It should be worse!

[BLUETA#1]

I read that the Corvette DNF'd at the car of the year competition:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3719280-motor-trend-driver-s-car.html?this-week-10.01.2015

After installing a new 3-pass radiator and installing an under drive pulley, my car still runs up to 245 after a few hard laps. This sucks. I will take the Arrow Controller out next as a last report. I ordered a new Porsche yesterday….so one way or another this BS is fixed. This is my first and last American car.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

Sorry to hear of all your troubles. Did you order a 911?

[donk_316]

Cool story bro. Ill run that complete post through my "WTF is he talking about" translator and get back to you.

LOL Porsche.

[dethred]

Let the never-ending excuses continue. You can't make this stuff up.

El, oh El.

(Didn't realize the point of this thread, my comment was in regards to the corvette sewer)

[ViperSmith]

Disappointing but curious to see if it is the controller. Best of luck in your Porsche.

[Dman]

So the viper finished behind the Focus one year after having parts fly off the car. The vette finishes behind a Golf with a dnf after melting. Where's the face palm emoji?

[Voice of Reason]

Didn't we establish yours is the only Gen V in the country that's overheating? You should trade cars for a session with someone and see if you can get another to overheat.

[RAY W]

Porsches run cooler with the radiator in the back. You know......so they don't pickup the heat coming off the cars in front of them.

I have been at all day sessions in Las Vegas at the Viper Experience and never saw a single car over heating.

[donk_316]

I'll give you $500 for the Arrow PCM

[Voice of Reason]

I'll give you $500 for the Arrow PCM

That's a lot for a paperweight, it's married to his VIN.

[darbgnik]

Didn't we establish yours is the only Gen V in the country that's overheating? You should trade cars for a session with someone and see if you can get another to overheat.

That's a good experiment, if I were close by, I'd let you take mine for a session.

For the record, the owner of the group that runs the most track rentals at my local track(not my group) states there is no way a stock street legal car can do under 1:30 on our track, and I have been in the 1:29s on it. My oil and engine temps have never gone over mid way. I only state the above to point out that I'm not driving Miss Daisy around the roadcourse, and have no cooling issues.

Either way, this sucks for you. It seems all the warm runners are 2.0s, I wonder why?

[BLUETA#1]

Didn't we establish yours is the only Gen V in the country that's overheating? You should trade cars for a session with someone and see if you can get another to overheat.

NO it is not the only car….my old posts on this issue explain that. The other issue is that the people that I see at the track….that do not over heat…(and I time their laps)….are way slower than may lap times. Last time out was was faster that a couple of the ACR-X race cars.

[BLUETA#1]

Porsches run cooler with the radiator in the back. You know......so they don't pickup the heat coming off the cars in front of them.

I have been at all day sessions in Las Vegas at the Viper Experience and never saw a single car over heating.


That a good one. The Porsche radiators are actually in the front. The old air-cooled ones are in the rear.

I have been to a Viper experience. S-L-O-W.

- - - Updated - - -


Disappointing but curious to see if it is the controller. Best of luck in your Porsche.

I have had 9. Never an issue with those cars…other than dialing out the factory installed understeer!

[darbgnik]

NO it is not the only car….my old posts on this issue explain that. The other issue is that the people that I see at the track….that do not over heat…(and I time their laps)….are way slower than may lap times. Last time out was was faster that a couple of the ACR-X race cars.
Wow. That's very impressive! You're moving.

[lmcgrew79]

BlueTA#1 my TA 1.0 will hit water temps of 240 and the gauge in the water temp gauge starts blinking red after probably 4-6 really hard laps. I can back down for a bit and it will fall off enough for a few more laps. Someone told me it will go into limp at 245 but ive not let it get that far do you know if that happens? Ive also got the arrow controller so maybe its to blame? I just installed high flow cats after my last track day and was thinking it could only help but i havent had it back on track yet, should find out next week. Seems to happen more on tracks that i use 2nd gear alot. I was considering using mix of water wetter, coolant and water which helped my M3, have you tryed that?

[ironpeddler]

I think it sucks you are having these issues. Spent even more money to fix and it nothing helps....the triple pass made no difference at all?? I feel as though you are one of the only ones bringing real world data to the table. Everyone else just internet warriors....I can't believe you get flamed. I would be frustrated also. But maybe you are just one of the few that can actually drive the car at a level that makes it overheat.

[TitanSnake]

Am I the only one who questions what this guys says after he has claimed an air cooled porche has its radiator in the back?

[FLATOUT]

Did the car go into limp mode and actually overheat? Again Dick said oil temps below 300 (seems high I know but there's tons of Viper V10 racing to support his number), and coolant temps below 260 are just fine in his eyes which I trust.

[ACRucrazy]

I ordered a new Porsche yesterday….so one way or another this BS is fixed. This is my first and last American car.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStCV8n1vh0_d5SCfUnFJhHIlrNCCmST J-WEgaCT23aiFgt7X0-nw

[KB Viper]

does anyone know if with the arrow PCM we can go in with HP tuners and change the fan tables? I know when i went to the track in my old ZR1 i flashed in a track tune for race gas and fan adjustments. can we install a colder t-stat with the arrow PCM?

[BLUETA#1]

BlueTA#1 my TA 1.0 will hit water temps of 240 and the gauge in the water temp gauge starts blinking red after probably 4-6 really hard laps. I can back down for a bit and it will fall off enough for a few more laps. Someone told me it will go into limp at 245 but ive not let it get that far do you know if that happens? Ive also got the arrow controller so maybe its to blame? I just installed high flow cats after my last track day and was thinking it could only help but i havent had it back on track yet, should find out next week. Seems to happen more on tracks that i use 2nd gear alot. I was considering using mix of water wetter, coolant and water which helped my M3, have you tryed that?

I tried all the combinations of water wetter, etc. I removed the 6 hood vents, the coil covers, etc. You name it I tried it.

[BLUETA#1]

Am I the only one who questions what this guys says after he has claimed an air cooled porche has its radiator in the back?

OK…its not a radiator…it’s a fan. The air circulation is from the rear deck lid. (I have had 3 AC p-cars.)

[BLUETA#1]

Did the car go into limp mode and actually overheat? Again Dick said oil temps below 300 (seems high I know but there's tons of Viper V10 racing to support his number), and coolant temps below 260 are just fine in his eyes which I trust.

I don't want to toast the car. When the idiot light comes on, I back off. I will say this...with the 3 pass radiator it cooled off really fast. Not even a lap to drop 20 degrees. Part of that could have been the temp….it was only 70 out.

If its not the PCM, then it is the ride height. The ACR-X has a second opening in front down low to help with this. I am not into fabricating a new front end even though I bought a new grill and I was prepared to start down that road.

[BLUETA#1]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStCV8n1vh0_d5SCfUnFJhHIlrNCCmST J-WEgaCT23aiFgt7X0-nw


I should not pile on the American cars. The McClarens overheat as well.

[dethred]

Am I the only one who questions what this guys says after he has claimed an air cooled porche has its radiator in the back?

There's a lot of things that are questionable about this guy. Apparently he should be a factory racecar driver since he's the only one here to be able to push the car to its limit.

Not trying to be mean BlueTA, but there is no design flaw with the Viper's cooling. You are not a unique snowflake, and your insinuating that your Viper problem is even of the same universe of that of the C7Z's engineering shortcomings, casts doubts on much of what you say.

[BLUETA#1]

does anyone know if with the arrow PCM we can go in with HP tuners and change the fan tables? I know when i went to the track in my old ZR1 i flashed in a track tune for race gas and fan adjustments. can we install a colder t-stat with the arrow PCM?

I already talked to Arrow about the fan tables. In hind site I wasted their time. On the track, the fan actually hurts the cooling cause. It restricts airflow. If the car was never on the street, I would remove it. The thermostat does not make a difference. When its open, its open…its all about the relationship with air volume and the water.

[BLUETA#1]

There's a lot of things that are questionable about this guy. Apparently he should be a factory racecar driver since he's the only one here to be able to push the car to its limit.

Not trying to be mean BlueTA, but there is no design flaw with the Viper's cooling. You are not a unique snowflake, and your insinuating that your Viper problem is even of the same universe of that of the C7Z's engineering shortcomings, casts doubts on much of what you say.

I mention my background to eliminate that variable. I have 3 North American titles. All I am saying is that MY CAR cannot be run fast for more than 10 minutes. I teach at the track…I am there at every event and I make it a point to time every Viper that I can. The moment I time a Viper that runs 2:24 at COTA for 5 laps in a row without overheating I will run over and try to learn something. I am not saying others are not driving 10/10ths. They can be…albeit slower lap times. I am not saying every Viper has an issue. I am saying that I am not seeing other fast vipers to get a comparison. I do have a network of other drivers who don't post that overheat.

[RAY W]

Just a few thoughts. Wouldn't the under drive pulley turn the water pump slower? Is it possible the upper radiator hose is collapsing like some of the Gen IV cars? Last maybe check that the thermostat is opening fully by putting it in boiling water.

[Steve M]

does anyone know if with the arrow PCM we can go in with HP tuners and change the fan tables? I know when i went to the track in my old ZR1 i flashed in a track tune for race gas and fan adjustments. can we install a colder t-stat with the arrow PCM?

You absolutely can, but as already stated, that would only matter at slow speeds. Anything over 60-ish MPH is more than sufficient airflow for the radiator to cool properly.

Edit: misread what you wrote. While you COULD do this, you wouldn't want to since you'd overwrite the Arrow calibration with an essentially stock HPTuners calibration.

- - - Updated - - -


Just a few thoughts. Wouldn't the under drive pulley turn the water pump slower? Is it possible the upper radiator hose is collapsing like some of the Gen IV cars? Last maybe check that the thermostat is opening fully by putting it in boiling water.

That might be something worth checking, but you'd almost need to have the car on a dyno to observe it.

[BLUETA#1]

Just a few thoughts. Wouldn't the under drive pulley turn the water pump slower? Is it possible the upper radiator hose is collapsing like some of the Gen IV cars? Last maybe check that the thermostat is opening fully by putting it in boiling water.

I installed cast metal hoses!

I really have spent a ton of time testing things and I have spared no expense trying to beat this.

I also want to add….the car is a great car. Its built well. The parts are cheap. Its fast then S%*T. I run down the the new GT3s and 458s with no problem...until I have to back off and let them by again. (Grrrr.)

I had on order on the new Vette, then Viper came onto my radar with the big price drop. If I got that Vette, I would have pushed it off a bridge by now!

[Voice of Reason]

You absolutely can, but as already stated, that would only matter at slow speeds. Anything over 60-ish MPH is more than sufficient airflow for the radiator to cool properly

I don't think this is correct. If you attempt to use HPTuners on top of an Arrow PCM you'll overwrite the Arrow tune with whatever tune you've created that's based on their canned tune, NOT the Arrow tune. Because HPTuners doesn't really unload the tune in the car if you start with a stock PCM or the Arrow PCM then HPTuners treats them the same. It's unfortunate because I'd love to buy HPTuners at this point to play with it on top of my Arrow tune, but that can't happen.

[RAY W]

I hope you figure it out. Though it may be a little uncomfortable you can put the heater on and turn the fan on high to bleed off a few degrees in a pinch. Not a solution but may show you how close you are to keeping the temp down.

[Steve M]

I don't think this is correct. If you attempt to use HPTuners on top of an Arrow PCM you'll overwrite the Arrow tune with whatever tune you've created that's based on their canned tune, NOT the Arrow tune. Because HPTuners doesn't really unload the tune in the car if you start with a stock PCM or the Arrow PCM then HPTuners treats them the same. It's unfortunate because I'd love to buy HPTuners at this point to play with it on top of my Arrow tune, but that can't happen.

You are correct...totally misread what he wrote. You most definitely would not want to flash an Arrow PCM with HPTuners since you'd lose the Arrow calibration in the process.

[Darius]

I must have one of the special Vipers because mine never goes much above 200 degrees. That was in high 70's low 80's. Low humidity.I think it's more of some weird problem with your car. Sell it and buy a ACR.

[Jack B]

I believe you are correct, that is Arrow's stance.


I don't think this is correct. If you attempt to use HPTuners on top of an Arrow PCM you'll overwrite the Arrow tune with whatever tune you've created that's based on their canned tune, NOT the Arrow tune. Because HPTuners doesn't really unload the tune in the car if you start with a stock PCM or the Arrow PCM then HPTuners treats them the same. It's unfortunate because I'd love to buy HPTuners at this point to play with it on top of my Arrow tune, but that can't happen.

[timberwolf]

Have you run the car without the Arrow Pcm? I bet you see a difference..

[TrackAire]

does anyone know if with the arrow PCM we can go in with HP tuners and change the fan tables? I know when i went to the track in my old ZR1 i flashed in a track tune for race gas and fan adjustments. can we install a colder t-stat with the arrow PCM?


Electric fans are useless at track speeds and actually cause an air restriction through the radiator. They really are for the street or if you're sitting in pre-grid for a long time. Once you're over 60 mph, the fans don't do squat IMO since the airflow through the radiator is much more than the electric fans could ever create.

I would remove the arrow pcm and change thermostats and or play with different orifice restrictors....I got flamed regarding thermostats temps but don't look at the thermostat as a temperature control but use it as flow control. The best radiator in the world won't work correctly unless the coolant flow through it is just right...not too fast and not too slow. What might work on the track may not be correct flow-wise on the street and vice a versa.

The street legal Viper is a compromise in design....put it on the track in the hands of a race car driver and those compromises start to show up.

One other thing to check is the coolant temps with a manual gauge......this would all suck to hell if the temp sensor was reading high by 10 or 12 degrees.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

A frustrating problem that seems like it could have a simple answer, although I know you've tried quite a bit. TrackAire has some good ideas and points. The upgraded radiator cooled faster but had the same result at capacity. Points to perhaps coolant flow rate or aero through the radiator. I know the problem seems to be more common on the TA 2.0, if that's the cause (aero) or result of faster lap times isn't certain.

Stumbled across this, not sure if it would be of any help.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/antifreeze/dominator-coolant-boost/

[BLUETA#1]

Have you run the car without the Arrow Pcm? I bet you see a difference..\

That's next. A lot seems to that "pop" noise. Its accomplished by playing with the exhaust valve timing. I am hoping that leads to the heating. Who knows.

[BLUETA#1]

I must have one of the special Vipers because mine never goes much above 200 degrees. That was in high 70's low 80's. Low humidity.I think it's more of some weird problem with your car. Sell it and buy a ACR.

That's great….send me some tacks and lap times please. I bet that ACR extreme hood would be a huge help. I was so committed to fixing this problem, I tried to source an extreme hood. Lots of luck with that I was told!

[darbgnik]

I don't get why anyone doubts you, I'm one of the fast ones at my track, but not the fastest. It's not inconceivable to run into some one who is faster again than those.....

Seems to me the TA 2.0 aero might make the car faster through the corners, but makes zero difference to the radiator when you're on the skinny pedal. My guess about it being a TA 2.0 specific issue, was that there seems to be the few 2.0 cars, on here at least, that are reporting higher temps. I also can't imagine only fast guys bought a TA 2.0, there would have to be a few fast guys in other models.

[BLUETA#1]

I don't get why anyone doubts you, I'm one of the fast ones at my track, but not the fastest. It's not inconceivable to run into some one who is faster again than those.....

Seems to me the TA 2.0 aero might make the car faster through the corners, but makes zero difference to the radiator when you're on the skinny pedal. My guess about it being a TA 2.0 specific issue, was that there seems to be the few 2.0 cars, on here at least, that are reporting higher temps. I also can't imagine only fast guys bought a TA 2.0, there would have to be a few fast guys in other models.

I am not challenging you to a lay down. I am asking for quantifiable data. Track and lap times help me to compare data. There are a lot of faster drivers than me. I just have not timed one in a Viper to get relevant data.

[darbgnik]

I am not challenging you to a lay down. I am asking for quantifiable data. Track and lap times help me to compare data. There are a lot of faster drivers than me. I just have not timed one in a Viper to get relevant data.

Oh I didn't think you were referring to me. All good.

Just commenting on how some guys were steering the thread.

[BLUETA#1]

Oh I didn't think you were referring to me. All good.

Just commenting on how some guys were steering the thread.


I see a new frontier in the car industry. In the past you could not make these high HP cars and get them insured or keep people from killing themselves in mass. For the most part the computer can keep all the HP in check. Even when you turn off the ESC, the nannies will bail you out. I don't think that these cars are engineered to run 25 minutes at 8/10ths on a track. It’s a lot to ask of a car.

[Bruce H.]

I mention my background to eliminate that variable. I have 3 North American titles. All I am saying is that MY CAR cannot be run fast for more than 10 minutes. I teach at the track…I am there at every event and I make it a point to time every Viper that I can. The moment I time a Viper that runs 2:24 at COTA for 5 laps in a row without overheating I will run over and try to learn something. I am not saying others are not driving 10/10ths. They can be…albeit slower lap times. I am not saying every Viper has an issue. I am saying that I am not seeing other fast vipers to get a comparison. I do have a network of other drivers who don't post that overheat.

Then you could have surmised that a driver such as yourself would push the car to the limit at stock power levels. It should have been, and perhaps was, a gamble as to whether you could mod the car to generate more heat by making more power with the Arrow ECU. You're really not being entirely fair to the car to blame it for you running higher temps.

Very advanced drivers have to take greater care to manage heat, and know that some track layouts, higher ambient temps and use of lower gear/higher revving greatly affects the engine's temps. I have enough track experience with other very aggressively driven top track performers to know that my T/A is still running excellent temps running out front when others are struggling...and somewhere around 100 degrees that I can't take the heat but the car is still doing fine.

I think aggressive track rats have to accept that there likely will be some combination of factors that can cause their production car to run higher temps, and that it's their responsibility under those extreme set of conditions to take steps to manage them. And if they are unwilling to do that on occasion then they are probably at the point where the only solution is a purpose built race car.

Hopefully removing the Arrow will keep temps more in check for your tracking conditions. I know the C7 guys haven't found a rad upgrade to do much to lower temps, and that may be the case with the Gen V as well. I also suspect both cars may benefit more from a front design that increases airflow through the rad as opposed to an improved radiator core.

Good luck with finding a solution, but I have serious doubts that changing to another brand will necessarily be the answer. I'm sure you already considered all other brands before recently choosing the T/A.

