code which doesn't "fix" the problem. i do want to say i am a fan of HP tuners for my Chevy's which have had no issues.

at the end of the day you are correct as far as options are concerned but i have heads/cam on my car and this arrow controller for me is the best option because I don't want a 100k car with check engine lights and 650 whp all motor is plenty. i do wish i could lower the idle a smidgen and add the decel pop back...

[The_Ruski_Driver]

What if you wanted to sell your Arrow PCM down the road? Can it be returned for some kind of core refund? Sold private party? Or is it just completely worthless now

[Dave1968]

I disagree. I had HP tuners for 7k miles and my car would throw a code almost every three weeks when I had it and car would go limp. Arrow can't be modified but has given me 9k miles with zero issues.
Arrow controller-- $1100
Dealer install cost-- $250 (we get bent over in Cali)
Knowing your car will preform like stock with more power-- Priceless!

Did you ever find out what the problem was? Did it throw the same code or different ones?

[donk_316]

Would be cool if arrow allowed you to send your ECU into them for a flash. Instead of buying whole new hardware.

[99RT10]

What if you wanted to sell your Arrow PCM down the road? Can it be returned for some kind of core refund? Sold private party? Or is it just completely worthless now

I believe it is locked on to one car only thru the VIN. So no.

[Ninjazx71]

I believe it is locked on to one car only thru the VIN. So no.

Unless the GenV is different from the GenIV, this isn't true. The VIN is hardcoded, however that won't effect the drive-ability of the car. This apparently CANNOT be changed. On the GenIV's the only thing you need to be careful of is that the window distance to roll up is different between the Vert and Coupe. So you can swap PCM's from Coupe to Coupe, or Vert to Vert without an issue. Going between a Coupe and Vert though the windows won't close properly.

[aNinjaneer]

Unless the GenV is different from the GenIV, this isn't true. The VIN is hardcoded, however that won't effect the drive-ability of the car. This apparently CANNOT be changed. On the GenIV's the only thing you need to be careful of is that the window distance to roll up is different between the Vert and Coupe. So you can swap PCM's from Coupe to Coupe, or Vert to Vert without an issue. Going between a Coupe and Vert though the windows won't close properly.

Nope. With the Gen Vs, if you swap ECUs from one car to another, you risk locking the radio and throwing all sorts of lights on the dash. The different modules in the car pass the VIN number between them to ensure nothing is stolen. Sometimes it will not give you errors until the battery is disconnected.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

That kinda sucks then. It's like spending a grand on hookers and blo... Hmm... maybe reconsidering my direction. If they offered some kinda 30-40% buyback it wouldnt be so bad. My plans were to do first round of mods and make 600 WHP with the arrow pcm and go FI next year, but if i'm gonna blow 1200-1250 for something that will be worthless down the road it seems like a waste. If it were 600 bucks I'd order one this instant lol

[donk_316]

Side note: I've emailed Arrow about flashing a stock PCM with their stage 1 tune. Still waiting on a reply. Instead of buying the PCM with the tune. LJust don't see the point on doubling up on hardware.

And the HP Tuner thing needs a little more time to mature. I don't want to be a test mule.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Side note: I've emailed Arrow about flashing a stock PCM with their stage 1 tune. Still waiting on a reply. Instead of buying the PCM with the tune. LJust don't see the point on doubling up on hardware.

And the HP Tuner thing needs a little more time to mature. I don't want to be a test mule.

Good idea! I'd be interested as well, maybe cut the cost in half

[mjorgensen]

Side note: I've emailed Arrow about flashing a stock PCM with their stage 1 tune. Still waiting on a reply. Instead of buying the PCM with the tune. LJust don't see the point on doubling up on hardware.

And the HP Tuner thing needs a little more time to mature. I don't want to be a test mule.

I doubt they will do this, part of the original issue when releasing the PCM was modifying the existing hardware so they had to sell an "off road" controller to get around this.

