Ballin' on a Budget

[darbgnik]

*Disclaimer*

I am not in the market for any aftermarket power adders, whether that be exhausts, headers, heads/cams, nitrous systems, turbo systems, or superchargers.


To many owners delight, there seems to be a plethora of performance upgrades for all of the owners who need more power, these days. I find it exciting to read about all the options and excitement, even as a lurker. It also seems apparent, that many potential buyers are visibly upset over the cost of said power adders for this platform, souring threads by the suppliers, and pitting ones price against others.

Seems there needs to be one thread where everyone can bitch and whine till their hearts content, so I made one, lol.

Feel free to flame away at my attempt at a fun thread if you're seriously upset, or by all means, do it cheaper yourself, and prove them all wrong. This should be fun!

Flame suit on!

[rlhay2]

If you think a professional is expensive, wait until you see what an amateur will cost you!

[FLATOUT]

I actually really appreciate the thread OP.

[ViperSmith]

Sort of my field, but more so my wife's

http://40.media.tumblr.com/195e6201d376dfeee580c1f908834b5d/tumblr_nx0160q0Z81qet9hvo1_1280.png

Everyone wants something for nothing. Everyone thinks it can all be done so cheap, yet they aren't investing their time to do it themselves.

[darbgnik]

If you think a professional is expensive, wait until you see what an amateur will cost you!

Haha, I see this constantly in my line of work. The oil companies in my neck of the woods send pieces of their projects to "cheaper" fabricators, along with pages of their expectations(standards) to be built as mods. Like a laughable cycle, these "cheaper" mods show up, and they request that I send my guys out to compile lists of fixes to be performed on the clients dime, to bring them up to their standards.

I always have to resist the temptation to point out that "you get what you pay for", as I'm invoicing them for my "expensive" guys to fix it.

Cheap/Fast/Good, pick any two combinations, and can be related to many industries.....

[Evan@D3PE]

“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin

With that being said it doesn't justify crazy mark-up either necessarily lol

[SinasViperTA]

C'est la vie

[TrackAire]

Haha, I see this constantly in my line of work. The oil companies in my neck of the woods send pieces of their projects to "cheaper" fabricators, along with pages of their expectations(standards) to be built as mods. Like a laughable cycle, these "cheaper" mods show up, and they request that I send my guys out to compile lists of fixes to be performed on the clients dime, to bring them up to their standards.

I always have to resist the temptation to point out that "you get what you pay for", as I'm invoicing them for my "expensive" guys to fix it.

Cheap/Fast/Good, pick any two combinations, and can be related to many industries.....

When I started my company, I made sure that all of our letterhead and business cards had this motto somewhere on them:

"We offer the best price, service and quality....you get to pick two"

[Vprbite]

I don't see why a supercharger has to cost that much. I could probably do it for 20 dollars worth of tubing from the Air conditioning supply place. Of course, for my trouble I will tack on 15 bucks. So you can have a full supercharger kit for 35 dollars from vprbite mods inc. if you don't like the kit I send you, simply send it back for a full refund, minus a 10 dollar restocking fee.

I look forward to processing your orders.

[City]

If you think a professional is expensive, wait until you see what an amateur will cost you!


“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin


Holy crap! This may well be some of the most articulate language we've ever experienced. Those are seriously brilliant.

At least since 2001, when I jumped in, Viper "power adders" were ALWAYS noticeably and annoyingly more expensive than our "mass produced" competitors. This is nothing new and quite common with the introduction of most every new generation.

Great thread darbgnik! :dude3:

[Antonio@CalvoMotorsports]

If you think a professional is expensive, wait until you see what an amateur will cost you!

Thank you!

[Bleed viper]

I actually just always thought it was a dodge thing, everything I've ever wanted to mod on my truck always cost more than the Chevy or ford version. I figured if the viper was x times more than the truck than the parts would follow suite.

[7TH_SIGN]

You get what you pay for.

There's always eBay for the people who buy a $100,000 car but want to boost it for $5,000.

[CarolinaViper]

I actually just always thought it was a dodge thing, everything I've ever wanted to mod on my truck always cost more than the Chevy or ford version. I figured if the viper was x times more than the truck than the parts would follow suite.

I had my 71 Plymouth GTX since 1992.....totally agree with you.

[darbgnik]

I had my 71 Plymouth GTX since 1992.....totally agree with you.

Haha, parts for my 70 Charger are no joke either, if you can find them........ Economies of scale work against me there too, but I wouldn't have it any other way!

[gcrain]

Economies of scale

^The bottom line^

It's the price you pay for having a car that you don't see all over the place.

Rarity isn't why I decided to go with a Viper but it is a nice bonus.

[dethred]

All good points. Now, someone go ask those who were charged 10's of thousands getting their car turbo'ed by RSI. We all know what they ended up with. D3 performance is literally the only member in this thread that has mentioned a reasonable price being possible.

The primary logical fallacy here is that price=quality. Sorry, but they only intersect some of the time. In the case of RSI, people probably thought that the price was indicative of quality. How'd that turn out?