Edit: It's my understanding that the Gen V was stress tested by SRT to run flat out on track for something like 24 hours. They purchased a ZR1 to test it the same way and it failed miserably. When GM claims the C7 was stress tested on track, and that it's the most track capable Corvette ever, those claims have been proven false by hundreds of owners. SRT's claim seems to have been proven to be true, even though you run higher temps in your particular situation.

[Stealth]

Interesting discussion ... again.

As noted above, there will always be compromises with street cars; they simply are not actual race cars.

My '14 GTS has seen 2 1-day HPDEs so far: one completely stock when it was about 70F; and one with the Arrow PCM when it was about 85F. The HPDEs were at California Speedway, a high-speed track that also has twisties and heavy deceleration zones. The car was on 91 octane pump gas with factory coolant, etc.

In each 20 minute session my car ran flawlessly. Oil Temps exceeded 240F briefly; temps dropped quickly when rpms dropped a bit. The car was a bit hotter with the Arrow PCM but then the day was about 15F hotter too and I was probably pushing a bit harder that day. I NEVER had a "blinking" or other light indicating high temp.

My car runs 190-195F oil in normal street use. So I really doubt anyone stays at 200F oil at the track unless they are loafing.

A pro driver, or near pro driver, pushing a Gen V (or virtually any car) will certainly see some higher temps. Since the ACR has been billed as able to "run all day, lap after lap" without overheating, by FCA, I would focus on the differences in that car for cooling (more than just the hood).

OP--you defintely dodged a bullet by passing on the C7Z. Once I saw it was supercharged, I decided to move from my Gen IV to Gen V. Please make sure to share any useful tidbits you come across.

[BLUETA#1]

Interesting discussion ... again.

As noted above, there will always be compromises with street cars; they simply are not actual race cars.

My '14 GTS has seen 2 1-day HPDEs so far: one completely stock when it was about 70F; and one with the Arrow PCM when it was about 85F. The HPDEs were at California Speedway, a high-speed track that also has twisties and heavy deceleration zones. The car was on 91 octane pump gas with factory coolant, etc.

In each 20 minute session my car ran flawlessly. Oil Temps exceeded 240F briefly; temps dropped quickly when rpms dropped a bit. The car was a bit hotter with the Arrow PCM but then the day was about 15F hotter too and I was probably pushing a bit harder that day. I NEVER had a "blinking" or other light indicating high temp.

My car runs 190-195F oil in normal street use. So I really doubt anyone stays at 200F oil at the track unless they are loafing.

A pro driver, or near pro driver, pushing a Gen V (or virtually any car) will certainly see some higher temps. Since the ACR has been billed as able to "run all day, lap after lap" without overheating, by FCA, I would focus on the differences in that car for cooling (more than just the hood).

OP--you defintely dodged a bullet by passing on the C7Z. Once I saw it was supercharged, I decided to move from my Gen IV to Gen V. Please make sure to share any useful tidbits you come across.

Lap times?

[Darius]

That's great….send me some tacks and lap times please. I bet that ACR extreme hood would be a huge help. I was so committed to fixing this problem, I tried to source an extreme hood. Lots of luck with that I was told!

1.36.5 at Laguna and 1.43 at Sonoma Raceway. Getting a Porsche is cool, if you like getting passed by Vipers.

[Rapidrezults]

1.36.5 at Laguna and 1.43 at Sonoma Raceway. Getting a Porsche is cool, if you like getting passed by Vipers.

Lol. This is the only reference to a Porsche street car beating a Viper I've seen. He actually bet a Viper ACR hardcore owner $500 and won. This guy is driving this RS to the limits. 1.33 with only 500hp and 339 tq..not too shabby.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xztMgB3Moqo

[TrackAire]

Interesting discussion ... again.

As noted above, there will always be compromises with street cars; they simply are not actual race cars.

My '14 GTS has seen 2 1-day HPDEs so far: one completely stock when it was about 70F; and one with the Arrow PCM when it was about 85F. The HPDEs were at California Speedway, a high-speed track that also has twisties and heavy deceleration zones. The car was on 91 octane pump gas with factory coolant, etc.

In each 20 minute session my car ran flawlessly. Oil Temps exceeded 240F briefly; temps dropped quickly when rpms dropped a bit. The car was a bit hotter with the Arrow PCM but then the day was about 15F hotter too and I was probably pushing a bit harder that day. I NEVER had a "blinking" or other light indicating high temp.

My car runs 190-195F oil in normal street use. So I really doubt anyone stays at 200F oil at the track unless they are loafing.

A pro driver, or near pro driver, pushing a Gen V (or virtually any car) will certainly see some higher temps. Since the ACR has been billed as able to "run all day, lap after lap" without overheating, by FCA, I would focus on the differences in that car for cooling (more than just the hood).

OP--you defintely dodged a bullet by passing on the C7Z. Once I saw it was supercharged, I decided to move from my Gen IV to Gen V. Please make sure to share any useful tidbits you come across.



"Since the ACR has been billed as able to "run all day, lap after lap" without overheating, by FCA, I would focus on the differences in that car for cooling (more than just the hood)."

The above quote, if in fact put out by FCA is not going to be true especially if the car is driven by a pro. Even if the cars engine would not over heat, the trans and rear end would.

The number one cause for cars having over heated engines, brakes and drive train is sticky tires. If you but a street orientated tire on a performance car, that limits its overall grip, traction, etc. You just can't drive as deep into the corners, brake as hard and carry the lateral G's that a R-compound or equivalent tire can produce. Standard tires are the fusible link to help keep the car from going over its thermal threshold.

As soon as you put sticky tires on a car that didn't come from the factory with it, then all bets are off because you've exceeded anything the factory engineers tested for. The TA's, C7 Z06, and ACR come with very high performance tires that will allow faster lap times than standard tires. The manufacturers of these cars should make sure they can run a 25 minute HPDE session with a pro driver and not overheat at minimum 95 degree ambient temps IMO.

[TrackAire]

Lol. This is the only reference to a Porsche street car beating a Viper I've seen. He even bet a Viper ACR hardcore owner $500. This guy is driving this RS to the limits. 1.33 with only 500hp and 339 tq..not too shabby.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xztMgB3Moqo


That is a great lap, but how many did he do in a row at those lap times? Hero laps make great bragging rights but can that car do this for 20 minutes non-stop??
(maybe the Porsche can, IDK for sure).

In my experience, as soon as I hit traffic my lap times can be up to 10 seconds a lap slower if I can't get past them quickly. That makes a huge difference in how much thermal load the car generates. A couple of "slow laps" and a couple of all out laps and the car may not ever over heat if this cycle is done over and over again.....which often happens at HPDE track days.

Cheers,
George

[Rapidrezults]

That is a great lap, but how many did he do in a row at those lap times? Hero laps make great bragging rights but can that car do this for 20 minutes non-stop??
(maybe the Porsche can, IDK for sure).

In my experience, as soon as I hit traffic my lap times can be up to 10 seconds a lap slower if I can't get past them quickly. That makes a huge difference in how much thermal load the car generates. A couple of "slow laps" and a couple of all out laps and the car may not ever over heat if this cycle is done over and over again.....which often happens at HPDE track days.

Cheers,
George

I have no idea how Porsche's run at the track at sustained load, but I thought it was interesting because it's the only Porsche video that I've seen with a stock car with R6's running 1.33's at Laguna.

[Darius]

I have no idea how Porsche's run at the track at sustained load, but I thought it was interesting because it's the only Porsche video that I've seen with a stock car with R6's running 1.33's at Laguna.

Ya those 4.0's are bad ass, to bad they want close to 500k for them now.

[Rapidrezults]

Ya those 4.0's are bad ass, to bad they want close to 500k for them now.

Hopefully, an ACR Extreme will appreciate to half that one day. :)

[Nine Ball]

That's great….send me some tacks and lap times please. I bet that ACR extreme hood would be a huge help. I was so committed to fixing this problem, I tried to source an extreme hood. Lots of luck with that I was told!

The ACR extreme has the exact same six vents that your TA hood has. Those other vents are above the wheel wells, to reduce pressure in that wheel well. They won't help with cooling at all, since that wheel well is isolated from the engine bay via gaskets. Go pop your hood on the TA, the vent would be where the rock guards are under your current hood.

[GTSilver]

That is a great lap, but how many did he do in a row at those lap times? Hero laps make great bragging rights but can that car do this for 20 minutes non-stop??
(maybe the Porsche can, IDK for sure).

In my experience, as soon as I hit traffic my lap times can be up to 10 seconds a lap slower if I can't get past them quickly. That makes a huge difference in how much thermal load the car generates. A couple of "slow laps" and a couple of all out laps and the car may not ever over heat if this cycle is done over and over again.....which often happens at HPDE track days.

Cheers,
George

Coming from a porsche gt2 that has been tracked here in our part of the world (Bahrain International circuit) where weathers here are suitable for track days its around 25-30 celcius which isnt that cool to be honest but i've been tracking my car for the past 6 years and knock on wood without any issues. I'm not promoting porsche however they make great relaible track cars due to their years in motorsports. I run my car for around 20-25 minutes without any issues, to be honest i get worked out and tired before the car does due to heat and concentration. Its not a quincedence that the majority of tracks around the world you'll always see a 911 because they are that reliable and dont have any heating issues or other track related issues. The only thing is the factory understeer that you need to work around in terms of alignment and car setup. My best lap time was 2:13 and i still see there's more time to improve because a friend with a gt2 best time was 2:12, for reference a multi gt3 cup middle east and 458 challenge winner both in asia and europe and lemans podium racer got 2:10 in his mclaren p1.

In my opinion i think a dry sump with a bigger tank could really benefit the viper in terms of oil temps and different oil viscosity as well. A radiator as well but as seen by the OP it only helped with the time to cool after a hot lap.

Last thing the lap time of the 4.0 was from Jesse a forum member at rennlist but there are other members that have achienved faster lap times on LS.

Thanks
Yousif

[BLUETA#1]

1.36.5 at Laguna and 1.43 at Sonoma Raceway. Getting a Porsche is cool, if you like getting passed by Vipers.

Is mostly the driver. I have tracked Porsches for years without issues. I was at a Viper club event and I was passing several Vipers in my modified Golf R and I was in the fastest run group. Yes some Vipers kicked my ass, but I was faster than other Vipers. I am not slamming the Viper…its does not suit my desire to drive quickly for 25 minutes. I posted here for help and I get a lot of denial and debate!

[ACRucrazy]

Your first post did not have one question. It was a rant and statement about the Viper being your first and last American car. Also noting hour just ordered a new Porsche and dragging in the POS Z06 into the mix.. I don't know how you could expect this thread to go any other way.

[sadil]

So what Porsche are you planning to gef? 911 GT3? Turbo?

[XSnake]

Were all your previous 9 Porsches street cars? Were your 3 National titles in a Cup car? Hope we aren't comparing races cars to street cars here.

IMO, if you found a way to seal the top of the radiator to prevent air from going over it and forcing it through you'd probably solve your issue.

[Coloviper]

Pull the Mopar PCM and run without it next time. A few others seem to have posted issues with heat after install of Mopar PCM. Having modded many cars, including my 06' Coupe when I had it, my current 96' RT and countless Saleens, it seems like only a left as stock car can provide repeatable reliability anymore.

I don't have experience with the new Gen V but in my other cars, I have added Snow Performance Methanol Injection with great success and it helped a lot. Heat and high altitude are even worse to deal with. The methanol injection really helped.

Nothing wrong with a Porsche car, though there are a ton out there. In the end before you give up hope, I would just go back over the check list. No air bubble in the coolant system. Check and even replace the hoses with high performance silicon ones as seems a cavetate issue potential. Check or even replace the thermostat with lower temp one if desired. Lastly, check the water pump.

If none of those are at fault, can't be the cooling system and it is something more severe.

Hey my 04' Cayenne just started to have increasing heat issues random, but is consistent while climbing a hill under load. Never had an issue before but just clicked over 77k miles. Goes up, comes down. I need to figure it out but cooling issues are bitch to resolve. Start easy items then move from there.

My gut, and it is just gut, tells me the TA2.0 needs stronger radiator hoses and when under a lot of heat, they just soften up and cavetate.

[BLUETA#1]

Were all your previous 9 Porsches street cars? Were your 3 National titles in a Cup car? Hope we aren't comparing races cars to street cars here.

IMO, if you found a way to seal the top of the radiator to prevent air from going over it and forcing it through you'd probably solve your issue.

Yes..but set up for the track.
I wish! Never drove one.
I would not do that. I have however studied the cooling systems in the Viper race cars. (The radiator almost lays flat.)
Yes, we sealed all the air leaks.

[BLUETA#1]

Pull the Mopar PCM and run without it next time. A few others seem to have posted issues with heat after install of Mopar PCM. Having modded many cars, including my 06' Coupe when I had it, my current 96' RT and countless Saleens, it seems like only a left as stock car can provide repeatable reliability anymore.

I don't have experience with the new Gen V but in my other cars, I have added Snow Performance Methanol Injection with great success and it helped a lot. Heat and high altitude are even worse to deal with. The methanol injection really helped.

Nothing wrong with a Porsche car, though there are a ton out there. In the end before you give up hope, I would just go back over the check list. No air bubble in the coolant system. Check and even replace the hoses with high performance silicon ones as seems a cavetate issue potential. Check or even replace the thermostat with lower temp one if desired. Lastly, check the water pump.

If none of those are at fault, can't be the cooling system and it is something more severe.

Hey my 04' Cayenne just started to have increasing heat issues random, but is consistent while climbing a hill under load. Never had an issue before but just clicked over 77k miles. Goes up, comes down. I need to figure it out but cooling issues are bitch to resolve. Start easy items then move from there.

My gut, and it is just gut, tells me the TA2.0 needs stronger radiator hoses and when under a lot of heat, they just soften up and cavetate.


I put in aluminum hoses…no way they are collapsing. Did everything you mentioned above exempt the water pump. Doing the ECU comparison in a couple weeks.

Talk about hills…my favorite race was Pikes Peak. The GT3's dominate the class and I was considering setting this car up for Pikes Peak. I ran water/menthol injection on the last car I raced up there…I think the Viper would need more than that.

[XSnake]

Yes..but set up for the track.


So you had to modify them as well?

[Blue T/A 2.0]

With all this negative rap, it makes me wonder if I should get rid of my TA while I can before they go the way of the ZO6/7 and get me a Porsche. I have really liked my TA up till now, but now I wonder if it is worth keeping.

[TIME]

This is a great thread. Did it overheat in stock form?
What if you, BlueTA#1, could borrow a car that never overheat, and then run them, one after the other. If yours overheat, and the other does not, well then there might be a difference. It is tough to compare though, if the cars are not set up the same way but it could give an indication, as it will be the same driver in different cars.
For sure, we can do the experiment with my totally stock TA1.0 if you are out west - in return for some lessons of course.

[ViperSmith]

With all this negative rap, it makes me wonder if I should get rid of my TA while I can before they go the way of the ZO6/7 and get me a Porsche. I have really liked my TA up till now, but now I wonder if it is worth keeping.

"All this negative rap" - not to be a jerk but you have a modified car that is overheating and you are virtually the only person reporting it.

It sounds like there is an issue with your car, but to act like it is having the issues the Z06 is having is a stretch. I do hope you can pinpoint the issue and hopefully get it resolved.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

"All this negative rap" - not to be a jerk but you have a modified car that is overheating and you are virtually the only person reporting it.

It sounds like there is an issue with your car, but to act like it is having the issues the Z06 is having is a stretch. I do hope you can pinpoint the issue and hopefully get it resolved.

My car is stock, no issues. I am Blue T/A 2.0. The car with the issues is Blue TA#1. He has already ordered a new Porsche.

[ViperSmith]

My car is stock, no issues. I am Blue T/A 2.0. The car with the issues is Blue TA#1. He has already ordered a new Porsche.

Apologize. I wonder if it is something with the TA 2 then? Lots of guys running them hard, but haven't heard much about the TA 2.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

Apologize. I wonder if it is something with the TA 2 then? Lots of guys running them hard, but haven't heard much about the TA 2.

No problem, those names are close. Not sure about the TA 2.0, but I hate to think it is afflicted with issues particular to it and continues to be in the spot light with all this negative rap. Full disclosure, I have not tracked mine, so I do not have any real world info to share, but you won't be able to give one away if this bad rap continues...

[BLUETA#1]

"All this negative rap" - not to be a jerk but you have a modified car that is overheating and you are virtually the only person reporting it.

It sounds like there is an issue with your car, but to act like it is having the issues the Z06 is having is a stretch. I do hope you can pinpoint the issue and hopefully get it resolved.

You missed my point…or I could have been more clear. The vette is un-drivable on the track. At least I can get 3 good laps, recover and get another few. Yes, I am the only person "reporting it" but I am not the only person experiencing it.

[BLUETA#1]

This is a great thread. Did it overheat in stock form?
What if you, BlueTA#1, could borrow a car that never overheat, and then run them, one after the other. If yours overheat, and the other does not, well then there might be a difference. It is tough to compare though, if the cars are not set up the same way but it could give an indication, as it will be the same driver in different cars.
For sure, we can do the experiment with my totally stock TA1.0 if you are out west - in return for some lessons of course.


I made a big mistake….I modified it before delivery. I never got to drive it stock. In hind site, I that was not very bright. I planned to switch cars, but I don't want to push someone another person's car. I have had a fast ride in a Viper a while ago….but it was only for 2 laps.

[BLUETA#1]

So you had to modify them as well?


The only bad rap on the Porsche are the alignment needs when delivered. I have added tie-rod ends to gain more camber, changed the spring rates, etc. I have never touched a motor except on a twin turbo that I had…I did a minor tune on the motor. The only Porsche that I did not have to modify was my RS….that hauled A** right out of the box.

A friend of mine races a Porsche cup car and he brought out his '15 GT3 street car Friday. He runs 2 seconds a lap quicker than me and his temp never got above 185.

[kaamacat]

Porsches run cooler with the radiator in the back. You know......so they don't pickup the heat coming off the cars in front of them.

I have been at all day sessions in Las Vegas at the Viper Experience and never saw a single car over heating.

Not sure what Porsche you are talking about...I had a 2011 GT3RS and it had 3 rads for various cooling items, left/center/right front
fender and hood areas.

