Post cap for "Enthusiasts"

[Vprbite]

I realize why we don't want to require a vin number to be a member. Many people use this as a resource when shopping for their first Viper and members are more than happy to help. But my question is, at a certain point, when do we ask them to help support the process here. Lest we forget, this is a club. Peope, have the right to have no association with it and never visit the site if they so choose. But how long should we as a club allow someone to use our facilities and our community that we have created and maintain without giving back?

It also seems to me that the people who tend to post the rudest things and often times seem to be less neighborly are the enthousiasts. And what reason do they have to be a little nicer? This isn't their "neighborhood", so to speak.

I also understand that there are people in other parts of the world where they are the only Viper for large distances. Or they may be between Vipers while they build a house or finish helping a child through college or something like that. I absolutely understand. Is there anything wrong with asking them to get an "Associate Membership" or something to that effect? Basically, since hey have no region to have their money given back to, perhaps they shouldn't pay he same as those of us with active regions. But at least something to show they have some skin in the game. Maybe and enthousiast membership goes for 25 per year, more if you want the magazine.

This is a private club, but we allow those who aren't members to come in and get all the perks of being a member like tech help, opinions on modifications, reviews, and a number of other things that paying members put effort and money into doing, but they don't contribute. And many of them act rude in the process. Some of them even calling those of us who do pay "suckers" or "stupid" for paying. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it, but why are they entitled to it right here in our community? I can't think of any other private club where I can walk around and badmouth members and get all the perks of joining without ever contributing any dues.

I feel like if you are searching for a viper and are asking for some current owners help on that (which owners and members tend to incredibly graciously), 50 free posts sounds like plenty. After that, perhaps it's time to pony up and be a part of the club. The enthousiasts who have 400 posts and own Vipers are simply gaming the system and using the platform that we as a group worked hard to put together and keep a good place to be. Why should those of us who pay effectively have to cover their dues to they can be freeloading members?

I don't think this is excluding anyone. I understand not everyone can can have a Viper at every moment. But 25 dollars per year to participate on the forums or paying for the magazine only membership is completely fair in my opinion.

Does anyone agree?

[Leslie]

I agree. Should be a cap on posts for enthusiasts. It adds to the value of membership and supporting the site.

[plumcrazy]

disagree completely

[Vprbite]

disagree completely

As is your right. Plum and I know each other and respect each other. I have no problem with you disagreeing.

My concern is not that people must own Vipers. Not at all. I just like knowing that someone has some skin in the game. That they are a member that has an interest in keeping that community a good place because they are a part of it. I often see people withe word "enthousiast" under their name being the most rude. They are enjoying the community that some amazing people built and great people keep a fantastic place to be, without contributing.

[plumcrazy]

love the idea of more member benefits but i just dont like the feel of an inclusive/elitest forum. IMO the cap would do that. I would think the VOA wants to grow the forum, not force it to shrink. id be worried it would shrink if you did that. Its ok to be offended sometime....

[Vprbite]

This is America where you aren't allowed to offend anyone anymore.

To me it's not about offending. It's that at 50 posts, I feel one is just taking advantage at that point.

[sparkrn]

What about a rule that you get only so many post per membership? More money in means more "skin" in the game. Like say if you post over 2577 times you pony up another $100 to prove your good intentions.

[ICPREY]

disagree completely

^^This. It's the internet, maybe give Plum's signature a try if it really bugs you.

[Granger73]

disagree completely

I agree 100% with Plum. Enthusiasts don't really have a lot lot of benefits other than access to the forums. But I think on average their contributions are positive.

[ViperJeff]

I agree completely.....limited posts

Sorry plum

Us enthusists really don't contribute at all. I 'gave Stretch a complete listing of the VOI9 VIN's for his registry and I did the same for Black Ader and his Vooodoo Registry. I think it would be terrible to have enthusists contribute.

I was even asked recently for aditional Gen V info, but as an enthusist, I'm afraid I won't help as there are other sources

Good Day

[v10CodeMonkey]

All that would do is push people from here to the VCA forums where there is no post limit that I know of and they still have people willing to help. Honestly, what is it costing you to have an enthusiast post 1 time or 10,000? Should we start charging more for members that go to VOA funded events too since they get more out of their membership? I personally got 4 magazines out of my past years dues and that is it. Yet I pay as much as everyone else that most likely took advantage of the perks membership had to offer. So I guess you can consider my leftover "skin" as a donation to allow those that didn't pay dues, access to the forums.

[Vprbite]

Obviously people can disagree. And it doesn't make me like or respect anyone less. We are of course allowed different opinions. I suppose I was unclear about something though. By saying that enthousiasts don't contribute, I meant that they don't contribute money wise to the infrastructure. Not that they have nothing to contribute content-wise. I was a bit unclear on that part and for that, I apologize.