A bog standard GTR costs *more* than an SRT Viper now. If I can buy a kit capable of 1600hp from the most prestigious tuner of GTRs, for under $20,000, why is an unproven Viper kit starting at more than double that? Economies of scale??? Nissan sell maybe twice as many GTRs every year. Hardly a booming market. I would bet that Alpha will sell to a higher percentage of GTR owners, than any tuner with a Viper-specific kit that costs over 2x more than the Alpha kit. Or are the extra 4 cylinders too complicated?

If you price your product at half the cost of the entire car to which it will be installed, how do you think sales will be? "Not that many people will buy it, so we have to make a huge margin to be worthwhile"... Cart before the horse?

Under $40k (without labor) fitted to a car that costs about 50% more than a Viper GTS out of the box. Audi tends to sell about 1000 R8's in North America each year. This is obviously significantly more expensive to produce:
http://alphaperformance.com/packages/r8-coupe-alpha-10-performance-package/

We don't drive $400k cars to which tuners can charge an insane amount because "you know you have the money".

[Vprbite]

Wouldn't the GTR market be helped by the fact that more people do that to their cars than Viper owners. So the market is bigger than sales numbers alone would suggest? Also, isn't that car already turbo'd? So it was an easier kit to engineer? Where as the Gen V didn't come with any factory help in terms of forced induction?

I could be wrong. These are just my thoughts on the subject. Full disclosure, I am someone who thinks forced indiction is cool but not my style, or at least I am not in the market for one.

[Viperawi]

Great subject, and lot's to say.

In the viper's market I believe it's the value you need to consider rather than the cost. IF the vendor is doing that extra mile to make sure each part will deliver with zero issues, then it is a higher valuable part than any same part from any other vendor.
But on the same hand, there are some guys who have barely paid and bought a new viper that they can not simply afford the aftermarket demands. I need that valuable part (a lot of them actually haha) but cannot afford the cost, so I enjoy watching and lurking of people who actually buy them haha.

[Sub Driver]

Wouldn't the GTR market be helped by the fact that more people do that to their cars than Viper owners. So the market is bigger than sales numbers alone would suggest? Also, isn't that car already turbo'd? So it was an easier kit to engineer? Where as the Gen V didn't come with any factory help in terms of forced induction?

I could be wrong. These are just my thoughts on the subject. Full disclosure, I am someone who thinks forced indiction is cool but not my style, or at least I am not in the market for one.
I came from a GTR and while many people do simple bolt-ons, I do not think quite as many swap turbos. Once you upgrade turbos, in order to get their full potential you have to build the engine as well as upgrade the transmission which is $$$$.

[Tiago]

yea I think people see the price of the GTR turbo kit and try to compare apples to apples with the advertized viper builds, which is not, its just the turbo kit, bare, no motor, no fuel, no tuning, no install.

if you add truthfully apples to apples between the two I bet you will come out close to the same.

[rlhay2]

My $.02 : the market will support whatever price it will bear. If they are overpriced, they won't sell.

If the current options are too expensive, there is always RSI...just kiddin'...if you value your car don't take it to RSI!
They are a classic example of what can happen with discounted turbo kits. 2-4 year build times and that is only IF the car is completed.

If anything, RSI has shown that $30,000 Viper turbo kits are not profitable for a business.

[Vprbite]

My $.02 : the market will support whatever price it will bear. If they are overpriced, they won't sell.

If the current options are too expensive, there is always RSI...just kiddin'...if you value your car don't take it to RSI!
They are a classic example of what can happen with discounted turbo kits. 2-4 year build times and that is only IF the car is completed.

If anything, RSI has shown that $30,000 Viper turbo kits are not profitable for a business.

30 Gs for a car that arrives in pieces is certainly not profitable for business.

But I really think its true when you compare the whole build, a GTR is comparable. And it's always easier to upgrade a turbo than create one from scratch in an engine that doesn't have the comouter to monitor it. I really think a lot of what you are paying for is the intellectual property of the computer work.

[dethred]

I came from a GTR and while many people do simple bolt-ons, I do not think quite as many swap turbos. Once you upgrade turbos, in order to get their full potential you have to build the engine as well as upgrade the transmission which is $$$$.

Which is, I believe, part of the major cost of builds running around 1,000hp. The Viper is claimed to be able to handle 1,000hp on the stock internals. Pulling a motor, building it with new internals, and reassembling it... with the upgraded turbo kit, and all of that for around 60k? Way more involved for the price.

But we'll see who is actually able to make reasonable sales with their prices. My guess is D3 sells quite a few more.

[donk_316]

I don't think using the boyracer GTR as a comparison is fair.

If you compare pricing of aftermarket for the 04-08 Gallardo (NA V10) then you see direct correlation to Viper and Viper prices. Exhaust and so on also.

A full twin turbo build is 60k, with a built engine the package goes 100k.