[ViperDC]

ViperExchange should hire this guy to drive their GT3 car next year! Ultimate driver

[Voice of Reason]

On second thought I don't know why we're arguing with you. Enjoy your Porche and best of luck in your future endeavors.

[BLUETA#1]

ViperExchange should hire this guy to drive their GT3 car next year! Ultimate driver

That is a ridiculous assumption and its pointless. My car overheats when on the track and I am not a newbie who is clueless. "My car does not overheat does not help me." This last post was a culmination of months of posts on this issue.

[BLUETA#1]

On second thought I don't know why we're arguing with you.

I have asked that question myself.

[ViperDC]

I have asked that question myself.

So whats the point of the thread? To let us know youre buying a Porsche? Go for it, cool story brah

[FLATOUT]

My only comment is that at this point it has not overheated. Elevated temps yes but we know the Viper V10 lives just fine with the temps you have seen thus far. We also know that the Gen V race cars handle endurance racing quite well and just won the Patron Endurance cup so we know it can live without incident for extended periods of time at lap times quicker than you're seeing, so there's hope ;)

[fuggles]

Congratulations to the #93 Riley Motorsports/TI Automotive/Viper Exchange Dodge Viper for winning the Tequila Patrón North American Endurance Cup Championship.
First at the 24hr at Daytona
First at the 6hr at the Glen
Fourth at the 12hr of Sebring
First to the 4hr mark of the Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta
http://www.imsa.com/articles/no-5-action-express-corvette-dp-clinches-patron-endurance-cup

Awesome!

[Nambo]

My only comment is that at this point it has not overheated. Elevated temps yes but we know the Viper V10 lives just fine with the temps you have seen thus far. We also know that the Gen V race cars handle endurance racing quite well and just won the Patron Endurance cup so we know it can live without incident for extended periods of time at lap times quicker than you're seeing, so there's hope ;)

Andy,

Wasn't Ben running 2:22:xx laps in his white TA on street tires at the COTA VOA event? He didn't mention any cooling issues at the time did he?

JD

[kaamacat]

Congratulations for the run at Road Atlanta this past weekend...!!! I was lucky enough to be there in
at the SRT trailer, meet the drivers... and have a good talk with BenK about what I really need to
ask the wife for this xmas with regards to a suspension upgrade! The wife and I had an outstanding
day despite the weather. (My car and one of the past ViperExchange cars had the whole parking area
to ourselves)

[FLATOUT]

Andy,

Wasn't Ben running 2:22:xx laps in his white TA on street tires at the COTA VOA event? He didn't mention any cooling issues at the time did he?

JD

No he went 2:29 that day on street tires, ARROW ECU, and boltons, basically just like you and I were setup that day. Ben did run some incredibly fast laps in that TA at MSR as well and he never had any issues heat. I do think some of it could be happening with sustained really high RPM driving or just general driving style.

I want to rule out the Arrow ECU though so hopefully he swaps the stocker back in and gives it another go.

[nuviper]

Hi Blue TA#1, I'm the Blue TA#7:) and I also tracked my car this summer. I tracked with my friends' Z07 and new 991 GT3 on the same track at the same day and we ran 30 min a session. I had a very similar lap time with the Z07 and when his temp reached 270F, mine never exceeded 200. I also compared it with the GT3 (sorry that I forgot his temp because this guy did not get overheat issue either:)) and we both agreed that the viper's cooling is as good as, if not better than, the GT3's. I know that lap time will affect you cooling a lot. And I believe you are a very quick driver. If my memory works well, you TA#1 was bought from Woodhouse and it got update when it arrived the dealership in preparation for the Pike Peak hill climb race (read from their Facebook page). But I do think that at the stock stage, this car's cooling is not very far behind the one of the new stock 911.

best,
nuviper

[BLUETA#1]

No he went 2:29 that day on street tires, ARROW ECU, and boltons, basically just like you and I were setup that day. Ben did run some incredibly fast laps in that TA at MSR as well and he never had any issues heat. I do think some of it could be happening with sustained really high RPM driving or just general driving style.

I want to rule out the Arrow ECU though so hopefully he swaps the stocker back in and gives it another go.

I was in the car with him. He ran 2 great laps then got off.

[BLUETA#1]

My only comment is that at this point it has not overheated. Elevated temps yes but we know the Viper V10 lives just fine with the temps you have seen thus far. We also know that the Gen V race cars handle endurance racing quite well and just won the Patron Endurance cup so we know it can live without incident for extended periods of time at lap times quicker than you're seeing, so there's hope ;)

Now we are comparing the cooling system of a race specific car to a street car. It's time to punch out. You guys win…

[BLUETA#1]

I was posting in the wrong forum….I need to move this over to the track forum. It’s a bit more informative over there. For example:

Track High Plains Raceway near Byers, CO. Altitude is 5088 feet. Both test days were clear and nice with low humidity.

Baseline - Last time I was at the track
Ambient Temp 77
Stock Pulley
10-40 Mobil 1
Headers
No insulation on anything except O2 wires
Doug Shelby air box shield
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Coolant Max 243 after 15 minutes
Oil Max 263 after 15 minutes
IAT 95
Testing had to be halted due to melted wire harness

First run today
Ambient 73
Underdrive pulley
Doug Shelby air box shield removed
Headers
15-50 Mobil 1
Water Wetter
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Insulation on most everything including cooling lines, PDC, and harness
Coolant Max 225 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 240 after 30 minutes
IAT 95

Second run today
Ambient 86
Same mods as first run except
OEM PCM
Coolant Max 226 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 246 after 30 minutes
IAT 104

Third run today
Ambient 89
Same mods as first and second run except
Arrow PCM reinstalled
Coolant Max 240 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 258 after 30 minutes
IAT 105

A friend was also at the track today with his 2014 GTS. It is bone stock. He is a comparable driver to me at this track. He was running 238 coolant with oil around 250. Seems too hot even for a bone stock car.

[Darius]

My only comment is that at this point it has not overheated. Elevated temps yes but we know the Viper V10 lives just fine with the temps you have seen thus far. We also know that the Gen V race cars handle endurance racing quite well and just won the Patron Endurance cup so we know it can live without incident for extended periods of time at lap times quicker than you're seeing, so there's hope ;)

Exactly, look the car has a 5 year warranty if left stock. Who cares if it's running hot. Run it as hard as you can and if it blows up take it back to the dealer and let them deal with it. That's what I do, seems to work:drive:

[FLATOUT]

Now we are comparing the cooling system of a race specific car to a street car. It's time to punch out. You guys win…

Don't get mad lol. You're running your TA on Hoosiers, with the Arrow ECU, on Motons. Your car has far exceeded what the factory engineers designed it to do so why would you not start looking into the Viper Race cars cooling system? Also the other TA you mentioned doesn't run anywhere near the times you do. And also that car IS NOT OVERHEATING even with it running 2 tow hooks in front of the radiator.

[FLATOUT]

Exactly, look the car has a 5 year warranty if left stock. Who cares if it's running hot. Run it as hard as you can and if it blows up take it back to the dealer and let them deal with it. That's what I do, seems to work:drive:

Bingo.

[Nine Ball]

I was posting in the wrong forum….I need to move this over to the track forum. It’s a bit more informative over there. For example:

Track High Plains Raceway near Byers, CO. Altitude is 5088 feet. Both test days were clear and nice with low humidity.

Baseline - Last time I was at the track
Ambient Temp 77
Stock Pulley
10-40 Mobil 1
Headers
No insulation on anything except O2 wires
Doug Shelby air box shield
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Coolant Max 243 after 15 minutes
Oil Max 263 after 15 minutes
IAT 95
Testing had to be halted due to melted wire harness

First run today
Ambient 73
Underdrive pulley
Doug Shelby air box shield removed
Headers
15-50 Mobil 1
Water Wetter
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Insulation on most everything including cooling lines, PDC, and harness
Coolant Max 225 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 240 after 30 minutes
IAT 95

Second run today
Ambient 86
Same mods as first run except
OEM PCM
Coolant Max 226 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 246 after 30 minutes
IAT 104

Third run today
Ambient 89
Same mods as first and second run except
Arrow PCM reinstalled
Coolant Max 240 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 258 after 30 minutes
IAT 105

A friend was also at the track today with his 2014 GTS. It is bone stock. He is a comparable driver to me at this track. He was running 238 coolant with oil around 250. Seems too hot even for a bone stock car.

Those temps do not look bad at all. Do you have catalytics on the car? Most have been known to melt at around 550-600 rwhp. I had it happen on my Paxton Gen 3 before, as well as a supercharged Z06 I had. Ditch the cats, they also trap heat in the engine. And, remove one or both of those tow hooks. Every square inch of grille opening matters.

[ViperGeorge]

Blue TA#1 is not the only person having or reporting heating issues. I posted the following in the Track Temps Revisited thread in the Track section.

Track High Plains Raceway near Byers, CO. Altitude is 5088 feet. Both test days were clear and nice with low humidity.

Baseline - Last time I was at the track
Ambient Temp 77
Stock Pulley
10-40 Mobil 1
Headers
No insulation on anything except O2 wires
Doug Shelby air box shield
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Coolant Max 243 after 15 minutes
Oil Max 263 after 15 minutes
IAT 95
Testing had to be halted due to melted wire harness

First run today
Ambient 73
Underdrive pulley
Doug Shelby air box shield removed
Headers
15-50 Mobil 1
Water Wetter
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Insulation on most everything including cooling lines, PDC, and harness
Coolant Max 225 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 240 after 30 minutes
IAT 95

Second run today
Ambient 86
Same mods as first run except
OEM PCM
Coolant Max 226 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 246 after 30 minutes
IAT 104

Third run today
Ambient 89
Same mods as first and second run except
Arrow PCM reinstalled
Coolant Max 240 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 258 after 30 minutes
IAT 105

A friend was also at the track today with his 2014 GTS. It is bone stock. He is a comparable driver to me at this track. He was running 238 coolant with oil around 250. Seems too hot even for a bone stock car.

[FLATOUT]

Those temps do not look bad at all. Do you have catalytics on the car? Most have been known to melt at around 550-600 rwhp. I had it happen on my Paxton Gen 3 before, as well as a supercharged Z06 I had. Ditch the cats, they also trap heat in the engine. And, remove one or both of those tow hooks. Every square inch of grille opening matters.

I believe that car currently has full factory exhaust and one tow hook up front. Upgraded radiator, hard coolant lines, coolant is 1/3 coolant and 2/3rds water. We also replaced the temp sensors just as a precaution.

[mjorgensen]

Don't get mad lol. You're running your TA on Hoosiers, with the Arrow ECU, on Motons. Your car has far exceeded what the factory engineers designed it to do so why would you not start looking into the Viper Race cars cooling system? Also the other TA you mentioned doesn't run anywhere near the times you do. And also that car IS NOT OVERHEATING even with it running 2 tow hooks in front of the radiator.

LOL Andy, you know full well he is on MCS and we both know why you know that... Karl is basically "stock" with the exception of the Arrow PCM (and well, the MCS we set up for him to "help" be that fast) 2.24 times over and over... Ben ran 2.29 with much more power and your suspension on Corsa's? (I bet which are pretty sticky compared to regular street tires) I have not ruled out there being something going on with Karl's car, it was at your shop and you found nothing wrong really though correct? I would hope we could keep him in the car since he is fast and represents the Viper very well at the track. He also is capable of giving great feedback about it, he is just not happy at the moment.

I'm glad he is consciences enough to not just run it to the edge and "have warranty deal with it" that to me shows real character and professionalism, I'm sure SRT feels the same.

[Nambo]

LOL Andy, you know full well he is on MCS and we both know why you know that... Karl is basically "stock" with the exception of the Arrow PCM (and well, the MCS we set up for him to "help" be that fast) 2.24 times over and over... Ben ran 2.29 with much more power and your suspension on Corsa's? (I bet which are pretty sticky compared to regular street tires) I have not ruled out there being something going on with Karl's car, it was at your shop and you found nothing wrong really though correct? I would hope we could keep him in the car since he is fast and represents the Viper very well at the track. He also is capable of giving great feedback about it, he is just not happy at the moment.

I'm glad he is consciences enough to not just run it to the edge and "have warranty deal with it" that to me shows real character and professionalism, I'm sure SRT feels the same.

Karl is definitely smoking around COTA! I hope he does a run with the stock ECU to compare because I think the Arrow ECU makes the car run hotter than stock. I have never seen temps as high as Karl ( I am a whopping 8 seconds slower) but I have run COTA with the stock ECM, HP tuners, and Arrow and the Arrow exhibited the highest temps (and melted O2 wires).

[FLATOUT]

Sorry I still reffer to MCS's as Motons by habit yes he is on MCS's. Bens times were not on our suspension he was still on stock TA Dampers with the DSC controller but we found that day that the DSC cant control the non dynamic factory shock so he went 2.29 with boltons, arrow controller, on a factory tire.

I have talked to Dick as much as you have and he still doesn't seem to be too concerned with the temps which is why I want to see two things. 1. swap the factory ECU back in it and lets see what happens. 2. Run the car harder for a few extra laps and lets see what happens.

This is not the normal case as you and I both know so if Dick says it's safe at the temps he's seeing why keep saying that it's overheating?

If this particular case was an easy fix we would have found it already.

Yes his car was at our shop and I am in agreement with you that we didn't find anything out of the ordinary other than a chalkyness to the coolant when we drained it to do the radiator swap. I spoke with Morgan and Brian Erdman more about it this weekend and it was either water wetter or really hard water that was in it. We flushed the system literally 5 times to make sure all of that was out of it before refilling.

Andy


LOL Andy, you know full well he is on MCS and we both know why you know that... Karl is basically "stock" with the exception of the Arrow PCM (and well, the MCS we set up for him to "help" be that fast) 2.24 times over and over... Ben ran 2.29 with much more power and your suspension on Corsa's? (I bet which are pretty sticky compared to regular street tires) I have not ruled out there being something going on with Karl's car, it was at your shop and you found nothing wrong really though correct? I would hope we could keep him in the car since he is fast and represents the Viper very well at the track. He also is capable of giving great feedback about it, he is just not happy at the moment.

I'm glad he is consciences enough to not just run it to the edge and "have warranty deal with it" that to me shows real character and professionalism, I'm sure SRT feels the same.

[FLATOUT]

Karl is definitely smoking around COTA! I hope he does a run with the stock ECU to compare because I think the Arrow ECU makes the car run hotter than stock. I have never seen temps as high as Karl ( I am a whopping 8 seconds slower) but I have run COTA with the stock ECM, HP tuners, and Arrow and the Arrow exhibited the highest temps (and melted O2 wires).

I am also really interested in seeing the stock ECU comparo.

[XSnake]

Wouldn't hard metal coolant lines just heat the coolant more once they are hot and coolant is passing through them? Not sure if I would do that. Putting a spring in the rubber ones is the way to go imo.

[Stealth]

I do not think the ECU is the issue, except if you are running 93 Octane and running hard you may generate a bit more heat and power.

My Gen IV Viper loved to have some heat in it in terms of power, etc.

My Gen V does get hotter at a HPDE than it does on the street, but how could this not be the case? 195-200F Oil is standard on the street with a bit of traffic. If the car is being wrung out--in a good way--on a road course, it will surely run hotter. More power = more heat. to expect to run the same temps on the track as the car runs when loafing on the street is not realistic. I look at the Arrow PCM as the tune SRT and Arrow preferred for the car, absent regulations, etc.

I am definitely in agreement with OP on this thread and with others on other threads (even the C7Z forum), that driving style and speed impact heat; clearly, the higher the rpms and the faster the lap, the more heat. Increased power also generates more heat. Thus far I have not seen any credible evidence of any Gen Vs getting "warning lights", going in to limp mode, etc. The C7Z is a completely different situation as that car appears to have known design...shortcomings, etc.

On most road courses I have run in cars and bikes, there are often choices in terms of gears and shift points for various portions of the track. With cars like Vipers and C7Zs, the ample torque provides more choices that some other cars.

Most street cars will require modification to be able to run flat out at high rpms for extended periods of time. There is a line somewhere between having some safe and fast HPDE time on one hand (Gen Vs are excellent here!), and actually racing or seeking to set the track record on the other hand. In the later category, there are concerns other than just cooling: fire suppression; full roll cage; etc.

Again, I would check the equipment changes on the new ACR--I believe it has dif and tranny coolers or something to ensure even more robust, sustained track performance.

Best wishes for the solutions which allow you to enjoy your Gen V or, alternatively, your new Porsche.

[FLATOUT]

The new ACR's do not have diff coolers, but the X diff coolers bolt up to the Gen V's without much fanfair.

I know that we had one other owner at COTA the day I was there with them that mentioned to me that he saw some really high temps but after we got to talking he told me he was running the S's at COTA in second gear (he would have run that entire section at like 5000-6000 rpm). He went out next session and ran that stint faster in third gear and didn't see any where near the temps he saw running that section in 2nd.

- - - Updated - - -

The new ACR's do not have diff or tranny coolers, but the X diff coolers bolt up to the Gen V's without much fanfair.

I know that we had one other owner at COTA the day I was there with them that mentioned to me that he saw some really high temps but after we got to talking he told me he was running the S's at COTA in second gear (he would have run that entire section at like 5000-6000 rpm). He went out next session and ran that stint faster in third gear and didn't see any where near the temps he saw running that section in 2nd.

- - - Updated - - -

The new ACR's do not have diff or tranny coolers, but the X diff coolers bolt up to the Gen V's without much fanfair.

I know that we had one other owner at COTA the day I was there with them that mentioned to me that he saw some really high temps but after we got to talking he told me he was running the S's at COTA in second gear (he would have run that entire section at like 5000-6000 rpm). He went out next session and ran that stint faster in third gear and didn't see any where near the temps he saw running that section in 2nd.

[ViperGeorge]

The Gen 5s run hotter than a similarly equipped Gen 4 in the same hands. My 09 ACR had headers, Mopar controller, two tow hooks up front and never, never went above 210 on the track here in Colorado. My TA 2.0 regularly hits 240+ and I would wager I am not as quick as Blue TA #1. A friend in a bone stock 14 GTS was seeing 238 on the same day I was there. Now I know Dick says that these temps are ok BUT why does the idiot light flash then when it hits 240? Are we just supposed to ignore it? Why does the PCM pull timing and add fuel at temps well below that? Why is a Gen 5 hotter than a Gen 4 even though the radiator is better sealed?