As far as spark's suggestion bout paying more for more posts...I thought the idea of membership was access. As club members, we can spend as much time as we would like here. That's one of the things we are paying for that non-memners are not paying for.

If people don't agree, that's fine. This was just a suggestion on my part. I very much like this club and feel protective of it and want to try and keep it what I consider the by far the greatest car forum I have ever seen or been a part of and I believe that is due to the wonderful support and effort from members.

[Vprbite]

I agree 100% with Plum. Enthusiasts don't really have a lot lot of benefits other than access to the forums. But I think on average their contributions are positive.

Ya know what, a lot of enthousiasts do contribute good things. I just feel that the less emphasis we put on membership the less special it becomes and I wouldn't hate to see the club go down a road where it became just as bad as other internet forums

Again, this was just a suggestion on my part as a member. It's by no means some kind of decree. Even our president doesn't have that power. So feel free to voice your disagreement or agreement as you wish.

[Vprbite]

I agree completely.....limited posts

Sorry plum

Us enthusists really don't contribute at all. I 'gave Stretch a complete listing of the VOI9 VIN's for his registry and I did the same for Black Ader and his Vooodoo Registry. I think it would be terrible to have enthusists contribute.

I was even asked recently for aditional Gen V info, but as an enthusist, I'm afraid I won't help as there are other sources

Good Day


I'm sorry if you took my suggestion personally. It wasn't directed at you or even at any one enthousiast specifically. It was directed at the concept. I'm sorry of it seemed like I was somehow singling you out.

[Chorps]

Disagree. Forum posts are moderated already and people who are not good for the community get warned and banned pretty quick as it is.

[SlateEd]

Vprbite - I agree with the intent but not sure that post limits is the best way to get there.
Locally what I've observed is confusion about what 'membership' is really for... in other words, some people think that 'joining the forum' is the same thing as becoming a VOA member. For someone who lives hundreds of miles away from where most events happen that might feel true (although they're forgetting the magazine and the discounts). For others, they use the forum a few times a year to get some information but they don't absorb enough to even get the idea that there are driving events associated with membership.

I would love to see a little more information required from all new forum members that gets collected and delivered in an organized way to the regional presidents just like the member information. Enthusiasts can contribute tons of valuable stuff, but everyone who uses this space should be willing to acknowledge there is a member-supported organization that provides it. Getting a welcome email from a local president or membership director wouldn't be a burden to an enthusiast, and sending them would be a valuable way for us to say "thanks for signing up for the forum - now please consider joining the club! here's some information about the benefits....." use that message to differentiate which is which.

Gathering that information at sign-up (or retroactively gather it at sign-in) would be a huge help for conversion. Just <Name><Email address> <Year of Viper (or none)> and <Zip Code>

[SlateEd]

I agree completely.....limited posts

Sorry plum

Us enthusists really don't contribute at all. I 'gave Stretch a complete listing of the VOI9 VIN's for his registry and I did the same for Black Ader and his Vooodoo Registry. I think it would be terrible to have enthusists contribute.

I was even asked recently for aditional Gen V info, but as an enthusist, I'm afraid I won't help as there are other sources

Good Day

Hey Jeff - I'm curious to hear why you haven't joined the club. Not trying to stir s#$%, just curious! You obviously DO contribute a lot and feel like you're a valuable member of the community within this forum, so you're opinion would be worth hearing on why not join the VOA?

[LATAMUD]

Post limit would be a form of censorship. Ive been on sites trying to respond to questions that have gone unanswered and hit blocks because of some non-vested membership restrictions. Many pros/cons to having an open forum, but I think it's just easier that we regulate ourselves and report inappropriate posts. As mentioned earlier if you personally dislike anyone on this forum you can adjust setting in your profile to ignore certain users. I'm not 100% sure but I do notice some of my responses don't get any reposes from OP in some threads where OP responds to everyone else. I'm being actively or passively ignored. I do it, others do it to me. I try to stay useful but we all will disagree on some things sometimes.

This post limit for enthusiasts also reminds me, in part, of why the VOA exists. A story better left for the history books. I'm on the fence about renewing my membership. Probably will but I could possibly be an enthusiast next month. With a post limit, I'd post less. I'd save my posts for things I need or want rather than answer questions like how to use a turkey baster to bleed a clutch, or explain how to swap a gen4 swingarm/pan onto a gen3. I'll let someone else answer it. I don't post much as it is but I like to think when I do post I'm bringing value to the site. I'm just me but I like to think we have other like minded enthusiast here as well. Ignore the riffraff.

[ViperTony]

There's one constant that comes up over the decade when this topic has been discussed: There will always be internet trolls that are butt-hurt in some form or fashion that try to ruin it for forum members. Not all enthusiasts fall into the butt-hurt category. Most enthusiasts contribute positively to the forums. Membership doesn't eliminate the butt-hurts either. In fact, requiring the butt-hurts to pay a fee entitles them to be an official butt-hurt. The butt-hurt, or the stupid or stupid with an agenda, simply cannot be fixed. It's a waste of time and energy.