[rlhay2]

I doubt they will do this, part of the original issue when releasing the PCM was modifying the existing hardware so they had to sell an "off road" controller to get around this.

Arrow will not be modifying compliant ECUs to a potentially non-compliant status. With all the scrutiny the VW Autogroup is under now, every car manufacturer is walking the straight and narrow.

[Jack B]

There are dozens of HPT users on the forum, you would be far from a test mule. If you are NA, it is hard to beat, plus, the price is right.



Side note: I've emailed Arrow about flashing a stock PCM with their stage 1 tune. Still waiting on a reply. Instead of buying the PCM with the tune. LJust don't see the point on doubling up on hardware.

And the HP Tuner thing needs a little more time to mature. I don't want to be a test mule.

[RPM9000]

I had an Arrow PCM in my GenIV ACR when I bought it. It lasted about 1 month then it went out. The alternator (which is controlled by the PCM) quit charging. It was sent bck to Arrow by Tomball Dodge but they would not or could not repair it. So I had 2 options, buy another Arrow PCM or go with the HP Tuner. I went with the HP Tuner. I have been happy with it so far.

[donk_316]

Story goes that Arrow will not flash a stock computer and you can only get the stage 1 PCM from one of their 3 dealers.

[donk_316]

Another clarification from Arrow.

If you buy their Stage 1 PCM and eventually want to go with a stage 2 (heads and cam) then they will put the stage 2 tune into your stage 1 PCM.

So once you have an Arrow PCM, it will still be useable if you upgrade to stage 2.

[Crotalidae]

This is good to know. I assume if we use one of the certified dealers this included in the price???


Another clarification from Arrow.

If you buy their Stage 1 PCM and eventually want to go with a stage 2 (heads and cam) then they will put the stage 2 tune into your stage 1 PCM.

So once you have an Arrow PCM, it will still be useable if you upgrade to stage 2.

[donk_316]

Yes I have asked that before. If you're buying the stage 2 upgrade they will flash your Arrow PCM with the stage 2 calibration also.

[Rapidrezults]

Either way, you will still have a wasted piece of hardware, either the OEM PCM or the Stage 1. In the stage 2 package they just reflash your OEM PCM as part of the package because you will never revert back anyway. It's cheaper to go Stage 2 from the get go either way you look at it. Unless there is a waived fee somewhere in there for those that have Stage 1 PCM.

[donk_316]

Are you sure they can flash the stock PCM? A few posts earlier I have emailed arrow and they say they can't do that.

Mayen it's a case of "we don't want to flash a stage 1 onto the stock PCM but we will do the stage 2" as opposed to "can't"

[Rapidrezults]

Are you sure they can flash the stock PCM? A few posts earlier I have emailed arrow and they say they can't do that.

Mayen it's a case of "we don't want to flash a stage 1 onto the stock PCM but we will do the stage 2" as opposed to "can't"

I think it's more a case of want than can't as you say. I know for the Stage 2 builds they send your OEM PCM out to Arrow for reflash and then it is sent back. This is done primarily because the PCM is useless after the Stage 2 build, whereas with a Stage 1 the ability to swap back and forth is possible. Mine was done this way for sure. At the end of the day it's just a piece of hardware with software loaded on to it. All of the hardware is the same.

[Steve M]

Are you sure they can flash the stock PCM? A few posts earlier I have emailed arrow and they say they can't do that.

Mayen it's a case of "we don't want to flash a stage 1 onto the stock PCM but we will do the stage 2" as opposed to "can't"

Yes...they can flash a stock PCM. That's what they did on Jack B's car if I'm not mistaken.

[mjorgensen]

The Stage1 PCM is sold as an off road controller and cannot be flashed into your stock PCM. Stage2 cars are all done with the stock PCM being flashed for the solid cam configuration because as stated above you cannot just swap it back. If you wanted to use your Stage1 PCM to upgrade to Stage2 they can flash it, but your stock PCM will still be useless.