Blue TA#! is correct. When I see the idiot light flashing I back off I don't want to risk blowing something. I can see it now, you blow the engine and the warranty department reads your PCM and says "oh, you drove this when the warning light was flashing, claim denied."

Look I am a huge Viperholic. I have three including two Gen 5s. BUT these newer cars run hotter when driven hard - modded or not. Period. I would love to see a fix for this. I was really hoping the bigger radiator was the answer.

Any chance there is a bad batch of thermostats that don't open fully? Just wondering.

[Stealth]

Are you guys seeing the flashing "idiot light" on the dash or on the separate SRT Gage Pack Display? Maybe I have been watching the road and just missed the light?

[ViperGeorge]

SRT will rightfully not address heating issues with cars that have been modified (PCM, slicks, tow hooks, whatever). If Karl returns his car to stock (street tires and all) and still sees higher temps then maybe SRT would comment. I believe their threshold for temps is 250 in 100 ambient for a 20 minute session. If Karl hits those temps in 10 minutes or 15 then maybe we could get SRT to look into this. I would try this myself but my car has headers and they would be more difficult to swap out.

[ViperGeorge]

Are you guys seeing the flashing "idiot light" on the dash or on the separate SRT Gage Pack Display? Maybe I have been watching the road and just missed the light?

On the dash. Upper right above tach. The location may be configurable as might be the choice of even displaying coolant temp. I think you may be able to display voltage there as well. Not sure what happens to idiot light if you are not displaying coolant temp.

[TrackAire]

Wouldn't hard metal coolant lines just heat the coolant more once they are hot and coolant is passing through them? Not sure if I would do that. Putting a spring in the rubber ones is the way to go imo.

Aluminum tubing would actually dissipate the heat out of the coolant as long as the coolant was hotter than the under hood ambient temps. Apparently in this situation, the coolant is way hotter than the under hood ambient temps.

[FLATOUT]

On the dash. Upper right above tach. The location may be configurable as might be the choice of even displaying coolant temp. I think you may be able to display voltage there as well. Not sure what happens to idiot light if you are not displaying coolant temp.

George have you tried running without 2 front tow hooks?

[RAY W]

It is possible that the difference in temperature between Gen IV and the V running at the same tracks is the 3:55 rear gear.

[BLUETA#1]

I read all the posts….

2nd gear in the esses caught my eye…yikes that's scary! I use 3rd all the way.

Ben's car had the lowering caps on…it was not technically stock.

My back-to-back ECU test will be on the first Saturday of November.

The fastest video lap of a Viper that I can find is a 2:23 by Mike Skeen in an older ACR. I wonder how long that car would run at that level for? It sounds a bit like he has street tires on so I bet in Hoosiers he's a 2:20 at least. That's fast…..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7hTuLoog0

[TrackAire]

I hate that video of Mike Skeen.......he makes it look too easy and smooth, lol.

[XSnake]

I hate that video of Mike Skeen.......he makes it look too easy and smooth, lol.

Thats the fastest way to drive these cars, no need to be on the limiter driving like a maniac. You will just get bit.

[ViperGeorge]

George have you tried running without 2 front tow hooks?

That was another test I was going to run but didn't have the time. On the other hand my friend with the bone stock GTS only had one tow hook and his temps were almost as high as mine (within 2 degrees). Mark from IPSCO was at the track with me and we had looked at the tow hooks prior to that. While they block a little of the radiator, it is a very little. Given the stock GTS was running hot too I don't think that is the problem. Does Blue TA#1 run hooks up front? Given he has a larger radiator I would think if he was the radiator would make up for them easily but they didn't.

I'd still like an answer though to my previous questions - Why have an idiot light that goes on at 240 if the car is safe to 250 or 255? If the PCM pulls timing and adds fuel at temps below 240 (which has been confirmed by the tables that have been posted) then power will be lower. So even if 250-255 is safe we are losing power - no? And why are Gen 5s running hotter than similarly equipped Gen 4s?

[Nine Ball]

I believe that car currently has full factory exhaust and one tow hook up front. Upgraded radiator, hard coolant lines, coolant is 1/3 coolant and 2/3rds water. We also replaced the temp sensors just as a precaution.

Read closer.

First run today
Ambient 73
Underdrive pulley
Doug Shelby air box shield removed
Headers
15-50 Mobil 1
Water Wetter
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Insulation on most everything including cooling lines, PDC, and harness
Coolant Max 225 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 240 after 30 minutes
IAT 95

[Nine Ball]

That was another test I was going to run but didn't have the time. On the other hand my friend with the bone stock GTS only had one tow hook and his temps were almost as high as mine (within 2 degrees). Mark from IPSCO was at the track with me and we had looked at the tow hooks prior to that. While they block a little of the radiator, it is a very little. Given the stock GTS was running hot too I don't think that is the problem. Does Blue TA#1 run hooks up front? Given he has a larger radiator I would think if he was the radiator would make up for them easily but they didn't.




The Gen 5 grille openings are smaller than the Gen 3/4 grille. Every single square inch counts on cars like this. Various performance models even got rid of mesh/screen inserts on grilles. Chevy even hollowed out their bowtie emblem on the Z28 and found gains. I noticed the tow hook blocked a good portion of the grille opening, due to its shape. I wonder if we'd benefit from an aftermarket grille insert that had less horizontal bars across the front?

BTW, that hollow Chevy emblem was worth an extra 3 cubic meters of airflow per minute, and worth 2 degrees on the coolant and engine oil temps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP4Pp5l-kLg

CHEVROLET PRESS RELEASE

Modified Chevrolet Bowtie Makes Z/28 Even Cooler
Traditional badge modified in the name of all-out track performance.

DETROIT – In developing the 2014 Camaro Z/28, the team scrutinized every component looking for ways to improve track performance, lap after lap. Even the iconic Chevrolet bowtie faced audit.

During aerodynamics testing, Powertrain Cooling Development engineer Richard Quinn noticed that the bowtie on the Z/28's grill was displacing air away from the radiator, which can impact engine cooling – an important aspect for all vehicles, especially track-oriented cars.

Removing the bowtie altogether did not seem to be an appropriate solution. Instead, Quinn took a cut-off wheel to the gold fill of the bowtie, leaving the silver outline intact. He installed the prototype on the grill and retested to see the results.

"There are engineers in our team that race as a hobby," said Quinn, "and we used that racer's mindset to look for ways small or large to get better performance out of the Z/28. Even the smallest details on the Z/28 were weighed for cooling benefit, and this is one that stuck."

The "Flowtie," as the engineers now affectionately refer to it, is just the chrome outline of the traditional bowtie, with the center removed. This simple solution alone was enough to allow three additional cubic meters of air into the engine per minute. Engineers found the Flowtie dropped the temperatures of engine coolant and engine oil by 2°F (1.2°C) during extended track sessions. That seemingly small improvement was enough to justify making the Flowtie standard on every new Z/28.

[FLATOUT]

I was talking about Blue TA 1's car.


Read closer.

First run today
Ambient 73
Underdrive pulley
Doug Shelby air box shield removed
Headers
15-50 Mobil 1
Water Wetter
95 Octane
Arrow PCM
2 tow hooks
Insulation on most everything including cooling lines, PDC, and harness
Coolant Max 225 after 30 minutes
Oil Max 240 after 30 minutes
IAT 95

[Nine Ball]

I was talking about Blue TA 1's car.

So am I. Read post #88

[FLATOUT]

So am I. Read post #88

He cut and pasted ViperGeorges track day info from Colorado in that post, that's not his cars data. The two front tow hook car is George's at altitude. Karl's COTA car was in my shop a couple weeks ago getting the larger radiator put in. Karl's car has a single tow hook up front.

[BLUETA#1]

Thats the fastest way to drive these cars, no need to be on the limiter driving like a maniac. You will just get bit.

I agree…I shift at 6000 or lower.

[Nine Ball]

He cut and pasted ViperGeorges track day info from Colorado in that post, that's not his cars data. The two front tow hook car is George's at altitude. Karl's COTA car was in my shop a couple weeks ago getting the larger radiator put in. Karl's car has a single tow hook up front.

This shit is confusing. All you comp blue guys ruin the thread. :)

[roadrunner]

The warn starts at 240F, but the real warn begins at 270F - The audible alarm begins at that point...
The A/C will cut out above 240F to stop the A/C from adding heat to cooling system prior to the radiator. The red alert is to make it clear that things are changing to support higher temp operation. It is not a MIL lamp or DTC.

[Simms]

I seem to remember reading how SRT had to eliminate the honeycomb from the grill of the Gen V prototype on the production version because it limited airflow too much. On the production car, the honeycomb is only in the center "V" of the grill. This supports how crucial airflow is on the front of this car.

[Nine Ball]

I seem to remember reading how SRT had to eliminate the honeycomb from the grill of the Gen V prototype on the production version because it limited airflow too much. On the production car, the honeycomb is only in the center "V" of the grill. This supports how crucial airflow is on the front of this car.

Correct. I keep mentioning this, but nobody wants to listen. :)

[ViperGeorge]

Correct. I keep mentioning this, but nobody wants to listen. :)

So if we cut out the honeycomb in the V that should add some airflow. It won't be a "Flowtie" it will be "FlowVie".

[darbgnik]

Might be talking out of my ass here, but would it be possible to remove the whole black plastic grille section, run the car, and see if there is any improvement before taking the sawzall to it?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

So if we cut out the honeycomb in the V that should add some airflow. It won't be a "Flowtie" it will be "FlowVie".

FlowVee?

13427

Anyway, exploring the airflow through the front opening I think is a good direction.

[ViperSmith]

Correct. I keep mentioning this, but nobody wants to listen. :)

To be fair, if that is the suggestion why not remove the entire grill from the car and see if that helps? the cross sections take up a lot of space as well.

[FLATOUT]

The warn starts at 240F, but the real warn begins at 270F - The audible alarm begins at that point...
The A/C will cut out above 240F to stop the A/C from adding heat to cooling system prior to the radiator. The red alert is to make it clear that things are changing to support higher temp operation. It is not a MIL lamp or DTC.

I hope everyone reads this that is concerned about elevated temps. Your 240 red light indicator is NOT an indicator that the car is overheating but that things are changing to support the higher temps.

[Darius]

The Gen 5 grille openings are smaller than the Gen 3/4 grille. Every single square inch counts on cars like this. Various performance models even got rid of mesh/screen inserts on grilles. Chevy even hollowed out their bowtie emblem on the Z28 and found gains. I noticed the tow hook blocked a good portion of the grille opening, due to its shape. I wonder if we'd benefit from an aftermarket grille insert that had less horizontal bars across the front?

BTW, that hollow Chevy emblem was worth an extra 3 cubic meters of airflow per minute, and worth 2 degrees on the coolant and engine oil temps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP4Pp5l-kLg

CHEVROLET PRESS RELEASE

Modified Chevrolet Bowtie Makes Z/28 Even Cooler
Traditional badge modified in the name of all-out track performance.

DETROIT – In developing the 2014 Camaro Z/28, the team scrutinized every component looking for ways to improve track performance, lap after lap. Even the iconic Chevrolet bowtie faced audit.

During aerodynamics testing, Powertrain Cooling Development engineer Richard Quinn noticed that the bowtie on the Z/28's grill was displacing air away from the radiator, which can impact engine cooling – an important aspect for all vehicles, especially track-oriented cars.

Removing the bowtie altogether did not seem to be an appropriate solution. Instead, Quinn took a cut-off wheel to the gold fill of the bowtie, leaving the silver outline intact. He installed the prototype on the grill and retested to see the results.

"There are engineers in our team that race as a hobby," said Quinn, "and we used that racer's mindset to look for ways small or large to get better performance out of the Z/28. Even the smallest details on the Z/28 were weighed for cooling benefit, and this is one that stuck."

The "Flowtie," as the engineers now affectionately refer to it, is just the chrome outline of the traditional bowtie, with the center removed. This simple solution alone was enough to allow three additional cubic meters of air into the engine per minute. Engineers found the Flowtie dropped the temperatures of engine coolant and engine oil by 2°F (1.2°C) during extended track sessions. That seemingly small improvement was enough to justify making the Flowtie standard on every new Z/28.

I tracked my z28 yesterday in 80 deg temps, coolant was a little over 200 but the oil temp was 290. I was running very hard. Definitely needs a bigger oil cooler

[ViperGeorge]

I hope everyone reads this that is concerned about elevated temps. Your 240 red light indicator is NOT an indicator that the car is overheating but that things are changing to support the higher temps.

Andy, True enough but the PCM is still pulling timing and adding fuel at those temps.

[FLATOUT]

Andy, True enough but the PCM is still pulling timing and adding fuel at those temps.

Your PCM pulls timing any time it sees an IAT over 76 degrees, which happens everyday driving to the grocery store here in Texas. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the car or that it's overheating.

[Bugman Jeff]

I would suspect that the 240 idiot light is there for...idiots. Most non-race drivers don't pay much attention to gauges in general. If you're on the street and the 240 light comes on it's telling you that something is about to go seriously wrong. The car isn't programmed to know if you're sitting in traffic not paying attention while you're overheating or running hard on a race track watching the temp gauge like a hawk, so the light is programmed for the much more common street driving warning light situation. This is just speculation on my part, but it would make sense.

[ACR Steve]

I think we are all getting carried away . Remember this is NOT a race car its a street car that runs amazing on the street and is really fast during DE's

There has to be give and take. If you are a very fast driver of course the car will make more heat. DE sessions are mostly 20 min of track time .If the car heats up towards your last laps just slow down and/or try turning on the heater. If you spent the session in lap traffic try to get out of the draft and get clean air.

If you want a production street car to be a race car that can run all day well then gut the car ,modify the airflow, improve heat soak issues or better yet buy a race car with a proper cage.

I will track my ACR Extreme on occasions and I expect it to be fast but I can tell you it will have a hard time beating the times of my real race car that only has 350 hp to rear wheels. (996 Cup Car) especially on a consistent basis. But that whats to be expected its a STREET CAR

[ViperGeorge]

Your PCM pulls timing any time it sees an IAT over 76 degrees, which happens everyday driving to the grocery store here in Texas. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the car or that it's overheating.

There are other tables besides the IAT tables. One is for coolant temps and I believe one is for oil temps. Any one of the three can and will pull timing. Tables were posted in another thread.

[ViperGeorge]

From the Track Overheating Thread. Thanks Steve M. Sor

View Post
And to answer this portion of your question...

The amount of timing that gets pulled is actually controlled by two tables...there's the ECT spark table shown above, but there's a multiplier associated with it that determines how much of the value in the first table actually gets applied for a given engine RPM and amount of airflow. Both can be seen here:

13430

So using the example you gave of an ECT value of 220°F, you look at the first table and see that it wants to pull 4° of timing, but that's not how much actually gets pulled. You have to look at the multiplier table...the x-axis is airmass (grams per cylinder), the y-axis is RPM. To make a long story short, anything greater than 0.60 grams/cylinder of airmass I'd consider to be wide open throttle for these cars (that's based on the tons of data I've logged). So looking at the multiplier, you'd see that it would multiply the first table by 0.55, or take 55% of the value being asked for in the ECT table and apply it to the timing calculation. In this case, 4° x 0.55 = 2.2°, so the PCM would pull 2.2° of timing under WOT. At idle and low airflow conditions, however, you can see that the multiplier is 0, so it wouldn't pull timing even if the ECT was sky-high.

As another example, let's say you were seeing ECTs around 250°. The ECT timing modifier table would ask 7° to be pulled...when you add in the multiplier table, you'd get:

Under part throttle, idle, or any low airflow condition: 0° pulled (7° x 0 = 0)
WOT: 3.85° pulled (7° x 0.55 = 3.85°)

So you'd be seeing about 4° of timing pulled from your WOT spark advance values under WOT conditions with an ECT of 250°F.

How much power would any of that equate to? I'm not sure to be honest. You'd need to spend some time on an engine or chassis dyno to find out.

I'm sorry if this makes your head hurt, because it has certainly made mine hurt while trying to figure it out. I've been logging lots of data over this summer, and I've gained a lot of insight into what does what with this PCM. I'm still far from fully understanding everything that goes on behind the scenes, but I'm way closer than I was.

[Rapidrezults]

Well one thing is for sure, Ralph removed the plastic hood vents on his new ACR Extreme. I'm sure he didn't do it for looks.


http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm163/rapidrezults/ralphACR_zpsuggg62fi.png

[FLATOUT]

Doesn't make my head hurt at all George these are all things we have known for quite sometime. I used to run HP Tuners on my TA and have also spent time with Dick watching him tune my own car with his factory software. New to you yes but not new to everyone here. You want to know how much 4 degrees is worth on the dyno, maybe 10rwhp, not much at all definitely not something you would notice for the most part which is why I can't wrap my head around why you have spent so much time researching an overheating problem when your car has yet to over heat. Again elevated temps yes, overheating no.



From the Track Overheating Thread. Thanks Steve M. Sor

View Post
And to answer this portion of your question...

The amount of timing that gets pulled is actually controlled by two tables...there's the ECT spark table shown above, but there's a multiplier associated with it that determines how much of the value in the first table actually gets applied for a given engine RPM and amount of airflow. Both can be seen here:

13430

So using the example you gave of an ECT value of 220°F, you look at the first table and see that it wants to pull 4° of timing, but that's not how much actually gets pulled. You have to look at the multiplier table...the x-axis is airmass (grams per cylinder), the y-axis is RPM. To make a long story short, anything greater than 0.60 grams/cylinder of airmass I'd consider to be wide open throttle for these cars (that's based on the tons of data I've logged). So looking at the multiplier, you'd see that it would multiply the first table by 0.55, or take 55% of the value being asked for in the ECT table and apply it to the timing calculation. In this case, 4° x 0.55 = 2.2°, so the PCM would pull 2.2° of timing under WOT. At idle and low airflow conditions, however, you can see that the multiplier is 0, so it wouldn't pull timing even if the ECT was sky-high.

As another example, let's say you were seeing ECTs around 250°. The ECT timing modifier table would ask 7° to be pulled...when you add in the multiplier table, you'd get:

Under part throttle, idle, or any low airflow condition: 0° pulled (7° x 0 = 0)
WOT: 3.85° pulled (7° x 0.55 = 3.85°)

So you'd be seeing about 4° of timing pulled from your WOT spark advance values under WOT conditions with an ECT of 250°F.