The butt-hurts come and go. Feed the trolls and they stick around, ignore them and they vanish. We have site posting policies in effect. Eventually, the stupid will post themselves out of the site by violating policy anyway. They fizzle out over time. It's important to note that this issue is not unique to the VOA. Every car club forum has it's share of butt-hurts. We are not unique in this regard.

What makes us unique is that Vipers are rare. Viper Enthusiasts, and owners in general, don't have access to an abundance of Viper sites to learn about, contribute or obtain help from other Viper owners be it for purchasing a Viper or simply keeping up with the evolution of the Viper. It seems that Viper sales these days, as well as marketing of the Viper, falls heavily on Viper owners and this club spreading word of mouth, events, forum discussions and the like. Personally, I may never have purchased my first Viper if it were not for the forums, specifically the help and guidance I received from Viper owners. I am not alone in this regard. I see potential new members or owners show up to events because they read about them, or were invited, through the forums. The openness of this site, both in how the forum is operated and how the VOA operates, is second to none.

Rather than figuring out how to restrict Enthusiasts on the site, we should be looking for ways to help enthusiasts get into a Viper and experience Viper ownership or membership. Ed has great ideas in this regard. Some Enthusiasts own Vipers and have no desire to join the club but want to be part of the VOA forum and this is perfectly OK.

Dealing with the butt-hurts is a game of attrition: ignore them, they will go away or self-implode. If they don't go away or self-implode then they at least provide comedic relief. It's a win win.

[ViperJeff]

Hey Jeff - I'm curious to hear why you haven't joined the club. Not trying to stir s#$%, just curious! You obviously DO contribute a lot and feel like you're a valuable member of the community within this forum, so you're opinion would be worth hearing on why not join the VOA?

Simple, I do not own a Viper. Which makes me the true definition of an enthusist. I have a greater passion for the Viper than probably a lot of owners, however, that passion is not an avenue to membership. I'm good with that. I just see posts like this an think how insecure one must be to be worried about any post an enthusist might make. We are not trolls

Good Day

[City]

It's an interesting discussion that IS being considered. However there is a strong consensus against diminishing non-VOA forum members access. Although the discussion internally is still ongoing, there does seem to be a consensus to increase VOA member only areas on the forum; more like the existing Tech Team area which only members can access.


Disagree. Forum posts are moderated already and people who are not good for the community get warned and banned pretty quick as it is.

And this ^

[SlateEd]

Simple, I do not own a Viper. Which makes me the true definition of an enthusist. I have a greater passion for the Viper than probably a lot of owners, however, that passion is not an avenue to membership. I'm good with that. I just see posts like this an think how insecure one must be to be worried about any post an enthusist might make. We are not trolls

Good Day

okay, thanks for the reply!
and FWIW I'm not 'worried' about posts enthusiasts make. (pretty sure you were referring to the OP/thread anyway, just in case) I asked you for input because I value the input.

[ViperJeff]

okay, thanks for the reply!
and FWIW I'm not 'worried' about posts enthusiasts make. (pretty sure you were referring to the OP/thread anyway, just in case) I asked you for input because I value the input.

I don't post much, more reading than anything else.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it appear as if you said something you didn't.

Also, sorry for the intrusion, sometimes I just have to respond publicly. Most of what I do is out of view and in support of all things Viper. Back to just reading

Make it a better day
Jeff

[SmoknTires]

I completely agree with Vprbites purpose, as every time I see a poor post by an enthusiast - I wonder if that outweighs the benefits they bring. The thought has crossed my mind many times.

I do think there is value to them having fairly open access, their opinions do matter (and of course many are still Viper owners). I also think the quantity of opinions we get is also helpful. On the downside, they are somewhat more unruly than members when we look at the "bulk" of cultural clashes with have with people who misbehave. People who are members of the club obviously care more about the impact their comments have on club members and future club members.

But in weighing the pros/cons, and the impacts of creating segregation, I think that it's still something I'm slightly inclined to be careful with. If we have member only areas, we begin to split content, as we'll pull content out of forums where posts would have been made. We also create some messiness and we'll of course have people cross posting so that they can have a conversation in and out of the member group. I also feel it'll push people away and in general we'll get less content, which is something we always wanted. There are many on the forums who join the club once they experience a part of what we are.

This is a case where either direction has ramifications, but I lean toward not splitting the group, but have asked our mod and officer group if there are other ideas for creating new content that only members benefit from. Viprbite, one correction, the tech team forum is actually only a member benefit and was a great idea -I've gotten lots of emails thanking us for implementing, it was a unique idea. If we can get more like that, I think it has little negative impact and tremendous positive impact on members. Adding a very specific benefit that narrows the scope and actually creates content would be a win/win.