[XSnake]

Unless the GenV is different from the GenIV, this isn't true. The VIN is hardcoded, however that won't effect the drive-ability of the car. This apparently CANNOT be changed.

It can be from what my local tech says and has done for some.

[MoparBoyy]

Unless the GenV is different from the GenIV, this isn't true. The VIN is hardcoded, however that won't effect the drive-ability of the car. This apparently CANNOT be changed. On the GenIV's the only thing you need to be careful of is that the window distance to roll up is different between the Vert and Coupe. So you can swap PCM's from Coupe to Coupe, or Vert to Vert without an issue. Going between a Coupe and Vert though the windows won't close properly.

you can flash a new VIN over and old VIN. I've done it. Now I have not done it on Gen5 controller, but i've done it on almost every other Mopar PCM, including a Venom 1.

[Eddieg]

I would actually prefer no decal pop, we had it both ways with my car and HPT

Was the decel pop done with hp tuners? Does anyone happen to have any sound clips or videos of this? Looking to get some good noise but I don’t want it to be obnoxious. Also, what has to be done for the decel parameters? Thank you

[Steve M]

Was the decel pop done with hp tuners? Does anyone happen to have any sound clips or videos of this? Looking to get some good noise but I don’t want it to be obnoxious. Also, what has to be done for the decel parameters? Thank you

What do you want done? Is someone else tuning it for you, or do you actually own the interface and have the file you want to modify? The parameters to adjust are pretty straightforward.

[Eddieg]

What do you want done? Is someone else tuning it for you, or do you actually own the interface and have the file you want to modify? The parameters to adjust are pretty straightforward.

I’m trying to figure out if I can accomplish the same decel pop with hp tuners, this will guide me in the detection of how I will get the car tuned. Either hp tuners or arrow

Thank you.

[outnumbered]

I’m trying to figure out if I can accomplish the same decel pop with hp tuners, this will guide me in the detection of how I will get the car tuned. Either hp tuners or arrow

Thank you.

My Tuner (Torrie) says it can be done with HP. Much more so than they could do 4 years ago.

[dewilmoth]

The Viper world’s infatuation with “decel pop” is mind boggling to me.

[imzoomintoo]

The Viper world’s infatuation with “decel pop” is mind boggling to me.

Just another thing I love about the Viper:)

[stradman]

The Viper world’s infatuation with “decel pop” is mind boggling to me.

C'mon you have to admit a good decel pop is coooool...:orange:

[SRT_BluByU]

yes it is... the jag f-type has a nice decel also

[Stealth78]

I’m trying to figure out if I can accomplish the same decel pop with hp tuners, this will guide me in the detection of how I will get the car tuned. Either hp tuners or arrow

Thank you.

Torrie McPhail recently tuned my GenIV with HPT. I have a nice decel pop!

[imzoomintoo]

Will HP tune void your warranty?

[sadil]

Decel pops rule. The stock car really mutes the pops even with the stock tune.

[Steve M]

Will HP tune void your warranty?

If they know what to look for, yes it will.

[parabs]

The Viper world’s infatuation with “decel pop” is mind boggling to me.

Count me in as one of the afflicted.

[Vipes]

Arrow tune has to be able to work in all types of weather and altitudes which leaves power on the table.

For those wanted to extract every single bit of power, HP tuners is the way to go Just my opinion.


Can somebody elaborate on this statement? When you tune with HP for a specific climate do you still have the stock protections if you encounter different conditions such as the ecu automatically pulling timing? This is an old thread and HP tuners has been out for about 4 years now, has anybody hurt their motor with HP tuners?

[Steve M]

Can somebody elaborate on this statement? When you tune with HP for a specific climate do you still have the stock protections if you encounter different conditions such as the ecu automatically pulling timing? This is an old thread and HP tuners has been out for about 4 years now, has anybody hurt their motor with HP tuners?