How much power would any of that equate to? I'm not sure to be honest. You'd need to spend some time on an engine or chassis dyno to find out.

I'm sorry if this makes your head hurt, because it has certainly made mine hurt while trying to figure it out. I've been logging lots of data over this summer, and I've gained a lot of insight into what does what with this PCM. I'm still far from fully understanding everything that goes on behind the scenes, but I'm way closer than I was.

[FrgMstr]

Well one thing is for sure, Ralph removed the plastic hood vents on his new ACR Extreme. I'm sure he didn't do it for looks.

I would suggest he did it to create more downforce.

[Stealth]

You want to know how much 4 degrees is worth on the dyno, maybe 10rwhp, not much at all definitely not something you would notice for the most part which is why I can't wrap my head around why you have spent so much time researching an overheating problem when your car has yet to over heat. Again elevated temps yes, overheating no.

+1 Our cars will never have the same temps running strong for 20 minutes on a track as they have loafing on a cruise on a county road. Further, I do not think any "idiot light" came on or blinked on my dash when Oil briefly hit 240-245F during a recent HPDE. Of course, perhaps I am just too much of an idiot to have noticed it even though I constantly noted the temps. What I did notice is that on the street and in the few HPDEs I have run my Gen IV and Gen V Vipers, they have always performed like Stallions! Go SRT!

NOTE: I am all for any constructive improvements which can be made, so please do not take this the wrong way.

[7TH_SIGN]

Not sure if this helps but I took my car out last night, went on a 30 mile cruise. Didn't get on the car hard as I'm still in the break in period but I kept an eye on the gauges. Max oil temps I saw was between 185-195 and max coolant temps were 175-185.

Stock 2015 SRT

[ViperGeorge]

Doesn't make my head hurt at all George these are all things we have known for quite sometime. I used to run HP Tuners on my TA and have also spent time with Dick watching him tune my own car with his factory software. New to you yes but not new to everyone here. You want to know how much 4 degrees is worth on the dyno, maybe 10rwhp, not much at all definitely not something you would notice for the most part which is why I can't wrap my head around why you have spent so much time researching an overheating problem when your car has yet to over heat. Again elevated temps yes, overheating no.

Andy, I did not start any of the threads on track heating issues. However, I agree with BlueTA#1 that these cars are running too hot especially as compared to Gen 4s. Most people that have tracked cars would be concerned about oil hitting 265 and coolant hitting 240+ in just 15 minutes or in BlueTA#1's case a few laps. That is simply not right in a car that is designed to be driven hard on the track. How hot would they get if we ran hard for 30 minutes or 45 or an hour? I've run tests and posted results. Yes, removing the tow hooks may be another test I need to run, but damn my Gen 4 had two tow hooks, Mopar controller, and headers and it NEVER, EVER got above 210.

[ViperGeorge]

Doesn't make my head hurt at all George these are all things we have known for quite sometime. I used to run HP Tuners on my TA and have also spent time with Dick watching him tune my own car with his factory software. New to you yes but not new to everyone here. You want to know how much 4 degrees is worth on the dyno, maybe 10rwhp, not much at all definitely not something you would notice for the most part which is why I can't wrap my head around why you have spent so much time researching an overheating problem when your car has yet to over heat. Again elevated temps yes, overheating no.

Andy, A couple of other points. I did not post the tables or the text you read. It was originally posted by Steve M. I only copied it here to illustrate that the PCM is in fact pulling timing based on temps. Maybe 4 degrees isn't a lot but it is probably also adding fuel in an attempt to cool things down. Now you would likely agree that cooler is better on the track (ok within limits - the oil does need some heat to work properly). I believe the purpose of BlueTA#1 starting these threads is to get some ideas on how to make the car run cooler. Cooler equals more power and fewer problems. This is a very good reason to post on this forum.

The thread I did start had to do with heat from the headers. With the engine compartment of a Gen 5 being so tight the heat from the headers is effecting a lot of components. This heat may also contribute to coolant temps in my car but not in BlueTA#1's car as he does not have headers. I've already melted the EVAP tube and the main harness, repairs were expensive as the warranty would not cover damage due to the headers. We need an effective heat shield for the headers. Hopefully Mark will come up with something soon. As it is I have everything under my hood insulated. Looks like a science experiment but still the temps in mid 80s ambient hit 240.

Bottom line is that this is my 7th Viper and I currently have three. Not bragging I'm just pointing out that this is not my first rodeo. I want to figure this out so I'm not always looking at a flashing idiot light and wondering when the temps will rise above 250 or more. The TA is the only one that has had temps rise above 210 on the track (ok in fairness I have not tracked my 14 GTS). The ones I've tracked include my old 98 RT/10, my 03 SRT, my supercharged 06, and my 09 ACR. None of these ever got close to being warm on the track.

[Nemesis]

I'm not going along with the OP's disposition towards the car, I love my Vipers. I have a 2013 GTS and a 2014 TA. I have experienced over heating issues in both, pre mod and post mod. I have melted 02 wires, front side and back side, I've melted starter wire plugs, I've melted the main bus line, I've melted abs lines (let me town you how fun that was in the midst of a turn when it failed and the car locked up) I've blown one engine (2013). These cars generate a tremendous amount of heat under stress. If you mod them they generate even more heat. I now have both current cars heat wrapped to the hilt. It has been trial and error. It is one thing to 'track' the cars it is another to run them at full hilt. Viper built these to be a track car, not a race car on a track day. If your willing to work through the issues it is solvable. I would recommend taking the aftermarket bits off i.e. PCM and headers as I hear the heat the heat they are generating is significantly more than stock. What is of interest is that I have been following Ralph's heat wrapping solutions and most notable I noticed on his recent Instagram post with his new ACR that he actually pulled the 6 center vents out of the hood along with the tire vents... Granted the last two would only impact tire temps but I found it very interesting.. I am going to try that with my TA.

[FLATOUT]

You absolutely have to wrap everything and we do on all of our customer builds. Anything that is anywhere near the primaries gets wrapped, along with O2 wiring. It's easy to do. Ralph and I both shield much of the wiring with Lavamatt, which works very well.

[FLATOUT]

You say you have experienced overheating but didn't mention any coolant or oil temps. Melting wires is an issue separate of the elevated track temps, take the proper precautions and you're good to go.


I'm not going along with the OP's disposition towards the car, I love my Vipers. I have a 2013 GTS and a 2014 TA. I have experienced over heating issues in both, pre mod and post mod. I have melted 02 wires, front side and back side, I've melted starter wire plugs, I've melted the main bus line, I've melted abs lines (let me town you how fun that was in the midst of a turn when it failed and the car locked up) I've blown one engine (2013). These cars generate a tremendous amount of heat under stress. If you mod them they generate even more heat. I now have both current cars heat wrapped to the hilt. It has been trial and error. It is one thing to 'track' the cars it is another to run them at full hilt. Viper built these to be a track car, not a race car on a track day. If your willing to work through the issues it is solvable. I would recommend taking the aftermarket bits off i.e. PCM and headers as I hear the heat the heat they are generating is significantly more than stock. What is of interest is that I have been following Ralph's heat wrapping solutions and most notable I noticed on his recent Instagram post with his new ACR that he actually pulled the 6 center vents out of the hood along with the tire vents... Granted the last two would only impact tire temps but I found it very interesting.. I am going to try that with my TA.

[7TH_SIGN]

My personal opinion is this. Bottom line if you are going to run these cars hard, I don't mean a couple street pulls, I mean actual hard track use, you should really look in to upgrading the cooling system. Aftermarket oil cooler, larger upgraded radiator, heat wrap, and so on... I don't think there are many if any manufactured stock cars in this group that could handle heavy track use without having some heating issues.

Not blaming the owner or manufacture for the issue.

[VENOM V]

It's like I'm reading about some other model of car, these stories are foreign to me. How can it be that for two years I've been tracking my Viper and this month is the first time I've heard of this "overheating" issue? I tracked at Laguna Seca recently with 17 Vipers. No one overheated except for the C7 Z06, which went into limp mode and puked all of the coolant out right next to me in the paddock. He hit 267 F water and 309 F oil. Buttonwillow with 78 Vipers, no overheating issues on a single car. 2 C7 Z06s in limp mode at Buttonwillow in cool weather. I've tracked with other Vipers in 107 F and no one overheated. Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, Sears Point, Spring Mountain. Never had an issue other than touching 240 F coolant at Thunderhill in 106 F ambient, so I backed off for a lap and it immediately cooled. Then went hard for another 5 or 10 minutes and never touched 240 F water again. I did have an 02 sensor go that day, replaced under warranty the next week. Easy peasy. The only issue I've ever had with the Viper was that 02 sensor, no melted wires, no other issues at all. I just change the oil and brake pads, and an occasional alignment. And drive the wheels off of it, over 14,000 miles many of which are on the track.

This all seems blown out of proportion, only a couple of folks have had issues. As Darius said, Camaros run hot as his Z/28 hit 290 F oil (my modded Camaro required 2 oil coolers and custom shrouding to get the oil temps reasonable), C7 Vettes run hot. But I haven't seen it with Vipers.

And I know that this has been said, but to remind folks that Dick Winkles stated to keep the coolant temp below 255 F and oil below 300 F. I am nowhere near those values and I haven't read anyone else approaching them either.

[VENOM V]

My personal opinion is this. Bottom line if you are going to run these cars hard, I don't mean a couple street pulls, I mean actual hard track use, you should really look in to upgrading the cooling system. Aftermarket oil cooler, larger upgraded radiator, heat wrap, and so on... I don't think there are many if any manufactured stock cars in this group that could handle heavy track use without having some heating issues.

Not blaming the owner or manufacture for the issue.

Based on what, two or three folks that have had issues? With Hoosiers I have run a lap at Buttonwillow that is 3 seconds faster than the production car record, but no cooling issues. I only mention this because of this notion that only fast drivers have this issue. There are plenty of guys in NorCal that turn decent lap times but have never had a cooling issue.

I'm not worried in the slightest. Sounds like there are corner cases at some tracks, but this is not a widespread issue. I wouldn't waste my money on cooling system upgrades unless you are one of the few guys that have experienced first-hand over temp issues at your specific track.

[7TH_SIGN]

Based on what, two or three folks that have had issues? With Hoosiers I have run a lap at Buttonwillow that is 3 seconds faster than the production car record, but no cooling issues. I only mention this because of this notion that only fast drivers have this issue. There are plenty of guys in NorCal that turn decent lap times but have never had a cooling issue.

I'm not worried in the slightest. Sounds like there are corner cases at some tracks, but this is not a widespread issue. I wouldn't waste my money on cooling system upgrades unless you are one of the few guys that have experienced first-hand over temp issues at your specific track.

I think there is a lot that goes in to how and why a car is running the way it is, part modifications or lack of, tune, weather conditions, the track itself and the car itself. We can sit here and compare your car to his or others but unless we have them on the same track at the same time, its hard to really diagnosis it. So many variables. I personally don't do this type of racing however if I did and I was running the car as hard as Le Mans (exaggerating), I'd definitely looks in to making sure the cooling system is as proficient and reliable as possible.

[Bruce H.]

With Hoosiers I have run a lap at Buttonwillow that is 3 seconds faster than the production car record, but no cooling issues.

Todd, I wonder if you would have issues if you were running at that pace for many laps...or perhaps you already do.

[98intrigue]

I'm all for spreading factual information, understanding an issue, and coming up with a resolution. From what I've read here, the majority of Viper owners who track their cars do not have overheating issues. If it's a few isolated cases, it is not a widespread issue. So let's not blow this out of proportion and make this another pissing match between us and the Vette. These cars are hand built after all, so human error can occur during the production process.

[lmcgrew79]

Let me get this straight, the blinking light at 240 water temps is ok? Every time ive seen it come on i back it off for a few turns. What happens at 245 or 250? Im just wondering if the car will go into the limp mode or what happens at certain temps?

[Rapidrezults]

It's like I'm reading about some other model of car, these stories are foreign to me. How can it be that for two years I've been tracking my Viper and this month is the first time I've heard of this "overheating" issue? I tracked at Laguna Seca recently with 17 Vipers. No one overheated except for the C7 Z06, which went into limp mode and puked all of the coolant out right next to me in the paddock. He hit 267 F water and 309 F oil. Buttonwillow with 78 Vipers, no overheating issues on a single car. 2 C7 Z06s in limp mode at Buttonwillow in cool weather. I've tracked with other Vipers in 107 F and no one overheated. Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, Sears Point, Spring Mountain. Never had an issue other than touching 240 F coolant at Thunderhill in 106 F ambient, so I backed off for a lap and it immediately cooled. Then went hard for another 5 or 10 minutes and never touched 240 F water again. I did have an 02 sensor go that day, replaced under warranty the next week. Easy peasy. The only issue I've ever had with the Viper was that 02 sensor, no melted wires, no other issues at all. I just change the oil and brake pads, and an occasional alignment. And drive the wheels off of it, over 14,000 miles many of which are on the track.

This all seems blown out of proportion, only a couple of folks have had issues. As Darius said, Camaros run hot as his Z/28 hit 290 F oil (my modded Camaro required 2 oil coolers and custom shrouding to get the oil temps reasonable), C7 Vettes run hot. But I haven't seen it with Vipers.

And I know that this has been said, but to remind folks that Dick Winkles stated to keep the coolant temp below 255 F and oil below 300 F. I am nowhere near those values and I haven't read anyone else approaching them either.

This reminded me of the Buttonwillow event where Tommy Kendall was giving rides in the orange TA. It seemed like that car was running in every run group with very little rest. It seemed they were running that car all day non-stop. I did not get a ride but from what I was told he was pushing pretty hard. I don't recall them ever talking about overheating issues with it, although I do remember it went into limp mode at some point, not sure why. With that said, it was very cool those days.

[ViperGeorge]

There are a few of us that are seeing temps that we think are too high, maybe not as high as Dick Winkles says are too high but we think our cars should not be running this hot. Speaking for myself this is not the first Viper I have tracked and none of the others got anywhere near as warm. 240 plus on coolant and 260 plus on oil is not what we were expecting given experience with older Vipers on the same tracks. BlueTA#1 started these threads to see if others were seeing the same thing and to seek input on how the temps might be lowered. These are fair questions.

If you are not seeing temps that you feel are too warm then that is great. There are however others that are. This includes modified cars and bone stock cars. When I was last at the track with my TA (headers and Arrow controller) a friend was also there with his bone stock 14 GTS. He was seeing temps approaching 240 in about 15 minutes as well. Is it specific cars that do this? Is it the way some drivers are driving? I don't know but I would like to find out. I drive High Plains Raceway the same in my TA that I did in my 09 ACR (also with headers and Mopar controller) and the two cars behave differently with regards to temps.

I would prefer to see my TA running temps closer to the 200-210 my old ACR ran. Hopefully we can figure out some way of making that a reality.

[ViperSmith]

George, would your elevation have something to do with temps even in a stock car?

[Simms]

Maybe it's just an issue that the airflow/design of the Gen V front is just not as sufficient as the previous Gens and elevated temps could happen to some when pushed hard? Higher than we are used to, but not in the danger zone.

[lmcgrew79]

Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/lmcgrew79/ta%20temps_zpscvaziehz.jpg

[ironpeddler]

This thread is lame. I also want to know the limits of the cooling system even if my abilities can not get me there, yet. Is this how the Viper community helps out its fellow members when they have a problem?? I have a feeling that you could buy a Porsche, add tires and tune and you would have no problems keeping it cool on the track, so maybe Blue has the right idea, no need to flame him for it. Go buy a vette, viper, gt500, add those same things you did on a Porsche, the car will heatsoak, pull timing, loose power, etc.

SRT's stock cooling system sucks, bottom line. It is only sufficient for STOCK cars. I am sure that Dodge knows that a good amount of people will tune, change tires, the basic crap. What does Viper exchange do to their race car...why dont they come out and tell us? Why don't they put a package together and sell it?? Charge $7k for dynamic suspension, how about $5k-$10k for a cooling system that actually works on the track?? You should be able to change tires and tune on the stock cooling system and be fine. Adding a TT system or blower, probably a different story, going to need to upgrade the cooling system. But basically SRT put the bare minimum cooling system in there, that will only suffice on stock cars. Another American car company cutting corners to try and keep cost down, but people need to realize what they skimped on to keep cost down. Porsche didn't cut corners and that is why their GT3 car is what like $175k? I bet you it wont get "too hot" or "overheat" if you added tires and/or tune. But imagine if Dodge put a legit cooling system in the car, now price increase of what $20-$30k?? So now vipers are $120k-$140k Dodge would sell even less of them. I get why they do what they do, but that doesn't make the cooling system good, it is still a piece of junk. People here be like, nah brah, my cooling system is great, I don't track my car, I have no real world data, I am just a Viper fanboi...that dude Blue, he just doesn't know what he is talking about or it is just "his" car... But it sounds like to me, that BLue is a pretty good/respected driver, probably better than you are. It is ok, don't let your feelings get hurt. It sounds like to me that this affects more than just Blue. It sounds like he represents the viper community well on the track. I would think that the Viper community as a whole would try and help him find a solution so he stays with the Viper instead of jumping to a Porsche.

Well, you car didn't overheat, it just got too hot. LOLLOL. OK, what kind of crap is that. Does it really make it any better that the car didn't "overheat" it just got "too hot". Yeah, maybe because if it overheats it goes into limp mode, but if it is just to hot then you just lose power. I guess that could be considered a bonus LOL, to some. But, IMHO it is all the same...a problem that needs to be fixed correctly.

[lmcgrew79]

Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/lmcgrew79/ta%20temps_zpscvaziehz.jpg

Ok i looked at the video and was stuck behind a 991 gt3 that didnt want to point me for most of the lap, as you can see in the throttle position percentage im not on throttle as much as the other laps plus behind a car which is effecting airflow. Could be onto something heading to track this weekend and will see what happens. 13436

[ACR Steve]

Being behind a car effects airflow immensely. It doesn't mean you have to be on a bumper. Draft starts many car lengths back. Draft =bad airflow for the radiator but good for aerodynamics. Us racers are always watching temps when we are in a pack drafting with bad airflow.