I know the frustration at times. Sometimes when you see a negative nelly and review their last posts, you can often find they are a serial offender. Luckily the mods really do a great job at monitoring and filtering the really bad stuff (and they take the hit for it), but I do agree with you that categorically we do tend to be challenged by (some) enthusiasts who like to push limits and get rough when sitting behind a keyboard.

[Mopar'er no car]

Hey Jeff - I'm curious to hear why you haven't joined the club. Not trying to stir s#$%, just curious! You obviously DO contribute a lot and feel like you're a valuable member of the community within this forum, so you're opinion would be worth hearing on why not join the VOA?


Jeff calls the VOA the splinter group, he wont ever become a member..he is right on one thing...He gets involved in all the drama of the viper nation but yet dosent own one...To each his own I guess but I'd feel like a stalker..I am guilty of not signing up yet, I get on the forum every night but can't seem to remember to call the wife during the VOA office bussiness hours. (Submitted my membership online and it kept saying processing)I just hand over the cash, she pays the bills..


The dues are cheap, the way I look at it If i go to 1 event it's more than worth the mamba membership, not to mention the mag.. Now the people, you can't put a price on that. Maybe we could try to involve more non members at events...I know as a ram srt10 owner I was basically treated like a member, I was going to join just after hanging with the ohio folks at the Norwalk event. After sitting in Bruces 06 coupe I didn't have to worry about the associate part...

[Mopar'er no car]

it's hard enough trying to feed these 14 kids on $1,000 a week of food stamps. let alone all the bail money that I have to post for being in jail for all the back child support. I promise I will get the 15000 pennies in the mail by next month. shipping from 43567 please

[Granger73]

A better question might be, "What is stopping enthusiasts that own Vipers from joining up?" Gotta be a reason.

[Vprbite]

Jeff, I'm not "insecure over a post an enthousiast might make". That is not the point of my original suggestion. I am also aware that member or enthousiast alike are subject to the same rules in terms of things like hate speech or personal attacks. That's not my issue. I like the idea of increasing membership because everyone brings new and unique perspectives to the table. Here in Arizona we regularly invite people to events who aren't members so they can see what it is all about and meet some people and usually they end up joining. I think this is a fantastic club and honestly believe it is better than any other internet forum. I also believe that is due to the vested interest people have in keeping it a great place to be.

To me, allowing non members 50 posts or so is so that they can see what we are about here and what the club is like. Otherwise, paying members are subsidizing non-members. It seems most people don't mind doing that and also seems like a number of people don't agree with me on this. That's fine. I was merely sharing my suggestion in the portion of the forum specifically for suggestions.

I suppose if you boiled my original post down to its main point it would be this...if people have post counts in the hundreds and have had a forum handle since the beginning, what is their aversion to supporting the site and club? It clearly can't be that they don't like it, because then they just wouldn't log on. So why such a strong aversion to supporting the site and making it clear that one is a member? And if it is a geographical issue of no other Vipers around, that problem is easily solved with a reduced cost membership because there is no local to receive that portion of the membership fee. Why would one post hundreds of times yet not want to be a member?

[ViperJeff]

Jeff, I'm not "insecure over a post an enthousiast might make". That is not the point of my original suggestion. I am also aware that member or enthousiast alike are subject to the same rules in terms of things like hate speech or personal attacks. That's not my issue. I like the idea of increasing membership because everyone brings new and unique perspectives to the table. Here in Arizona we regularly invite people to events who aren't members so they can see what it is all about and meet some people and usually they end up joining. I think this is a fantastic club and honestly believe it is better than any other internet forum. I also believe that is due to the vested interest people have in keeping it a great place to be.

To me, allowing non members 50 posts or so is so that they can see what we are about here and what the club is like. Otherwise, paying members are subsidizing non-members. It seems most people don't mind doing that and also seems like a number of people don't agree with me on this. That's fine. I was merely sharing my suggestion in the portion of the forum specifically for suggestions.

I suppose if you boiled my original post down to its main point it would be this...if people have post counts in the hundreds and have had a forum handle since the beginning, what is their aversion to supporting the site and club? It clearly can't be that they don't like it, because then they just wouldn't log on. So why such a strong aversion to supporting the site and making it clear that one is a member? And if it is a geographical issue of no other Vipers around, that problem is easily solved with a reduced cost membership because there is no local to receive that portion of the membership fee. Why would one post hundreds of times yet not want to be a member?

In the beginning the majority of my posts were based on a current forum suggestion, I have since had those posts removed as post count really means nothing to me. Other posts were production related and I "thought" it might be helpful. In some cases yes and others, well, not so much. Some have been on interesting discussions like this one. I agree, posting rules should be equal across the board from the President to the Troll, all held to the same standard. In the beginning I had every intention of becoming an associate member, that process and opportunity dried up much in the same way as this discussion. the negatives out weighed the positives and the non Viper owning forum members were just that and labeled as such. Again, I have no problem with that. I really haven't followed the membership opportunities since as the no was received loud and clear.