You can leave all stock protections in place if you so desire. You can make them pull even more timing. You can make it pull timing sooner. The opposite is true as well.

I still haven't popped my motor yet, and I have the crappy Gen 4 cast pistons. I've been using HPT for the better part of 4.5 years at this point. You can see what I trap in the 1/4 mile as well, and that's without headers at around ~3,600 lbs race weight.

HPTuners is a tool; nothing more, nothing less. The skill of the person wielding it is what matters most. The calibration you start with is stock, and you can always go back. I have a couple different tunes I run depending on what I'm doing. 99% of the time I run it on my street tune, and the other 1% is when I go to the drag strip at which point I remove most of the protections. If you are going through a third party for tuning, you might be a bit more limited, but that's between you and them.

[Vipes]

That makes sense, thanks Steve!

[cubeman]

Could have sworn I posted in this thread but since it's bumped I figure I would. Arrow PCM is a no-go from me. Cold weather driving? Rough Idle and throw Idle Air Sensor codes here in late fall / early winter in NY. You produce negligible power when bolting stuff on and although the decel pop does rule, it'd be nice to have the option to turn it off. My biggest complaint about Arrow? The codes it turns off. It turns off voltage codes for the O2 Sensors. We all know the Arrow PCM disables other codes for Long tubes BUT there's no need to disable Voltage codes when the car still depends on those O2 Sensors to run. My viper burned two O2 Sensor wires causing it to constantly think it was running lean but we had no data to figure that out. We had to swap in an OEM PCM and immediately threw the voltage code showing the passenger side O2's were burnt to a crisp.

With HPTuners? I leave the voltage codes on, and turn off other pesky codes and have better drivability when it comes to the temperatures outside. The best thing of all? Produce much more power.

[est8esq]

I have a brand new, unused, unopened Arrow PCM for sale. If you’re interested, pm me. I went w/ a private tuner and never used it. You can send back and have it flashed to your vin for few hundred dollars.

[Matt Dillon]

Will HP tune void your warranty?

I've heard it Will! That's WHY I Haven't done it yet

[cubeman]

Arrow voids your warranty as well, Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Any change from factory PCM is an insta-powertrain void if the dealer tells FCA or a Rep is there at the time when your vehicle is in service and decides to tell FCA.

[ViperGeorge]

Arrow voids your warranty as well, Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Any change from factory PCM is an insta-powertrain void if the dealer tells FCA or a Rep is there at the time when your vehicle is in service and decides to tell FCA.

I don't think that is entirely true. There were cases (3 I think) where FCA denied warranty claims on bad engines because of the Arrow controller. However, the blown engines resulted from the bearing issue and had nothing to do with the controller. I believe they eventually relented and did cover some or all of the cost that the owners originally had to lay out. Remember the Magnusen law says that they must demonstrate the aftermarket part caused the failure.

[cubeman]

I don't think that is entirely true. There were cases (3 I think) where FCA denied warranty claims on bad engines because of the Arrow controller. However, the blown engines resulted from the bearing issue and had nothing to do with the controller. I believe they eventually relented and did cover some or all of the cost that the owners originally had to lay out. Remember the Magnusen law says that they must demonstrate the aftermarket part caused the failure.

Modifying your ECU and how the engine preforms is a powertrain void. A known internal defect of the engine is a separate story. If you come into a dealer with a modified ECU Challenger/Charger/Durango 2015+ you will throw a non-MIL Light code P1500. That code is to check for aftermarket ECU/Flash. If confirmed, the dealer notifies FCA and a restriction is placed on the powertrain warranty (Void). If you have any claim north of $1000 and it triggers a Chrysler Rep and they see P1500, powertrain is void. The Rep can decide if they want to tell or void it depending if they believe that was the cause of it but if you make the engine operate outside of factory spec, if it fails you can easily say because they made the engine preform higher then we originally sold it.