[ViperGeorge]

The last time I was at High Plains I was not in traffic much at all. There were only 50 cars registered and they were split in 3 groups. So being in a draft did not effect my temps one way or the other. Altitude may be a factor, I don't know, but BlueTA#1 runs in Texas. Altitude in Texas is no where near as high as Colorado yet he still generates some heat. I still need to pull the tow hooks off to see what impact that has.

[darbgnik]

This thread is lame. I also want to know the limits of the cooling system even if my abilities can not get me there, yet. Is this how the Viper community helps out its fellow members when they have a problem?? I have a feeling that you could buy a Porsche, add tires and tune and you would have no problems keeping it cool on the track, so maybe Blue has the right idea, no need to flame him for it. Go buy a vette, viper, gt500, add those same things you did on a Porsche, the car will heatsoak, pull timing, loose power, etc.

SRT's stock cooling system sucks, bottom line. It is only sufficient for STOCK cars. I am sure that Dodge knows that a good amount of people will tune, change tires, the basic crap. What does Viper exchange do to their race car...why dont they come out and tell us? Why don't they put a package together and sell it?? Charge $7k for dynamic suspension, how about $5k-$10k for a cooling system that actually works on the track?? You should be able to change tires and tune on the stock cooling system and be fine. Adding a TT system or blower, probably a different story, going to need to upgrade the cooling system. But basically SRT put the bare minimum cooling system in there, that will only suffice on stock cars. Another American car company cutting corners to try and keep cost down, but people need to realize what they skimped on to keep cost down. Porsche didn't cut corners and that is why their GT3 car is what like $175k? I bet you it wont get "too hot" or "overheat" if you added tires and/or tune. But imagine if Dodge put a legit cooling system in the car, now price increase of what $20-$30k?? So now vipers are $120k-$140k Dodge would sell even less of them. I get why they do what they do, but that doesn't make the cooling system good, it is still a piece of junk. People here be like, nah brah, my cooling system is great, I don't track my car, I have no real world data, I am just a Viper fanboi...that dude Blue, he just doesn't know what he is talking about or it is just "his" car... But it sounds like to me, that BLue is a pretty good/respected driver, probably better than you are. It is ok, don't let your feelings get hurt. It sounds like to me that this affects more than just Blue. It sounds like he represents the viper community well on the track. I would think that the Viper community as a whole would try and help him find a solution so he stays with the Viper instead of jumping to a Porsche.

Well, you car didn't overheat, it just got too hot. LOLLOL. OK, what kind of crap is that. Does it really make it any better that the car didn't "overheat" it just got "too hot". Yeah, maybe because if it overheats it goes into limp mode, but if it is just to hot then you just lose power. I guess that could be considered a bonus LOL, to some. But, IMHO it is all the same...a problem that needs to be fixed correctly.

OK, I'll bite. I think your input into this thread is just as valuable as all the guys who told him to go ahead and buy a Porsche. Upon what do you base this assumption on? The two threads you mentioned? Do you even own one of these cars, or track it? I do.

I happen to be one of the faster guys at my local track, mostly a 2nd and 3rd gear track, I currently go faster than the largest HDPE operators' owner said was possible with a bone stock car, and mine is bone stock. I personally have had no cooling issues, but I have not dismissed the OP's issue, and hope he finds a resolution, as the next track I take my car to, maybe I will overheat. What is happening to him, sucks for him, but could be good for the community.

If you want to keep this thread constructive, how about keeping your assumptions out of the discussion? Unless of course you have an assumption on how to fix his issue, then by all means, lets hear it.

Making pronouncements on something you have no personal experience with...... Ya, that's constructive.


And I will reiterate, just in case you only skim over the whole paragraph just enough to respond, I believe he has an issue, have made a couple obvious guesses as to correlations and possible solutions. I have also offered my own experience, which wasn't of any benefit. What have you said exactly?

[ironpeddler]

Actually that statement I made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for STOCK cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So I don't think that I made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause I said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in Canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

[ViperSmith]

Actually that statement I made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for STOCK cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So I don't think that I made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause I said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in Canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

There are 2-3 reported stock cars that seem to be running hot in this thread while tracking. This is hardly an epidemic for stock vehicles. Plenty of guys beating their cars to death not having issues running stock.

Majority of reported issues seem to stem from cars that are modified, from PCM to headers. While it sucks for them, it is a bit different than discussing stock cars running hot.

And as FLATOUT has said, the car even at 250* is far from hitting limp mode which is plaguing the Z06s.

Being said, hopefully it is something minor.

[darbgnik]

Actually, my response was to your rant saying this thread was lame. If you reread my post, never did I say there wasn't an issue, quite the opposite.

What I did call into question was how constructive your post was. Read what you wrote. You were calling out members dismissing the problem, and fanboys. You pointed out how constructive that group was, I was doing the same about your post. And yes, while pointing out how constructive your post was, I also pointed out your personal experience on the subject........ To which you seem to take exception to.

[Steve M]

Actually that statement I made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for STOCK cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So I don't think that I made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause I said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in Canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

I don't think it is a cooling system issue though based on what I've seen in this thread. Look at all of the things that have been addressed as potential fixes:

1. Underdrive pulley to reduce potential water pump cavitation issues - did not help
2. Hard pipes to replace radiator hoses in case they were collapsing under high RPM operation (known issue with some Gen 4 cars) - did not help
3. Replaced radiator with a larger, triple pass unit - did not help

To me, that points to an airflow issue - people have run modded Gen 4 Vipers without issue on the stock cooling system, and they've been just fine. The Gen 5 cooling system is a carry-over from the Gen 4 from the looks of it, minus some revisions to the cooling passages in the block/heads that should only help cooling of those systems. The only major difference is the opening in the nose of each...I think it'd be interesting if someone took some measurements to see just how much area the Gen 4 has vs. the Gen 5 to get airflow to the radiator.

I could also be underestimating the affect of the additional 45HP the Gen 5 has over the Gen 4 stock, but I'm just not convinced it is the primary cause of this particular issue.

[XSnake]

Blue, do you have any vids or data of you lapping?

[ViperGeorge]

I don't think it is a cooling system issue though based on what I've seen in this thread. Look at all of the things that have been addressed as potential fixes:

1. Underdrive pulley to reduce potential water pump cavitation issues - did not help
2. Hard pipes to replace radiator hoses in case they were collapsing under high RPM operation (known issue with some Gen 4 cars) - did not help
3. Replaced radiator with a larger, triple pass unit - did not help

To me, that points to an airflow issue - people have run modded Gen 4 Vipers without issue on the stock cooling system, and they've been just fine. The Gen 5 cooling system is a carry-over from the Gen 4 from the looks of it, minus some revisions to the cooling passages in the block/heads that should only help cooling of those systems. The only major difference is the opening in the nose of each...I think it'd be interesting if someone took some measurements to see just how much area the Gen 4 has vs. the Gen 5 to get airflow to the radiator.

I could also be underestimating the affect of the additional 45HP the Gen 5 has over the Gen 4 stock, but I'm just not convinced it is the primary cause of this particular issue.

I tend to mostly agree with you the issues are likely the result of airflow AND the tightness of the Gen 5 engine compartment. Things just seem more cramped in there so I suspect airflow around the engine is reduced some. There are differences in hood design and grille design between the Gen 4 and 5, could these contribute? The GTS and SRT hoods on a Gen 5 don't seem to make a difference as both types seem to reach 240 when driven hard. In terms of the additional HP, my old ACR was doing close to 700 HP at the crank yet it ran cool.

Now it is possible that altitude may be effecting me at High Plains here in Colorado but on the other hand higher altitudes reduce power and this should reduce heat and my ACR had no problems at the same track.

I am surprised by BlueTA#1's results with the larger radiator. I thought for sure this would make up for airflow issues and it's increased capacity should have provided more heat handling capacity. I was ready to pull the trigger on that mod but now I don't know what to do.

Again, not to be redundant, but while 240-250 coolant won't cause a limp mode I think everyone would agree that 200-210 would be better and provide for more of a cushion.

[VENOM V]

actually that statement i made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for stock cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So i don't think that i made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause i said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

lol, seriously?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Like Mjorgensen NineBall and multiple others have suggested it is time to open up the front by reducing restrictions. Tow hooks are easy, but can the black portion of the grille be removed without being destroyed as a test or is it a structural part of the car? Looks like it only costs ~$100 (P/N 68141085AB) so buying one to cut up wouldn't be the end of the world. If that works it would be up to the user to modify his / hers or the aftermarket to come up with something that bolts in, or just have a cutout one for the track if it isn't too painful to install.

[VENOM V]

Todd, I wonder if you would have issues if you were running at that pace for many laps...or perhaps you already do.

Hi Bruce,

I typically run 4 to 5 25-minute sessions per track day. Once in a while I'll do double duty. My friend Mike and I ran my Viper at Laguna Seca in two different adjacent run groups, so that day 10 25-minute sessions, almost equivilent to 5 50-minute sessions with a five minute break in the middle. And my friend is a former Porsche Cup racer, so both of us drove hard the entire time.

Steve makes a good point about differences in airflow between generations. The Gen V engineers tuned the design based on their testing at high ambient temps. Perhaps this generation runs warmer than previous, but after talking with Erich Heuschele about the subject, I have zero concerns with running up to 245 F coolant, which is nowhere near the 255 F that Dick Winkles says is the safe limit. Again, highest I've seen is 240 F, not worried about that in the slightest.

[ViperGeorge]

Like Mjorgensen NineBall and multiple others have suggested it is time to open up the front by reducing restrictions. Tow hooks are easy, but can the black portion of the grille be removed without being destroyed as a test or is it a structural part of the car? Looks like it only costs ~$100 (P/N 68141085AB) so buying one to cut up wouldn't be the end of the world. If that works it would be up to the user to modify his / hers or the aftermarket to come up with something that bolts in, or just have a cutout one for the track if it isn't too painful to install.

I actually have a spare grille already. I bought an extra for my 14 GTS so I could paint it white to match the car. Took out the original. While I could certainly hack it up I doubt it would look very nice. My TA is not a dedicated track car I do drive it to VOA events now and again so I wouldn't want it looking terrible. Changing it does require removal of the front bumper cover which while maybe not hard is a pain. I am thinking about tow hook removal (although BlueTA#1 and my friend only have one where I have two and they were both seeing 240). I am also thinking about hacking out the honeycomb from the center of the V. That probably would look ok and not be too hard to do with the grille installed.

[ViperGeorge]

Hi Bruce,

I typically run 4 to 5 25-minute sessions per track day. Once in a while I'll do double duty. My friend Mike and I ran my Viper at Laguna Seca in two different adjacent run groups, so that day 10 25-minute sessions, almost equivilent to 5 50-minute sessions with a five minute break in the middle. And my friend is a former Porsche Cup racer, so both of us drove hard the entire time.

Steve makes a good point about differences in airflow between generations. The Gen V engineers tuned the design based on their testing at high ambient temps. Perhaps this generation runs warmer than previous, but after talking with Erich Heuschele about the subject, I have zero concerns with running up to 245 F coolant, which is nowhere near the 255 F that Dick Winkles says is the safe limit. Again, highest I've seen is 240 F, not worried about that in the slightest.

245 is only 10 degrees from 255, that seems pretty close to me as it is only an additional 4% increase. I think if I ran the car hard in a double stint I might very well reach that. As it is when the car gets over 240 I back it off. Maybe next time I will keep pushing to see how close to 255 it does get. On the other hand what happens at 255? Does the engine go boom or does it got into to limp mode? Either would be bad if in traffic at speed on the track.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I actually have a spare grille already. I bought an extra for my 14 GTS so I could paint it white to match the car. Took out the original. While I could certainly hack it up I doubt it would look very nice. My TA is not a dedicated track car I do drive it to VOA events now and again so I wouldn't want it looking terrible. Changing it does require removal of the front bumper cover which while maybe not hard is a pain. I am thinking about tow hook removal (although BlueTA#1 and my friend only have one where I have two and they were both seeing 240). I am also thinking about hacking out the honeycomb from the center of the V. That probably would look ok and not be too hard to do with the grille installed.

Regarding the tow hooks it is hard to say what they do to the aero, a small change could be significant but maybe not. When you remove them I'd remove the entire thing.

Same with the grille. What's behind the grille? Do you think removing it or cutting out the V would increase airflow? At least the tow hooks are an easy change, and if you cut out the grille you could tape up the V session to session to see if there's a difference.

Aero is funny and can either be numb to changes or super sensitive to a seemingly minor change. In IndyCar radiator blockers are internal to the sidepods and are adjusted all the time to get the ideal temperatures, sometimes only by fractions of an inch to change 10s of degrees. 70 degrees C water (or as cool as possible) and 110-115 degrees C oil temp are ideal for power on those engines but sometimes they run water hotter to reduce drag induced by extra cooling.

[ViperDC]

lol, seriously?

Pretty funny this guy is calling people out when all he contributed was a bad troll job.

[ACR Steve]

Remember the radiator relies on air movement through its grills to cool . If to much positive air is building up behind the radiator it could be impeding cooling . The needs a way to keep flowing once its past the radiator. We work with this a lot on our race cars .

[ViperGeorge]

Regarding the tow hooks it is hard to say what they do to the aero, a small change could be significant but maybe not. When you remove them I'd remove the entire thing.

Same with the grille. What's behind the grille? Do you think removing it or cutting out the V would increase airflow? At least the tow hooks are an easy change, and if you cut out the grille you could tape up the V session to session to see if there's a difference.

Aero is funny and can either be numb to changes or super sensitive to a seemingly minor change. In IndyCar radiator blockers are internal to the sidepods and are adjusted all the time to get the ideal temperatures, sometimes only by fractions of an inch to change 10s of degrees. 70 degrees C water (or as cool as possible) and 110-115 degrees C oil temp are ideal for power on those engines but sometimes they run water hotter to reduce drag induced by extra cooling.

I believe there are some metal braces behind the grille that would look unsightly if exposed. I will have to check to be sure. I wish someone would make a better looking grille that also improves airflow. The OEM grille is $140 for a reason, it looks and feels cheap.

[XSnake]

Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/lmcgrew79/ta%20temps_zpscvaziehz.jpg

I'm not familiar with that track but I would be willing to bet that you could take some of those 2nd gears turns in 3rd and actually be faster. Especially with having 3.55's in the Gen V's. There are very few turns that you need to be in 2nd gear going through in a Viper with the amount of HP and TQ these cars produce. Going through in a higher gear will also get you to work on entry and mid corner speed and keep you from trying to make up for that time by trying to hammer it out of the corner. Sure, it feels cool but it's not necessarily the fastest way around the track and it's definitely not the easiest on your car. Smoother is faster.

[VENOM V]

245 is only 10 degrees from 255, that seems pretty close to me as it is only an additional 4% increase. I think if I ran the car hard in a double stint I might very well reach that. As it is when the car gets over 240 I back it off. Maybe next time I will keep pushing to see how close to 255 it does get. On the other hand what happens at 255? Does the engine go boom or does it got into to limp mode? Either would be bad if in traffic at speed on the track.

George,

If I hit 240 F water again, I plan on continuing to push hard and will only back off if I hit 245 F. I run an AIM data acquisition system like Imcgrew79, and will record all temp data. In his case, it looks like the car reaches equilibrium and doesn't continue to heat up. I'm with you, I don't want to find out what happens at 255 F, but I doubt anyone will hit that. Thermal systems eventually reach a steady state, at which point the temp will stop climbing.

I run a tow hook too, FYI.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Remember the radiator relies on air movement through its grills to cool . If to much positive air is building up behind the radiator it could be impeding cooling . The needs a way to keep flowing once its past the radiator. We work with this a lot on our race cars .

This is true but with a higher flowing radiator already tried (it seemed to cool to a certain level faster but hit a wall at speed), and hood vents removed, etc. it seems the restriction is in the opening of the grille or incoming air not the outlet.

[Bugman Jeff]

Since the bigger radiator didn't really help, could it be a water flow issue either too much or to little? Would it be worthwhile to remove the thermostat and test water restrictors of various sizes starting at no restriction and working down past the stock thermostat?

Would it be feasible to put some air pressure sensors on either side of the radiator to see how much pressure drop there is from one side to the other at speed? That might at least tell you if outgoing airflow is the problem.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Unless I've missed it nobody's car has gone into limp mode. Nobody's car has overheated. However, at these higher temps performance is reduced (at least marginally) by pulled timing. This thread should hopefully find a way to reduce temperatures in order to improve performance for those who are having an issue or for those who desire increased performance via improved cooling.


Since the bigger radiator didn't help, could it be a water flow issue either too much or to little? Would it be worthwhile to remove the thermostat and test water restrictors of various sizes starting at no restriction and working down past the stock thermostat?

That's another possibility as suggested by TrackAire several posts back. Flow that is too fast or slow and another good test for someone to try but maybe not as easy to back to back. Maybe start with no restriction and then try a step more restriction than OEM to get a direction.

[Snakebit10]

If Winkles says 255 degrees is safe limit then why is everyone worried about 24x degrees after admitted many laps at 8 - 10/10's driving? How many Vipers did a Vette imitation and quit at these 240 temps?

[VENOM V]

If Winkles says 255 degrees is safe limit then why is everyone worried about 24x degrees after admitted many laps at 8 - 10/10's driving? How many Vipers did a Vette imitation and quit at these 240 temps?

This is my opinion too. I've not heard of a single Viper go into limp mode for overtemp.

Chris mentioned that Tommy Kendall went into limp mode at Viper Tracks. This is because he bounced off of the rev limiter three times consecutively, and I hope my car goes into limp mode too if ever I abuse it that way, LOL

[Jack B]

Your post ruined this thread, wait, the majority will ignore good info and continue to confuse/ruin a good thread.

No dis to those that posted legit data.



If Winkles says 255 degrees is safe limit then why is everyone worried about 24x degrees after admitted many laps at 8 - 10/10's driving? How many Vipers did a Vette imitation and quit at these 240 temps?