This is an interesting endeavor and enjoy the liberal slant.

I do have one question now that I've over 50 posts. When this is enacted:

Can an enthusiast still log in?
If yes, can an enthusiast still PM?

Have a Great Day
Jeff

[Vprbite]

This isn't a policy and I doubt it will be. I simply suggested it. It seems some people agree, some are lukewarm, many don't agree. All of that is fine as that is the purpose of this forum and thread.

And theoretically, if this did exist, I would assume that at 50 posts or however many were decided upon, one either joins at that point to continue having all the privleges of being a member or would be "read only". But I highly doubt it will happen, so no need to worry about it.

[ViperJeff]

This isn't a policy and I doubt it will be. I simply suggested it. It seems some people agree, some are lukewarm, many don't agree. All of that is fine as that is the purpose of this forum and thread.

And theoretically, if this did exist, I would assume that at 50 posts or however many were decided upon, one either joins at that point to continue having all the privleges of being a member or would be "read only". But I highly doubt it will happen, so no need to worry about it.

I understand, I was just considering what would be on the other side of the = sign and had considered that you would have also, so I was just looking for your thoughts on the matter.

The more I think about it I like your idea, it should be implemented

[Vprbite]

Thank you, Jeff. I very much appreciate that.

I do understand why people think it seems "elitist" or that it has an aire or "exclusion." My thought would not mean that those who get associate members are any less of a member. Actually, they would be more of a member than they are as enthousiasts. I guess my idea was for more of an "A La Carte" membership, if you will. So that those who are 200 miles from the nearest Viper and don't do group activities don't have to pay the same rate as those of us who do, because they have no local club to receive the funds that get returned, but they would still be members of the club.

Of course, this was purely a suggestion and I highly doubt it will be adopted after seeing people's responses. I would only ask they consider my suggestion thoughtfully and respectfully. I was not trying to single anyone out. It was just a suggestion that I thought would help the club. But obviously, most of the club would have to want it for it to be implemented but it doesn't seem like that will happen given the response to my original post. Which is fine. As I said, I really do like this club and any suggestion I make is only with its best interests in mind.

[ViperJeff]

Thank you, Jeff. I very much appreciate that.

I do understand why people think it seems "elitist" or that it has an aire or "exclusion." My thought would not mean that those who get associate members are any less of a member. Actually, they would be more of a member than they are as enthousiasts. I guess my idea was for more of an "A La Carte" membership, if you will. So that those who are 200 miles from the nearest Viper and don't do group activities don't have to pay the same rate as those of us who do, because they have no local club to receive the funds that get returned, but they would still be members of the club.

Of course, this was purely a suggestion and I highly doubt it will be adopted after seeing people's responses. I would only ask they consider my suggestion thoughtfully and respectfully. I was not trying to single anyone out. It was just a suggestion that I thought would help the club. But obviously, most of the club would have to want it for it to be implemented but it doesn't seem like that will happen given the response to my original post. Which is fine. As I said, I really do like this club and any suggestion I make is only with its best interests in mind.

All the Best...

Merry Christmas

[Vprbite]

I was thinking about it, and I imagined this scenario. Pretend it's as if there was a gym and we all have gym memberships that allow us to use all the machines, the free weights, sauna, the racquetball courts, the pool, and go whenever we want and it costs us 50 dollars per month. And someone comes along who says "I really like the gym and would like to work out here and do cardio but I never play racquetball, I never plan on playing racquetball and I don't even own a racquet". So the gym says "no problem. We have a membership that allows you to use all the facilities except the racquetball courts and that's only 20 dollars per month." The gym wouldn't say, "well we have a lot of paying members who pay to pay the staff, keep the lights on, fix the equipment and such so you can come by whenever you would like have all the perks of membership without contributing to the upkeep." They would give you a free 2 week or month membership because they are proud of their gym and want you to see it, meet the other members at which point you would probably want to join because aside from the very nice facilities, they believe they have a great group of members. They wouldn't allow you to come by indefinitely without ever contributing towards the infrastructure that you are enjoying. Obviously, I know the analogy isn't perfect because one is a business and this is a club. But how would you feel if every day you saw dozens of people working out and using the machines who don't pay and think you are a sucker for paying a membership? Also, wouldn't you be more likely to not abuse the weights or machines because you are paying for their use where as the person who is not paying could just say "screw it I don't care. If this gym gets crappy I will wait till people start another nice gym and use that one for free."

It's just an analogy to help illustrate my point that it seems odd people would post for years and not join when there is an easy answer to any concern they may have for not joining.