You can disable that P1500, but any big claim they will investigate further by swapping another OEM PCM in to see if you throw P1500 as different modules store the code permanently so you can't erase it. In-some cases even swapping an ECU for warranty purposes or insurance (Fire for example) can lead to the P1500 code which has to be noted so future warranty claims aren't denied.

If Vipers were continued to be made, they would have eventually added the P1500 code. If mopar isn't selling it directly, you risk your warranty. An aftermarket Differential brace voided the rear end section of a demons warranty, FCA doesn't fuck around.

Edit: I've seen it in person on a Gen V, That rep could have snapped his fingers and ended that powertrain and the owners extended mopar warranty.

[ViperGeorge]

Modifying your ECU and how the engine preforms is a powertrain void. A known internal defect of the engine is a separate story. If you come into a dealer with a modified ECU Challenger/Charger/Durango 2015+ you will throw a non-MIL Light code P1500. That code is to check for aftermarket ECU/Flash. If confirmed, the dealer notifies FCA and a restriction is placed on the powertrain warranty (Void). If you have any claim north of $1000 and it triggers a Chrysler Rep and they see P1500, powertrain is void. The Rep can decide if they want to tell or void it depending if they believe that was the cause of it but if you make the engine operate outside of factory spec, if it fails you can easily say because they made the engine preform higher then we originally sold it.

You can disable that P1500, but any big claim they will investigate further by swapping another OEM PCM in to see if you throw P1500 as different modules store the code permanently so you can't erase it. In-some cases even swapping an ECU for warranty purposes or insurance (Fire for example) can lead to the P1500 code which has to be noted so future warranty claims aren't denied.

If Vipers were continued to be made, they would have eventually added the P1500 code. If mopar isn't selling it directly, you risk your warranty. An aftermarket Differential brace voided the rear end section of a demons warranty, FCA doesn't fuck around.

Edit: I've seen it in person on a Gen V, That rep could have snapped his fingers and ended that powertrain and the owners extended mopar warranty.

Not to argue but the law requires that the vehicle manufacturer must demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the problem. SEMA has pushed this for many years. Many people when confronted with a denial will say "shit" and move on. However, I believe a committed customer with a good lawyer would make FCA relent. They did after all relent on the 3 previous engine failures with Arrow controllers because they ultimately could not demonstrate that the controller caused the issue especially since examination of the bearings in question showed debris contamination. Were it not for the Magnuson law you wouldn't be able to change your own oil or brakes or take somewhere other than the dealer without the manufacturer claiming it was because you did not take it to a dealer.

Bottom line is - sure FCA (or any manufacturer) will try to void your warranty and deny a claim but they would likely lose in court in my opinion if they could not show that the aftermarket part caused the problem.

[ViperJon]

Not to argue but the law requires that the vehicle manufacturer must demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the problem. SEMA has pushed this for many years. Many people when confronted with a denial will say "shit" and move on.

Unfortunately the way it works is they deny you, then YOU have to prove it DIDN'T cause the problem not the other way around.
Which means lawyer, money and a load of downtime. Probably why most just give up.

[MinGrey02Stg2]

Unfortunately the way it works is they deny you, then YOU have to prove it DIDN'T cause the problem not the other way around.
Which means lawyer, money and a load of downtime. Probably why most just give up.

It would be worth at least a demand letter from a lawyer, though, as FCA will also note the cost of retaining their own counsel to respond and fight the claim. It would probably be cheaper for them to just fix the problem.

[cubeman]

Not to argue but the law requires that the vehicle manufacturer must demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the problem. SEMA has pushed this for many years. Many people when confronted with a denial will say "shit" and move on. However, I believe a committed customer with a good lawyer would make FCA relent. They did after all relent on the 3 previous engine failures with Arrow controllers because they ultimately could not demonstrate that the controller caused the issue especially since examination of the bearings in question showed debris contamination. Were it not for the Magnuson law you wouldn't be able to change your own oil or brakes or take somewhere other than the dealer without the manufacturer claiming it was because you did not take it to a dealer.