For the record 50-60k for any twin turbo set up, I don't care who makes it, is obvious gouging. Like, painfully obvious.

D3 has hit the nail on the head with their pricing and package. Conversely, I still think I would go with the VE/Arrow heads and cam before anything else.

Just my opinion!

[Nike21763]

I come from 2 modified GTR's and currently have a stock GTR. My last GTR was an Alpha 12 making around 1,300whp and ran 8.4@170 in the 1/4. Definitely not comparing apples to apples with just a turbo kit. GTR can only handle about 600 wtq before you're at risk for bent rods. Transmission is also a major weakpoint when you start modifying. My build had a lot of extras, but when you bring it down to engine, turbos, and transmission the cost starts to skyrocket. 15-20k for the motor. 15k for the turbo kit. 25k for a an all out stage 5 to handle the power. And you will need more than that, those are just the basics. Tires, tunes, installation, possible axles, new intake, etc... You would be around 100k to have a complete build doing it right without having to detune it due to an upgrade that is not up to par. GTR's are not cheap to modify - if done correctly.

[dethred]

I don't think using the boyracer GTR as a comparison is fair.

If you compare pricing of aftermarket for the 04-08 Gallardo (NA V10) then you see direct correlation to Viper and Viper prices. Exhaust and so on also.

A full twin turbo build is 60k, with a built engine the package goes 100k.

For the record 50-60k for any twin turbo set up, I don't care who makes it, is obvious gouging. Like, painfully obvious.

D3 has hit the nail on the head with their pricing and package. Conversely, I still think I would go with the VE/Arrow heads and cam before anything else.

Just my opinion!

Really? It's just as expensive, and in generally the same performance category. Why a Gallardo V10? Because they both have 4 more cylinders than the GTR? The Gallardo was 60-70% more expensive when new. The R8, whose alpha turbo kit I posted above, is still way more expensive... yet it's significantly more complex turbo kit is cheaper before labor.

Or are you trying to say that tuners are trying to charge the same as Gallardo prices, which is ridiculous?

[Jack B]

Why are you trying to bring out reality?


Sort of my field, but more so my wife's

http://40.media.tumblr.com/195e6201d376dfeee580c1f908834b5d/tumblr_nx0160q0Z81qet9hvo1_1280.png

Everyone wants something for nothing. Everyone thinks it can all be done so cheap, yet they aren't investing their time to do it themselves.

[Nine Ball]

Funny thread.

Well, funny until I keep getting email responses to wheel quotes, asking if I have anything used laying around for a Viper.

Ugh. :)

[rlhay2]

Well, funny until I keep getting email responses to wheel quotes, asking if I have anything used laying around for a Viper.


when buying: everyone wants the "good deal"

when selling: no one wants to be the "good deal"

Much like, cold air is great for engines and terrible for tires. The struggle continues...

[Vprbite]

Funny thread.

Well, funny until I keep getting email responses to wheel quotes, asking if I have anything used laying around for a Viper.

Ugh. :)

With wheels, doesn't our odd bolt pattern drive up the price because each set is , effectively, custom made? So,if people are new to Vipers, they may not be used to the cost of these wheels, that even if we had a normal bolt pattern would they still not be cheap due to size alone? Compared to say, wheels for a mustang?

I'm not saying it should happen, just trying to give a reason.

[Vprbite]

when buying: everyone wants the "good deal"

when selling: no one wants to be the "good deal"

Much like, cold air is great for engines and terrible for tires. The struggle continues...


True. It's rare when two people come together on a deal where both of them concede a bit in that it is good for everyone. I had that recently. It was just selling an RC truck. But the guy buyig it knew what it was worth and it was priced fairly so he didn't try and lowball me. And I figured I could budge a bit on price. So we came to a deal that was fair for both of us. But that was after about 10 offers that were plain insulting. So I got lucky on that one. But yes usually when people want to buy something they approach it like the person selling is a crack addict desperate for his next fix.

[Nine Ball]

With wheels, doesn't our odd bolt pattern drive up the price because each set is , effectively, custom made? So,if people are new to Vipers, they may not be used to the cost of these wheels, that even if we had a normal bolt pattern would they still not be cheap due to size alone? Compared to say, wheels for a mustang?

I'm not saying it should happen, just trying to give a reason.

All of the wheel brands I carry are custom made. None charge extra for drilling 6-lug. Honestly, the Camaro and Mustang guys will outspend Viper guys, when it comes to wheels. Even the Corvette guys spend a lot more on a set of wheels.

The main difference, is that there are no cheap brand Viper wheels sitting on a shelf somewhere. Market is too small for that.

[SADVIPER]

I don't see why a supercharger has to cost that much. I could probably do it for 20 dollars worth of tubing from the Air conditioning supply place. Of course, for my trouble I will tack on 15 bucks. So you can have a full supercharger kit for 35 dollars from vprbite mods inc. if you don't like the kit I send you, simply send it back for a full refund, minus a 10 dollar restocking fee.

I look forward to processing your orders.

Lol spot on