Don't worry, I don't plan to beat this issue any more. I feel I made my point in a clear and thoughtful and in no way disrespectful manner in a couple of different ways. Absolutely feel free to disagree for your own reasons, whatever those may be. It's a forum and forums are for discussions and not just for telling everyone that everything they say or do is great. So disagreeing with me will not make me like or respect you any less. I made a suggestion I thought was a good idea. That is all. I was not trying to exclude anyone, but actually encourage more people to officially be members of this club that I believe is a great place and worth putting in effort to keep it that way.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas

[plumcrazy]

vprbite = trouble maker :)

[Fatboy 18]

Personally I think it's good that people can come on here :)

I know the Gen V section is busy at the moment but other sections of the website are fairly quiet (probably due to cars being tucked up in storage). Some Bloke called Vprbite seems to post quite a lot :lol2:

Nothing wrong with encouraging more people to join up but I don't think it would be good to cap their posts if they choose not to join :)

Now seeing is its December, Im going to get it in Early and wish all you lot a HAPPY CHRISTMAS.....HO HO HO

[Vprbite]

vprbite = trouble maker :)

You're starting to sound a lot like my parole officer. I didn't mich care for him either. Thanks for helping with the intelligent discussion side of things plum. I'm a little worried you spent too much time composing your post,given its length and beautiful prose. I wouldn't want to cut into your usually Saturday plans of shaking your fist at school age children and yelling "shouldn't you be in school?" While also enjoying a worther's original candy.

[Fatboy 18]

While also enjoying a worther's original candy. God they sell those horrid things in your Country too! Yuck! :(

[ViperJeff]

I was thinking about it, and I imagined this scenario. Pretend it's as if there was a gym and we all have gym memberships that allow us to use all the machines, the free weights, sauna, the racquetball courts, the pool, and go whenever we want and it costs us 50 dollars per month. And someone comes along who says "I really like the gym and would like to work out here and do cardio but I never play racquetball, I never plan on playing racquetball and I don't even own a racquet". So the gym says "no problem. We have a membership that allows you to use all the facilities except the racquetball courts and that's only 20 dollars per month." The gym wouldn't say, "well we have a lot of paying members who pay to pay the staff, keep the lights on, fix the equipment and such so you can come by whenever you would like have all the perks of membership without contributing to the upkeep." They would give you a free 2 week or month membership because they are proud of their gym and want you to see it, meet the other members at which point you would probably want to join because aside from the very nice facilities, they believe they have a great group of members. They wouldn't allow you to come by indefinitely without ever contributing towards the infrastructure that you are enjoying. Obviously, I know the analogy isn't perfect because one is a business and this is a club. But how would you feel if every day you saw dozens of people working out and using the machines who don't pay and think you are a sucker for paying a membership? Also, wouldn't you be more likely to not abuse the weights or machines because you are paying for their use where as the person who is not paying could just say "screw it I don't care. If this gym gets crappy I will wait till people start another nice gym and use that one for free."

It's just an analogy to help illustrate my point that it seems odd people would post for years and not join when there is an easy answer to any concern they may have for not joining.

Don't worry, I don't plan to beat this issue any more. I feel I made my point in a clear and thoughtful and in no way disrespectful manner in a couple of different ways. Absolutely feel free to disagree for your own reasons, whatever those may be. It's a forum and forums are for discussions and not just for telling everyone that everything they say or do is great. So disagreeing with me will not make me like or respect you any less. I made a suggestion I thought was a good idea. That is all. I was not trying to exclude anyone, but actually encourage more people to officially be members of this club that I believe is a great place and worth putting in effort to keep it that way.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas

I think if you replace gym with online dating site it would make more sense.

[AZTVR]

I think if you replace gym with online dating site it would make more sense.

This site sucks big time as an online dating site substitute.

[ViperJeff]

This site sucks big time as an online dating site substitute.


I stand corrected, a gym it is, when do we start

[SlateEd]

I was thinking about it, and I imagined this scenario. Pretend it's as if there was a gym and we all have gym memberships that allow us to use all the machines, the free weights, sauna, the racquetball courts, the pool, and go whenever we want and it costs us 50 dollars per month. And someone comes along who says "I really like the gym and would like to work out here and do cardio but I never play racquetball, I never plan on playing racquetball and I don't even own a racquet". So the gym says "no problem. We have a membership that allows you to use all the facilities except the racquetball courts and that's only 20 dollars per month." The gym wouldn't say, "well we have a lot of paying members who pay to pay the staff, keep the lights on, fix the equipment and such so you can come by whenever you would like have all the perks of membership without contributing to the upkeep." They would give you a free 2 week or month membership because they are proud of their gym and want you to see it, meet the other members at which point you would probably want to join because aside from the very nice facilities, they believe they have a great group of members. They wouldn't allow you to come by indefinitely without ever contributing towards the infrastructure that you are enjoying. Obviously, I know the analogy isn't perfect because one is a business and this is a club. But how would you feel if every day you saw dozens of people working out and using the machines who don't pay and think you are a sucker for paying a membership? Also, wouldn't you be more likely to not abuse the weights or machines because you are paying for their use where as the person who is not paying could just say "screw it I don't care. If this gym gets crappy I will wait till people start another nice gym and use that one for free."