Bottom line is - sure FCA (or any manufacturer) will try to void your warranty and deny a claim but they would likely lose in court in my opinion if they could not show that the aftermarket part caused the problem.

You'd lose in court when they say that you pushed the engine outside of their specifications. The warranty covers the car as-is from the showroom. The second you change timing, add fuel or anything your taking what they made and pushing it pass what they want too. It doesn't matter if that product might be capable of doing it, it's not what they cover. The Arrow ECU modifies timing and fuel. Why did FCA probably replace those motors? Because those viper owners involved had the cash to fight and it was cheaper to settle and replace the motor then fight it in court. If anything, that's bad on those consumers rather then FCA.

I'm pro modification of cars, I just don't get people who want OEM's to cover faults that are caused by aftermarket stuff or accelerated a problem. Let's say all the rockers in most Viper motors are good for OEM RPM's, some might last longer at higher RPM's then others. You throw in the Arrow PCM and it raises red line a little, great. You break a rocker even though everyone else is fine? Is it shit luck you got some less reliable rockers then other viper owners? Yes. Should FCA cover it? No because it's going to be impossible for you to prove that rocker would have broke even under the factory tune. I see both sides here and with that rear diff warranty specifically for the Demon. FCA conducted testing internally involving braces and found out that braces create leaks and additional stress on the casing. The owner began fighting the void and when that email was sent to him, it was over. You want to bet FCA hasn't done a bunch of documentation on the Arrow PCM?


It would be worth at least a demand letter from a lawyer, though, as FCA will also note the cost of retaining their own counsel to respond and fight the claim. It would probably be cheaper for them to just fix the problem.

Bingo, 20-25k claim for a new Gen V Motor is enough to have a consumer hire a lawyer, but too cheap for FCA to fight it in court.

[Matt Dillon]

I don't think that is entirely true. There were cases (3 I think) where FCA denied warranty claims on bad engines because of the Arrow controller. However, the blown engines resulted from the bearing issue and had nothing to do with the controller. I believe they eventually relented and did cover some or all of the cost that the owners originally had to lay out. Remember the Magnusen law says that they must demonstrate the aftermarket part caused the failure.

That may be true, but do you Think it's Worth the RISK when they MAY cover SOME of a Blown motor? NOT to me just for a Few more HP! JMO

[Vipes]

That may be true, but do you Think it's Worth the RISK when they MAY cover SOME of a Blown motor? NOT to me just for a Few more HP! JMO

Hells yeah it’s worth that risk, I just can’t get enough of the decel pop. I do plan on upgrading the bearings soon since almost all of our cars have show abnormal wear and our warranty will run out eventually.

[Sub Driver]

I dont think that is true. There have been shops that have said they have opened up many motors and found nothing wrong.

[ViperJon]

I dont think that is true. There have been shops that have said they have opened up many motors and found nothing wrong.

Certain tuners who have a vested interest in the bearing upgrade business have been pushing this as some sort of preventive maintenance. Of course doing so will also void your warranty.

[Vipes]

I dont think that is true. There have been shops that have said they have opened up many motors and found nothing wrong.

Which shop?


Certain tuners who have a vested interest in the bearing upgrade business have been pushing this as some sort of preventive maintenance. Of course doing so will also void your warranty.

I know the businesses want our money but if you do a quick search on the VOA FB page there are quite a few with no shop affiliation that even said they thought 'bearing-gate' was BS until they looked at their own bearings. We've probably had at least 300+ gen V engine failures, only the FCA knows the actually number. I know some were because of low oil but it's well documented there has been a quality control issue with our bearings. If my air conditioning breaks I don't think I will be denied warranty because I replaced oem bearings prone to abnormal wear and failure. As far as the engine being covered, why would I want warranty on a motor that will be replaced with the same quality and possibly fail again unless I plan on selling the car the day the warranty expires. I'll have better peace of mind with the 2 year warranty directly from the shop that replaces the bearings.