[Stealth]

It's like I'm reading about some other model of car, these stories are foreign to me. How can it be that for two years I've been tracking my Viper and this month is the first time I've heard of this "overheating" issue? I tracked at Laguna Seca recently with 17 Vipers. No one overheated except for the C7 Z06, which went into limp mode and puked all of the coolant out right next to me in the paddock. He hit 267 F water and 309 F oil. Buttonwillow with 78 Vipers, no overheating issues on a single car. 2 C7 Z06s in limp mode at Buttonwillow in cool weather. I've tracked with other Vipers in 107 F and no one overheated. Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, Sears Point, Spring Mountain. Never had an issue other than touching 240 F coolant at Thunderhill in 106 F ambient, so I backed off for a lap and it immediately cooled. Then went hard for another 5 or 10 minutes and never touched 240 F water again. I did have an 02 sensor go that day, replaced under warranty the next week. Easy peasy. The only issue I've ever had with the Viper was that 02 sensor, no melted wires, no other issues at all. I just change the oil and brake pads, and an occasional alignment. And drive the wheels off of it, over 14,000 miles many of which are on the track.

This all seems blown out of proportion, only a couple of folks have had issues. As Darius said, Camaros run hot as his Z/28 hit 290 F oil (my modded Camaro required 2 oil coolers and custom shrouding to get the oil temps reasonable), C7 Vettes run hot. But I haven't seen it with Vipers.

And I know that this has been said, but to remind folks that Dick Winkles stated to keep the coolant temp below 255 F and oil below 300 F. I am nowhere near those values and I haven't read anyone else approaching them either.

+1 No evidence of "overheating"--just well-running Vipers! Todd's experience exactly mirrors my experience, although I have run only 2 separate days.

[Stealth]

There are 2-3 reported stock cars that seem to be running hot in this thread while tracking. This is hardly an epidemic for stock vehicles. Plenty of guys beating their cars to death not having issues running stock.

Majority of reported issues seem to stem from cars that are modified, from PCM to headers. While it sucks for them, it is a bit different than discussing stock cars running hot.

And as FLATOUT has said, the car even at 250* is far from hitting limp mode which is plaguing the Z06s.

Being said, hopefully it is something minor.

Actually, the stock cars reach the same temps as some of the modded cars--hotter than cruising on the street, but not overheated. The issues on the modded cars (thus far) appear to relate to melting of wires from headers, etc.

I ran my '14 GTS stock once in 72F weather and once with Arrow PCM, Corsa Exhaust and TA Bars in 85F weather. Temps were slightly higher on the hotter day as expected. No problems either day and no "flashing lights" noted either day at 240F Oil.

[ViperGeorge]

Actually, the stock cars reach the same temps as some of the modded cars--hotter than cruising on the street, but not overheated. The issues on the modded cars (thus far) appear to relate to melting of wires from headers, etc.

I ran my '14 GTS stock once in 72F weather and once with Arrow PCM, Corsa Exhaust and TA Bars in 85F weather. Temps were slightly higher on the hotter day as expected. No problems either day and no "flashing lights" noted either day at 240F Oil.

I am not sure that anyone has continued pushing the car hard once the idiot light flashes at 240. Maybe if we did the temps would stop rising at 245 and equalize as has been suggested by Venom V or maybe they would keep rising to some higher level. I don't think anyone knows for sure. Personally my car hit 243 when I had to back off because it threw a code for an accelerator pedal sensor (actually turned out to be the harness). At that point though it did not show any signs of stabilizing and this was only after about 15 minutes in 77 degrees ambient.

[lmcgrew79]

I'm not familiar with that track but I would be willing to bet that you could take some of those 2nd gears turns in 3rd and actually be faster. Especially with having 3.55's in the Gen V's. There are very few turns that you need to be in 2nd gear going through in a Viper with the amount of HP and TQ these cars produce. Going through in a higher gear will also get you to work on entry and mid corner speed and keep you from trying to make up for that time by trying to hammer it out of the corner. Sure, it feels cool but it's not necessarily the fastest way around the track and it's definitely not the easiest on your car. Smoother is faster.

Yeah i agree with that except that track has 5 45-65 mph turns, 3rd gear is slower out of those turns, the gen 5 with the 355 rear gear also has a completely different geared transmission than the gen 4 to match. 1st second and 3rd gears result similar speeds as the gen4.

[Nemesis]

You say you have experienced overheating but didn't mention any coolant or oil temps. Melting wires is an issue separate of the elevated track temps, take the proper precautions and you're good to go.

230-248 Water 280-300 Oil. Melting wires even when wrapped is not a separate issue, it is directly correlated. Especially when melting at 240 which double wrapped lines. Last time I melted down the GTS I wasn't even at the track.

[ViperGeorge]

230-248 Water 280-300 Oil. Melting wires even when wrapped is not a separate issue, it is directly correlated. Especially when melting at 240 which double wrapped lines. Last time I melted down the GTS I wasn't even at the track.

Wow, those are the hottest temps I've heard of yet. What mods, if any, does your car have?

[FLATOUT]

230-248 Water 280-300 Oil. Melting wires even when wrapped is not a separate issue, it is directly correlated. Especially when melting at 240 which double wrapped lines. Last time I melted down the GTS I wasn't even at the track.

Your last sentence, you melted wires on the street with normal operating temps?

[BLUETA#1]

So if we cut out the honeycomb in the V that should add some airflow. It won't be a "Flowtie" it will be "FlowVie".

Good one!

[BLUETA#1]

Being behind a car effects airflow immensely. It doesn't mean you have to be on a bumper. Draft starts many car lengths back. Draft =bad airflow for the radiator but good for aerodynamics. Us racers are always watching temps when we are in a pack drafting with bad airflow.

You are correct. I am seldom behind a car for long. I try to head out first onto the track and maybe a jacked up GTR gets me or an old cup car, but when they pass, they are by me fast.

[BLUETA#1]

Blue, do you have any vids or data of you lapping?

I have my second session on track….2:32 best lap and the temp was about to hit 240. I have managed to lower the temp a bit….from 2:32-34 lap times @ 240 to 2:28-29 @ 240. I can run 1-2 laps at 2:24 and I have to shut her down. I was going to post it, but I was getting flamed so bad, I did not want to expand the discussion into my driving. PM me if you want the link.

[BLUETA#1]

Like Mjorgensen NineBall and multiple others have suggested it is time to open up the front by reducing restrictions. Tow hooks are easy, but can the black portion of the grille be removed without being destroyed as a test or is it a structural part of the car? Looks like it only costs ~$100 (P/N 68141085AB) so buying one to cut up wouldn't be the end of the world. If that works it would be up to the user to modify his / hers or the aftermarket to come up with something that bolts in, or just have a cutout one for the track if it isn't too painful to install.

I have a new front grille in the box in my garage ready to hack up. Not sure how to do it. One thing that I have to say….the Viper parts are super reasonable.

[BLUETA#1]

George,

If I hit 240 F water again, I plan on continuing to push hard and will only back off if I hit 245 F. I run an AIM data acquisition system like Imcgrew79, and will record all temp data. In his case, it looks like the car reaches equilibrium and doesn't continue to heat up. I'm with you, I don't want to find out what happens at 255 F, but I doubt anyone will hit that. Thermal systems eventually reach a steady state, at which point the temp will stop climbing.

I run a tow hook too, FYI.

I plan to run past 240 to see if it goes any higher. I will let it get to 245 tops. Then I will do an ECU swap. Last move will be to pull the entire front grill off. New car is not here until March and I have 5 track days until then. Next will be to run stock tires. I will keep trying.

[ironpeddler]

Keep it up Blue...don't let the haters get to you. I appreciate what you are doing and I am sure others do also. I am hoping that you will find the solution.

[ViperSmith]

Keep it up Blue...don't let the haters get to you. I appreciate what you are doing and I am sure others do also. I am hoping that you will find the solution.

No one it hating, stop being obtuse

[Snakebit10]

I have my second session on track….2:32 best lap and the temp was about to hit 240. I have managed to lower the temp a bit….from 2:32-34 lap times @ 240 to 2:28-29 @ 240. I can run 1-2 laps at 2:24 and I have to shut her down. I was going to post it, but I was getting flamed so bad, I did not want to expand the discussion into my driving. PM me if you want the link.

I don't recall you mentioning that your car is cutting out or not operating well while at those temps (240-245 degrees). It seems that once it hits that temp range you decided it was too hot and did cool down laps. It seems as if the engineer stated that 255 degrees is a safe limit for the car. In other words it seems designed to operate safely up to those temps. So if nothing it going wrong with the car at those temps and its still turning in those 2:24 laps times then it would seem you could have done a few more laps before/if it hit the 250+ temp range. Has anyone got it up to 255 degrees on track? If so what happened at that point? Just wondering if we are using temps from other cars as a measuring stick for this car. For instance the G4 Vipers were in the 210 temp range but the G5 runs hotter so we might think the G5 needs to be 200-210.

When a car overheats it quits a la Vette. These Vipers running 230-245 are still running from what I'm reading so I'm not sure the car is overheating especially after what the engineer has said is the safe limit. Wanting cooler temps is great but if the car is designed with that operating temp range we might be making more of this than necessary? Just thinking out loud from a different perspective on this issue. I reserve the right to be wrong.

[ACR Steve]

Personally I think its the air flow on the back end of the radiator that's causing some of the issues. I haven't received my Gen 5 yet but everyone says how much tighter it then the 4. Radiator needs the flow behind to properly draw air through.

[ironpeddler]

No one it hating, stop being obtuse

I was just trying to give him some encouragement. Whats wrong with that? He just stated in a previous post that he was afraid to post a vid of him driving cause of all the flaming he would receive. Who would be flaming him? Haters, hence my comment. So I made my post trying to offer some encouragement. Now I am being obtuse? Explain yourself.

[FLATOUT]

Spot on here.

This is a great discussion and has probably helped a lot of people learn a lot about cooling a Gen V at the fastest levels of HPDE style track days. Not saying we can't figure out ways to try and get the car to run cooler, but I feel like this thread in particular has started to take on the correct tone which is how can we lower elevated track temps. Yes these few examples are still in what the cars designers consider to be a safe range but it is approaching the ceiling of the safe range.




I don't recall you mentioning that your car is cutting out or not operating well while at those temps (240-245 degrees). It seems that once it hits that temp range you decided it was too hot and did cool down laps. It seems as if the engineer stated that 255 degrees is a safe limit for the car. In other words it seems designed to operate safely up to those temps. So if nothing it going wrong with the car at those temps and its still turning in those 2:24 laps times then it would seem you could have done a few more laps before/if it hit the 250+ temp range. Has anyone got it up to 255 degrees on track? If so what happened at that point? Just wondering if we are using temps from other cars as a measuring stick for this car. For instance the G4 Vipers were in the 210 temp range but the G5 runs hotter so we might think the G5 needs to be 200-210.

When a car overheats it quits a la Vette. These Vipers running 230-245 are still running from what I'm reading so I'm not sure the car is overheating especially after what the engineer has said is the safe limit. Wanting cooler temps is great but if the car is designed with that operating temp range we might be making more of this than necessary? Just thinking out loud from a different perspective on this issue. I reserve the right to be wrong.

[ViperDC]

I was just trying to give him some encouragement. Whats wrong with that? He just stated in a previous post that he was afraid to post a vid of him driving cause of all the flaming he would receive. Who would be flaming him? Haters, hence my comment. So I made my post trying to offer some encouragement. Now I am being obtuse? Explain yourself.

Your comments about how the Gen V cooling system "sucks" in your original post are ridiculous. Talk about much ado about nothing. Just to recap, no car has overheated on the track yet, multiple owners have said they have no temp issues even when beating on the cars, a couple have said they run hotter than they'd like but their cars didn't overheat and were running cooler than what Viper engineers say is an acceptable limit and they have no idea if their cars would have even approached that limit or overheated had they kept driving hard.

To show up, blast people and post a bunch of tripe about how the Viper cooling system "sucks" is contributing nothing to the discussion.

[ViperGeorge]

Spot on here.

This is a great discussion and has probably helped a lot of people learn a lot about cooling a Gen V at the fastest levels of HPDE style track days. Not saying we can't figure out ways to try and get the car to run cooler, but I feel like this thread in particular has started to take on the correct tone which is how can we lower elevated track temps. Yes these few examples are still in what the cars designers consider to be a safe range but it is approaching the ceiling of the safe range.

This is exactly right. How can we lower elevated track temps? While some posters keep saying "No car has overheated", the truth is we don't know if they would because everyone that reaches 240 and gets the idiot light has backed off. I don't think anyone wants to be the first to see what happens if they keep pushing up to 255. I certainly don't want to find out. I'd rather have a larger cushion between track temps and the upper limits as specified by the engineers.

I do also believe that, as someone already posted, melted EVAP lines and melted wires by those with headers are related to high engine temps. Headers coupled with the higher engine temps must certainly increase the heat load absorbed by components in the engine compartment.

[VENOM V]

I plan to run past 240 to see if it goes any higher. I will let it get to 245 tops. Then I will do an ECU swap. Last move will be to pull the entire front grill off. New car is not here until March and I have 5 track days until then. Next will be to run stock tires. I will keep trying.

Sounds like a good plan, looking forward to seeing your results. I am tracking Oct 17-18 on Hoosiers and will report back all temp data.

[Steve M]

Here's another random thought: everyone keeps talking about engine coolant temps, but not too many have mentioned the oil temps. The engine oil cooler uses coolant to cool the oil. This is a fantastic system for a street car since the system works both ways - it gets the oil up to temp more quickly, and then holds it there. Under hot track conditions, though, the cooler might be getting overwhelmed...it's trying to dump the engine oil heat into the coolant as quickly as possible, but that's likely only compounding the problem.

What about running a dedicated oil cooler to keep the systems separate? I'm not sure if there's enough real estate to mount one, but it might be an interesting experiment.

[ViperGeorge]

Here's another random thought: everyone keeps talking about engine coolant temps, but not too many have mentioned the oil temps. The engine oil cooler uses coolant to cool the oil. This is a fantastic system for a street car since the system works both ways - it gets the oil up to temp more quickly, and then holds it there. Under hot track conditions, though, the cooler might be getting overwhelmed...it's trying to dump the engine oil heat into the coolant as quickly as possible, but that's likely only compounding the problem.

What about running a dedicated oil cooler to keep the systems separate? I'm not sure if there's enough real estate to mount one, but it might be an interesting experiment.

I've been thinking the same thing. In fact the coolant lines run close to the exhaust on the passenger side, which could allow for exhaust heat (especially with headers) to be absorbed by the coolant on its way to the oil cooler. This could keep the cooler from cooling the oil enough. Hotter oil would in turn raise the temperature of the coolant. It is a vicious cycle.

I've posted my oil temps already but at 243 coolant my oil was 263.

[BLUETA#1]

I don't recall you mentioning that your car is cutting out or not operating well while at those temps (240-245 degrees). It seems that once it hits that temp range you decided it was too hot and did cool down laps. It seems as if the engineer stated that 255 degrees is a safe limit for the car. In other words it seems designed to operate safely up to those temps. So if nothing it going wrong with the car at those temps and its still turning in those 2:24 laps times then it would seem you could have done a few more laps before/if it hit the 250+ temp range. Has anyone got it up to 255 degrees on track? If so what happened at that point? Just wondering if we are using temps from other cars as a measuring stick for this car. For instance the G4 Vipers were in the 210 temp range but the G5 runs hotter so we might think the G5 needs to be 200-210.

When a car overheats it quits a la Vette. These Vipers running 230-245 are still running from what I'm reading so I'm not sure the car is overheating especially after what the engineer has said is the safe limit. Wanting cooler temps is great but if the car is designed with that operating temp range we might be making more of this than necessary? Just thinking out loud from a different perspective on this issue. I reserve the right to be wrong.


I added a higher pressure coolant cap months ago. I worry at 250 my head gasket is now the weak link. As a mentioned earlier I will try 245ish and see what happens.

[BLUETA#1]

Here's another random thought: everyone keeps talking about engine coolant temps, but not too many have mentioned the oil temps. The engine oil cooler uses coolant to cool the oil. This is a fantastic system for a street car since the system works both ways - it gets the oil up to temp more quickly, and then holds it there. Under hot track conditions, though, the cooler might be getting overwhelmed...it's trying to dump the engine oil heat into the coolant as quickly as possible, but that's likely only compounding the problem.

What about running a dedicated oil cooler to keep the systems separate? I'm not sure if there's enough real estate to mount one, but it might be an interesting experiment.

If I went to a dry sump set up would that help. I was wondering the same thing you were about the oil.

[BLUETA#1]

I've been thinking the same thing. In fact the coolant lines run close to the exhaust on the passenger side, which could allow for exhaust heat (especially with headers) to be absorbed by the coolant on its way to the oil cooler. This could keep the cooler from cooling the oil enough. Hotter oil would in turn raise the temperature of the coolant. It is a vicious cycle.

I've posted my oil temps already but at 243 coolant my oil was 263.

I hit 270 on day one….moved to a 15/50 and it now runs at 255-260.

[TrackAire]

This is exactly right. How can we lower elevated track temps? While some posters keep saying "No car has overheated", the truth is we don't know if they would because everyone that reaches 240 and gets the idiot light has backed off. I don't think anyone wants to be the first to see what happens if they keep pushing up to 255. I certainly don't want to find out. I'd rather have a larger cushion between track temps and the upper limits as specified by the engineers.

I do also believe that, as someone already posted, melted EVAP lines and melted wires by those with headers are related to high engine temps. Headers coupled with the higher engine temps must certainly increase the heat load absorbed by components in the engine compartment.

Quick question regarding the actual idiot light and the computer. If the idiot light comes on, does the PCM store that information?.......and if you continue to drive the car and the cars temps continue to go up, does the PCM store that info?

My point is if you overheat the car to the point it damages something (head gaskets, warp heads, bearings, etc), does the PCM store that information and can it be used by the dealer to see that you continued driving the car even when the idiot light came on? Most of these cars are still under warranty....but I can see that being denied if the PCM has records of the car being over heated and showing continued 100% throttle position, etc. The way Dodge operates, I would be very careful on abusing the car on the premise that the warranty will cover it.

I can just see the conversation now with Dodge:

Car owner....... "My idiot light came on and I kept running at the track because Dick Winkles said I'm safe at 255 degrees"

Dodge............."We don't have an employee on the payroll by the name of Dick Winkles....do you happen to have anything in writing from SRT stating it's ok to keep driving when the warning system tells you it's overheating?"

At this point, as much as I know we respect Dick Winkles and his opinions, he is no longer a FCA employee. What would be helpful is if SRT came out with written confirmation that these temps are within spec and specifically what will the car do if you exceed 255 degrees (limp mode, shut down, play the William Tell Overture, etc).