It's just an analogy to help illustrate my point that it seems odd people would post for years and not join when there is an easy answer to any concern they may have for not joining.

Don't worry, I don't plan to beat this issue any more. I feel I made my point in a clear and thoughtful and in no way disrespectful manner in a couple of different ways. Absolutely feel free to disagree for your own reasons, whatever those may be. It's a forum and forums are for discussions and not just for telling everyone that everything they say or do is great. So disagreeing with me will not make me like or respect you any less. I made a suggestion I thought was a good idea. That is all. I was not trying to exclude anyone, but actually encourage more people to officially be members of this club that I believe is a great place and worth putting in effort to keep it that way.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas

I'm glad you restated with the workout parable because now I completely get your first suggestion... except I come back to my version of Viper reality, which I think many share.

The forum isn't the "gym" The forum is the Lobby at the gym. We're not giving people the free membership, we're telling them to hang out in the lobby as much as they want and contribute what they can about working out. Maybe they are retired from working out but they have vast knowledge of proper lifting technique.. could they contribute more actively if they came inside? sure! But I don't want to tell them to leave if they're contributing well in the lobby. Maybe occasionally a gym member will bring the gym enthusiast inside to use his 'guest pass' for a day and that in-person experience may convince him to sign up... but on a regular basis that person doesn't get the use of the gym.

And the moderators do a good job throwing out the people who stand around the lobby all day making inappropriate comments, or seem to be there for no reason but to harass Plum about his workout pants :-)

At the end of the day, I think that's the club's challenge is to remind people that the lobby alone is not the gym. We want as many as possible to get inside and sign up. Come back to what Granger said... are the machines not shinny enough? Staff not attractive enough (guilty here)?

[plumcrazy]

in the words of MC Hammer, " You Cant Touch This "

[Vprbite]

Can anyone tell me why they would post for years and not join and have no intention of doing so, aside from the people who are geographically isolated?

This is a legitimate question. I am asking in an attempt to understand. Perhaps I legitimately don't understand.

[AZTVR]

Can anyone tell me why they would post for years and not join and have no intention of doing so, aside from the people who are geographically isolated?

This is a legitimate question. I am asking in an attempt to understand. Perhaps I legitimately don't understand.

I would guess that the main reason is that the only benefit to them is the forum which is free. I know that I often do not pay for free things. I am selfish that way.

[Vprbite]

I would guess that the main reason is that the only benefit to them is the forum which is free. I know that I often do not pay for free things. I am selfish that way.

It's free the way healthcare in the UK is free. It's free for those who don't pay to maintain it. If all of us decided we just wanted the free forums, it goes away.

[slitherv10]

I realize why we don't want to require a vin number to be a member. Many people use this as a resource when shopping for their first Viper and members are more than happy to help. But my question is, at a certain point, when do we ask them to help support the process here. Lest we forget, this is a club. Peope, have the right to have no association with it and never visit the site if they so choose. But how long should we as a club allow someone to use our facilities and our community that we have created and maintain without giving back?

It also seems to me that the people who tend to post the rudest things and often times seem to be less neighborly are the enthousiasts. And what reason do they have to be a little nicer? This isn't their "neighborhood", so to speak.

I also understand that there are people in other parts of the world where they are the only Viper for large distances. Or they may be between Vipers while they build a house or finish helping a child through college or something like that. I absolutely understand. Is there anything wrong with asking them to get an "Associate Membership" or something to that effect? Basically, since hey have no region to have their money given back to, perhaps they shouldn't pay he same as those of us with active regions. But at least something to show they have some skin in the game. Maybe and enthousiast membership goes for 25 per year, more if you want the magazine.

This is a private club, but we allow those who aren't members to come in and get all the perks of being a member like tech help, opinions on modifications, reviews, and a number of other things that paying members put effort and money into doing, but they don't contribute. And many of them act rude in the process. Some of them even calling those of us who do pay "suckers" or "stupid" for paying. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it, but why are they entitled to it right here in our community? I can't think of any other private club where I can walk around and badmouth members and get all the perks of joining without ever contributing any dues.

I feel like if you are searching for a viper and are asking for some current owners help on that (which owners and members tend to incredibly graciously), 50 free posts sounds like plenty. After that, perhaps it's time to pony up and be a part of the club. The enthousiasts who have 400 posts and own Vipers are simply gaming the system and using the platform that we as a group worked hard to put together and keep a good place to be. Why should those of us who pay effectively have to cover their dues to they can be freeloading members?

I don't think this is excluding anyone. I understand not everyone can can have a Viper at every moment. But 25 dollars per year to participate on the forums or paying for the magazine only membership is completely fair in my opinion.

Does anyone agree?

Members bash members as well. That is the nature of the beast here and on other Viper sites. Its been that way from day one. There are always a few wannabes that get together on here and feel that they are more important than others because of the number of posts they have, the number of years they have been on the sites and or the number of friends or model of Viper they have.