[Bruce H.]

We've probably had at least 300+ gen V engine failures, only the FCA knows the actually number. I know some were because of low oil but it's well documented there has been a quality control issue with our bearings.

There was a specific serial number range of engines from 2013 and early 2014 that were identified as being prone to failure. FCA had a supply of new engines lined up and ready to replace any that did fail. There has been very few failures reported outside of that range and the only two I know of failed with no oil in them. Many new owners had no idea that this particular engine with forged internals could consume an unusual amount of oil during break-in and learned that the hard way. FCA should have put a large warning sign on the dash to check oil frequently during break-in. There will be hundreds of Gen V's out there that have run low on oil but haven't failed. I suspect their bearings could show some signs of wear. I know a lot of G5 track rats and none have had a failure, but have seen failures due to very low oil levels.

Unless an owner received an R28 recall and the 10yr/100k warranty he should not be suspicious that he's driving a ticking time bomb, and if he did get the R28 he can drive worry-free like everyone else should be doing. If you do have the R28 the best thing to do is put a few thousand miles on it as faulty ones tended to let go within that range.

[cubeman]

Just to continue the HPTuners Vs Arrow discussion. I fired up the viper to move stuff around in the garage a couple of days ago. Prior cold weather here in NY anything under 50 degrees threw a Idle Air Controller code with the Arrow PCM. It was constantly hunting for RPM's during start-up idle and warmed up idle. HPTuners via Torrie? No problems at all. 1k RPM Idle for a little bit then rock solid at 950rpm in 20-30 degree weather. The point of Arrow PCM being more realistic for all ranges of use and temperatures doesn't add up to me.

You make nearly no additional power over what you can get out of really tuning the car. You void your warranty with either. The arrow PCM doesn't like cold weather and you can't make any adjustments at all on the Arrow PCM. I really don't see the benefit for something that basically costs near the same ($1000 Arrow vs $1250 HPTuners).

[Vipes]

There was a specific serial number range of engines from 2013 and early 2014 that were identified as being prone to failure. FCA had a supply of new engines lined up and ready to replace any that did fail. There has been very few failures reported outside of that range and the only two I know of failed with no oil in them. Many new owners had no idea that this particular engine with forged internals could consume an unusual amount of oil during break-in and learned that the hard way. FCA should have put a large warning sign on the dash to check oil frequently during break-in. There will be hundreds of Gen V's out there that have run low on oil but haven't failed. I suspect their bearings could show some signs of wear. I know a lot of G5 track rats and none have had a failure, but have seen failures due to very low oil levels.

Unless an owner received an R28 recall and the 10yr/100k warranty he should not be suspicious that he's driving a ticking time bomb, and if he did get the R28 he can drive worry-free like everyone else should be doing. If you do have the R28 the best thing to do is put a few thousand miles on it as faulty ones tended to let go within that range.

There is a survey posted on the VOA FB page, 199 participated of which 160 reported no issues yet while 39 had replacement engines installed. While the majority of these were limited to 2013 and 2014 (some failed after passing R28 or didn't have the recall) there were quite a few that were 2015-2017. Also a couple of the failures were the warranty installed replacement engine (double failure cars). I'm sure the low oil during break-in is responsible for quite a few of these plus abnormal wear seen during bearing inspections but I don't think we have enough data to confirm the failures and/or bearing wear outside of the specific vin range are exclusively from low oil.

[8400cc]

Hells yeah it’s worth that risk, I just can’t get enough of the decel pop. I do plan on upgrading the bearings soon since almost all of our cars have show abnormal wear and our warranty will run out eventually.

When you say upgrade the bearings, which rod bearings are you referring to ?