I know I have been a victim of a few of those for posting my opinions and thus got ...quote..> take your piece of crap 1996 Viper and find yourself a real car like a Gen 5. That's because they owned a Gen 5 and he felt that if you owned any other model your not worthy enough to post an opinion. That's the same person who went out and bought a GEN 1 viper and called it special. The same person who quoted that unless you have contributed with fixes, installs or anything mechanically inclined on here to help others in that respect, you are not worthy. Posting mere opinions and chats is not enough to gain recognition on here. This is not a club where you can post and chat, its a club that is based on your quality of chat not your quantity. That's coming from a member.
I do commend a few on here though that can buy people like that ten times over and have been more than gentleman like on this site. Hats off for those guys/gals. But for the few on here that think their shit don't stink, think about what your presenting here. Your in a car club, your not representing the president of the USA. Your a guy with a car. That's it, no more no less.

Keep it just the way it is. Open to the public and let everyone be as they may. If you don't like it, leave. There are many other clubs you can post and chat with.

[Vprbite]

Slither. I don't know who that was that spoke to you like that but im sorry you had to deal with that. That's not appropriate, most importantly. It's also not at all what my original concept was meant to be. My original point was just that asking whether people agree that we should limit free posts. It's clear that many don't agree. It was not in the spirit of saying that members with newer or more cars are better or more important than anyone else and again, I apologize that someone spoke to you in such a condescending manner. I do believe that people like that are rare here as I find most are kind and helpful and not nearly so rude as to insult someone like that.

As you saw, my priginal post was written as a suggestion and followed with he phrase, "does anyone agree?" It seems many don't and I am just fine with that. I asked if people agree so I was prepared for people not to. So it appears we as a club will continue to allow unlimited free posting. That's ok. As I have said many times I believe this is the best car club/forum around and my suggestion was intended to help keep it that way as a way of increasing pride of membership so that everyone, even those that didn't own Vipers for whatever reason were still members and were to be respected and treated the same as a member who owns 4 vipers or however many. That was the intent of my suggestion. I tried to give different analogies to help make my point for why I thought it was a good idea, but the intention was the same. Me thinking that it is a good idea doesn't necessarily make it so or definitely doesn't mean that everyone else thinks it's a good idea. That's ok. That's why it is a forum and why we have a suggestion area.

So I still believe it's a good idea with good intent? Absolutely. But obviously no one else has to.

My question still stands though as I really am curious, why would some have hundreds of posts and be on the forums for years and not want to be a member? Is there something about being a member that they find disagreeable and if so, is that some policy or something that should be changed? Perhaps one of those enthousiasts can answer that question for me and make a suggestion as to what would make membership more agreeable to them. I am interested to hear that.

[plumcrazy]

some people to like to "belong" to a club but love the forum. some dont have vipers currently as well. Both fit me well actually.

also there was a lot of crappy stuff in the past that might have turned some people off to the whole club thing.

[Nine Ball]

Good discussion so far. We had other things we did on previous forums I owned, to distinguish member groups. One thing I've noticed here, is that paying members aren't given any perks above visitors. Here are some simple suggestions, that could be implemented in 10 minutes. You need to make it enticing to become a member, and those paying should receive a little more than non-members.

1. Limit private message count on visitors. Make it tiny, like 5 max stored. That annoyance alone, would make people pay up.
2. No signatures for visitors.
3. No images under usernames for visitors.
4. Paid members get a different color username. Mamba an even different color. Maybe a pink username for visitors. Something they would upgrade out of.

All in fun. But seriously, this is easy stuff to do. :)

[ViperJeff]

Works for me

[AZTVR]

It's free the way healthcare in the UK is free. It's free for those who don't pay to maintain it. If all of us decided we just wanted the free forums, it goes away. Perhaps it would help if the club put up a little red can in the corner of the browser window, and had a little bell ringing all the time until the non-club member put some money in the red can. What is the actual cost of the forum to the VOA per viewer? That could be where the trigger limit for the bell. Are we talking a dollar a year? 2? I would do that.

[ViperJeff]

This wouldn't work for me, I always have my sound muted til I want to hear something



Perhaps it would help if the club put up a little red can in the corner of the browser window, and had a little bell ringing all the time until the non-club member put some money in the red can. What is the actual cost of the forum to the VOA per viewer? That could be where the trigger limit for the bell. Are we talking a dollar a year? 2? I would do that.

[slitherv10]

Come the year 2018 there may not be too many new memberships. Many enthusiasts are knowledgeable and have a lot of input towards much of the car. They have been around longer than most members here. Now that being said, you wonder why they stopped membership. Especially when they own a car still, that my freinds remains a mystery into the unknown. The answer will die with the Incas, Romans and Dinasours.

[Vprbite]

Romans still exist. Haven't you seen "jersey shore"?