[ViperGeorge]

Quick question regarding the actual idiot light and the computer. If the idiot light comes on, does the PCM store that information?.......and if you continue to drive the car and the cars temps continue to go up, does the PCM store that info?

My point is if you overheat the car to the point it damages something (head gaskets, warp heads, bearings, etc), does the PCM store that information and can it be used by the dealer to see that you continued driving the car even when the idiot light came on? Most of these cars are still under warranty....but I can see that being denied if the PCM has records of the car being over heated and showing continued 100% throttle position, etc. The way Dodge operates, I would be very careful on abusing the car on the premise that the warranty will cover it.

I can just see the conversation now with Dodge:

Car owner....... "My idiot light came on and I kept running at the track because Dick Winkles said I'm safe at 255 degrees"

Dodge............."We don't have an employee on the payroll by the name of Dick Winkles....do you happen to have anything in writing from SRT stating it's ok to keep driving when the warning system tells you it's overheating?"

At this point, as much as I know we respect Dick Winkles and his opinions, he is no longer a FCA employee. What would be helpful is if SRT came out with written confirmation that these temps are within spec and specifically what will the car do if you exceed 255 degrees (limp mode, shut down, play the William Tell Overture, etc).

SRT's acceptance criteria in testing is a target max temp for a 20 minute track run in 100 degree ambient of 250. This I have in writing but won't share so as not to compromise my source.

[ViperGeorge]

I hit 270 on day one….moved to a 15/50 and it now runs at 255-260.

I too switched to 15W50 Mobil 1. My oil temp was 258 at 240 coolant during the most recent track day. Not sure how that equates to 263 at 243 coolant in a previous session with 10W40. Maybe a little lower but not much. Of course I am running headers. This may, as I've posted, bleed heat into the coolant lines that go to the oil cooler.

[Snakebit10]

^^ Good points Trackaire. Definitely a probable scenario. I forgot Winkles is no longer with FCA.

[VENOM V]

SRT's acceptance criteria in testing is a target max temp for a 20 minute track run in 100 degree ambient of 250. This I have in writing but won't share so as not to compromise my source.

George, did they give you a target max for oil for their criteria testing?

[Bigdogmark]

The headers that people are running, are they jet hot coated or have any type of thermal barrier coating to minimize heat loss into the engine compartment?

[TrackAire]

SRT's acceptance criteria in testing is a target max temp for a 20 minute track run in 100 degree ambient of 250. This I have in writing but won't share so as not to compromise my source.

So for those that don't have the super cool kid decoder ring secret handshake top secret password note, everyone is back to square one, including you. If you take your written confirmation with you to your local Dodge dealer for a replacement motor, do you think it will be useful in getting a new engine if yours lets go and the computer showed long term overheating with continual throttle position setting of 100%? Hell, people are getting grief when the rear window explodes due to Dodges defective rear window defrost system. Good luck explaining you knew the car was getting hot but you kept your foot in it and now you deserve a new engine.

All this bullshit can go away if SRT puts in writing what is a safe maximum temperature and how will the car respond if it goes over that threshold so you know you have to shut it down. My gut is telling me whatever is in your owners manual is what is going to hold up in arbitration when you're trying to argue for a new motor. The owners manual is written in such a way (vague) that the manufacturer will always win if you exceed the parameters of what the manual lists.

[AZTVR]

Dodge............."We don't have an employee on the payroll by the name of Dick Winkles....do you happen to have anything in writing from SRT stating it's ok to keep driving when the warning system tells you it's overheating?"

At this point, as much as I know we respect Dick Winkles and his opinions, he is no longer a FCA employee. What would be helpful is if SRT came out with written confirmation that these temps are within spec and specifically what will the car do if you exceed 255 degrees (limp mode, shut down, play the William Tell Overture, etc).

As far as warranty goes, I believe that it would be reasonable for Dodge to hold the owner responsible to follow the instructions provided with the vehicle.
Below are the words in the owner's manual:
• Engine Temperature
This telltale warns of an overheated engine condition. As temperatures rise and the gauge approaches H, or 260°F, this telltale will illuminate, and a single chime will sound after reaching a set threshold. Further overheating will cause the temperature gauge to pass H, or 260°F.A continuous chime will occur until the engine is allowed to cool. If the telltale turns on while driving, safely pull over and stop the vehicle."

The User's Guide says:
- Engine Temperature Warning Light
• This light warns of an overheated engine condition.
• If the light turns on or flashes continuously while driving, safely pull over and stop the
vehicle. If the A/C system is on, turn it off. Also, shift the transmission into NEUTRAL
and idle the vehicle. If the temperature reading does not return to normal, turn the
engine off immediately.
• We recommend that you do not operate the vehicle or engine damage will occur. Have
the vehicle serviced immediately.

[ViperGeorge]

George, did they give you a target max for oil for their criteria testing?

No they did not say anything about oil temp.

[ViperGeorge]

So for those that don't have the super cool kid decoder ring secret handshake top secret password note, everyone is back to square one, including you. If you take your written confirmation with you to your local Dodge dealer for a replacement motor, do you think it will be useful in getting a new engine if yours lets go and the computer showed long term overheating with continual throttle position setting of 100%? Hell, people are getting grief when the rear window explodes due to Dodges defective rear window defrost system. Good luck explaining you knew the car was getting hot but you kept your foot in it and now you deserve a new engine.

All this bullshit can go away if SRT puts in writing what is a safe maximum temperature and how will the car respond if it goes over that threshold so you know you have to shut it down. My gut is telling me whatever is in your owners manual is what is going to hold up in arbitration when you're trying to argue for a new motor. The owners manual is written in such a way (vague) that the manufacturer will always win if you exceed the parameters of what the manual lists.

This is why when the idiot light comes on I back off and let the engine cool. I'm not going to tempt fate. So now you know why some of us are talking about this issue. It is not a question of whether the engine can take 255 or not, it shouldn't be hitting 240 in the first place. The idiot light is a warning I take seriously even if there is a slight cushion built in.

[ViperGeorge]

The headers that people are running, are they jet hot coated or have any type of thermal barrier coating to minimize heat loss into the engine compartment?

This is a good question. My understanding is the Jet Hot coating is the way to go for the best heat barrier. I don't believe Bellangers use this coating though and my understanding is that the American Racing ones are not coated unless you decide to send them in for a coating at additional cost. At least that is the way it was on the American Racing headers I had on my Gen 4.

[VENOM V]

Is it just me or is there anybody else out there that feels that coolant temps in the order of 250 Deg is a bet extreme. I understand that at that temp the car is still holding it's coolant so it's not overheating per say. But how are these elevated temps going to effect the engine as far as longevity and reliability down the road?


I'm going with Dick Winkles, he's the authority. 255 F is the limit, per the man. Seeing how no one has hit 250 F yet, I'm not worried about it. As I said, I'll back off at 245 F if I ever see that temp.

[FLATOUT]

[QUOTE=TheMadMachinist;169871]Is it just me or is there anybody else out there that feels that coolant temps in the order of 250 Deg is a bet extreme. I understand that at that temp the car is still holding it's coolant so it's not overheating per say. But how are these elevated temps going to effect the engine as far as longevity and reliability down the road?[/QUOTES]

I'm going with Dick Winkles, he's the authority. 255 F is the limit, per the man. Seeing how no one has hit 250 F yet, I'm not worried about it. As I said, I'll back off at 245 F if I ever see that temp.

Thanks, I don't know how many times we have to say it. If they (factory folks) aren't worried, I'm not worried. Interested yes, worried no.

[TrackAire]

ViperGeorge,

I am one of those that does think this is an issue. Maybe I don't understand how an engine is suppose to work, but IMO doing 5 sessions a day at 250 degree ECT would make the day stressful to me. And we really haven't even discussed what the high sustained oil temps can do.

Regardless of what the owners manual suggests is high (260 degrees), I too would back down at the first LED warning light. At those temps, the chances of a hose, hose clamp, radiator cap, etc letting go becomes even more of an issue in my eyes. Besides the potential damage that can happen to the engine, spraying coolant onto your tires when at track speeds can literally be deadly, especially with the rate of acceleration a Viper can attain on the track.

So, who is going to be the brave one to keep running on the track after the first warning LED and see if the temps stabilize at around 250 degrees or will they keep climbing and get the dreaded continuous chime and 260 degrees on the temp gauge??

[VENOM V]

ViperGeorge,

I am one of those that does think this is an issue. Maybe I don't understand how an engine is suppose to work, but IMO doing 5 sessions a day at 250 degree ECT would make the day stressful to me. And we really haven't even discussed what the high sustained oil temps can do.

Regardless of what the owners manual suggests is high (260 degrees), I too would back down at the first LED warning light. At those temps, the chances of a hose, hose clamp, radiator cap, etc letting go becomes even more of an issue in my eyes. Besides the potential damage that can happen to the engine, spraying coolant onto your tires when at track speeds can literally be deadly, especially with the rate of acceleration a Viper can attain on the track.

So, who is going to be the brave one to keep running on the track after the first warning LED and see if the temps stabilize at around 250 degrees or will they keep climbing and get the dreaded continuous chime and 260 degrees on the temp gauge??

I volunteer George, LOL. I do thermal testing on the robots that I design, and thermal systems will climb in temp until they reach an equilibrium. There's no evidence yet that they will keep climbing in the Viper, my guess is that they will plateau before they hit 250 F even on a hot day with a good driver on a long session. I will allow my car to go beyond 240 F and will record the data with my Aim Solo DL, and will post.

If you look at Imcgrew's post below, you can see temps plateauing and not rising much on laps 5 - 10. This would suggest that it's close to reaching steady state, and shouldn't continue to climb by much. Peak temps on his data are:

Lap Temp
5 237 F
6 239 F
7 237 F
8 241 F
9 241 F
10 235 F


Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/lmcgrew79/ta%20temps_zpscvaziehz.jpg

[Stealth]

I'm going with Dick Winkles, he's the authority. 255 F is the limit, per the man. Seeing how no one has hit 250 F yet, I'm not worried about it. As I said, I'll back off at 245 F if I ever see that temp.

As I noted above, when I briefly exceeded 240F Oil I did not get any chime or constant or intermittent warning light. Have you seen such an alleged "idiot light"?

[TrackAire]

VENOM V, perfect....this will be very informative.

I now command you to change your forum name to Icarus!!

[VENOM V]

As I noted above, when I briefly exceeded 240F Oil I did not get any chime or constant or intermittent warning light. Have you seen such an alleged "idiot light"?

Yes I have, the 240 F warning lamp came on for me but is for coolant, not oil. Oil can hold up to much higher temps. Dick Winkles said to keep it below 255 F coolant and 300 F oil. 240 F oil is fine.

[VENOM V]

VENOM V, perfect....this will be very informative.

I now command you to change your forum name to Icarus!!

Haha, George. You gonna finally make the trek down to Buttonwillow Oct 17-18 with us and try out that fine track? I know it's a long drive, but Willow Ranch BBQ will make it all worth it :smileys-car-driving

[TrackAire]

Haha, George. You gonna finally make the trek down to Buttonwillow Oct 17-18 with us and try out that fine track? I know it's a long drive, but Willow Ranch BBQ will make it all worth it :smileys-car-driving

Family vacation in Tahoe that weekend....mother in law turns the big 85.

I'm also prepping the new track car, but stuff at work has been crazy busy. Buttonwillow is a great track....even though it is in the middle of nowhere, I love that place. Perfect time of the year to be at BW.

[Eachey51]

Hey guys i dont own a genV but i just wondered if the engineers cut the honeycomb grill out to improve airflow, would removing the grills from the side gills improve air flow through the engine bay resulting in more air through the radiator? Desregard if i dont know what im talking about! :)

[darbgnik]

Hey guys i dont own a genV but i just wondered if the engineers cut the honeycomb grill out to improve airflow, would removing the grills from the side gills improve air flow through the engine bay resulting in more air through the radiator? Desregard if i dont know what im talking about! :)

Interesting thought, I can't remember what my Gen 3 had in the side gills, if anything..........

[fuggles]

If I'm not mistaken the normal operating temp for most internal combustion engines and this includes the Viper is designed at 190/200 deg.

I don't think so. All of my cars regularly operate above 200F on the street. Audi, BMW, Saturn and my Gen 4 Viper.

[kdaviper]

Is the car lowered at all? perhaps you are losing under-hood air flow?

[serpent]

SO.... has the OP sold his TA 2.0? Curious to know what P car he is going to get. Would be funny hearing about his Porsche getting passed by a new ACR.

[darbgnik]

SO.... has the OP sold his TA 2.0? Curious to know what P car he is going to get. Would be funny hearing about his Porsche getting passed by a new ACR.

Fast guys are fast in anything, sounds like he might not be worried. lol

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Hey guys i dont own a genV but i just wondered if the engineers cut the honeycomb grill out to improve airflow, would removing the grills from the side gills improve air flow through the engine bay resulting in more air through the radiator? Desregard if i dont know what im talking about! :)

Yes this should help in theory, if they come out easily it would be a good test.


Interesting thought, I can't remember what my Gen 3 had in the side gills, if anything..........

If anything I would say the Gen III/IV is a bit more restrictive, although there is no honeycomb / grill there isn't as direct a path for airflow through the gills as the Gen V.

[BLUETA#1]

SO.... has the OP sold his TA 2.0? Curious to know what P car he is going to get. Would be funny hearing about his Porsche getting passed by a new ACR.

I won't sell it for a while. My new car will not be in until March April. I am not announcing that to avoid the flames.

No matter what I bring to the track, there is something faster. 2 events ago a guy showed up in Michael Schumacher's 2002 Ferrari F1 car. He passed me and it didn't bother me.

Whatever I drive, I prefer to have the car up on its skis a bit without worrying about the engine blowing. I ran a bunch of races in a spec Miata…not the fastest car, but driving it was a freaking ball.

[cashcorn]

I wonder if removing the grill, side sills & hood vents(get rid of the brake ducts) would allow for a better flow? just saying...

[BLUETA#1]

I wonder if removing the grill, side sills & hood vents(get rid of the brake ducts) would allow for a better flow? just saying...

It’s a good observation. I purchased a new grill with the hopes of engineering a solution. Cutting the grill enough without removing the needed structural support for the front nose, its above my engineering ability.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

It’s a good observation. I purchased a new grill with the hopes of engineering a solution. Cutting the grill enough without removing the needed structural support for the front nose, its above my engineering ability.

I looked at one today quickly. Cutting out the V honeycomb as well as the upper half of the cross bar in the center of the grille might be a good place to start without compromising too much. These locations didn't seem to have anything behind them so in theory they would allow more airflow.

[BLUETA#1]

I looked at one today quickly. Cutting out the V honeycomb as well as the upper half of the cross bar in the center of the grille might be a good place to start without compromising too much. These locations didn't seem to have anything behind them so in theory they would allow more airflow.

I will check it out.

[ViperGeorge]

I looked at one today quickly. Cutting out the V honeycomb as well as the upper half of the cross bar in the center of the grille might be a good place to start without compromising too much. These locations didn't seem to have anything behind them so in theory they would allow more airflow.

I looked at my 14 GTS today and it appears to have some kind of brace behind the V. I don't think cutting out the honeycomb would help.

[FLATOUT]

A bunch fast Gen V's just flew around the National Corvette Museum Track today on Hoosiers and I think LMgrew was on slicks without issues. Randy Pobst ran the quick lap of the day in Mike Levitas's TA 1.0 with our Active damper package with Ralph a sec behind him in the new ACR on Hoosiers.

[ViperGeorge]

A bunch fast Gen V's just flew around the National Corvette Museum Track today on Hoosiers and I think LMgrew was on slicks without issues. Randy Pobst ran the quick lap of the day in Mike Levitas's TA 1.0 with our Active damper package with Ralph a sec behind him in the new ACR on Hoosiers.

But what temps were they seeing? Were they seeing 240 coolant or so?

[FLATOUT]

But what temps were they seeing? Were they seeing 240 coolant or so?

Gary just sent me a text and said no one was north of 210 that he knew of.

[Steve M]

Gary just sent me a text and said no one was north of 210 that he knew of.

We also just had a cold front move through yesterday...it only made it into the mid-60s around Dayton today, so I'm guessing the ambient temps in Bowling Green weren't too much higher than that.

[ACR]

A bunch fast Gen V's just flew around the National Corvette Museum Track today on Hoosiers and I think LMgrew was on slicks without issues. Randy Pobst ran the quick lap of the day in Mike Levitas's TA 1.0 with our Active damper package with Ralph a sec behind him in the new ACR on Hoosiers.

how good is Ralph as a driver? Curious how the ACR stacks to the TA/Active

[BLUETA#1]

A bunch fast Gen V's just flew around the National Corvette Museum Track today on Hoosiers and I think LMgrew was on slicks without issues. Randy Pobst ran the quick lap of the day in Mike Levitas's TA 1.0 with our Active damper package with Ralph a sec behind him in the new ACR on Hoosiers.

Nice to hear, but his info is not helpful for several reasons:

We have no idea of the duration of the sessions
Ambient temps (its cool up there now)
It’s not the same car (TA1.0, not a TA2.0)
"Fast" needs a lap time
We don't know the modifications

[FLATOUT]

how good is Ralph as a driver? Curious how the ACR stacks to the TA/Active

Ralph is very fast, ran Viper Cup and still runs quite often I would put his times up against just about anyone's. He was on R7's with the grill inserts removed and the front fender inserts removed. Randy Pobst was in Mikes stock TA with our Active Dampers car was also on R7's. NCM is not a downforce track so not much advantage for the ACR.

The TA on our suspension ran a 1:55 the ACR was in the 1:56's Luke on slicks was in the 1:57's I think.


Nice to hear, but his info is not helpful for several reasons:

We have no idea of the duration of the sessions
Ambient temps (its cool up there now)
It’s not the same car (TA1.0, not a TA2.0)
"Fast" needs a lap time
We don't know the modifications

Lap times

TA 1.0 stock with ViperExchange Active Dampers, R7's, Randy Pobst 1:55
ACR Extreme stock with R7's, Ralph 1:56
TA 1.0 on Pirelli slicks, Luke 1:57 (I don't know much about Lukes car but he posts here)
TA 1.0 Gary W ViperExchange Active Dampers not sure what tire or mods on Gary's car but I'll find out more.

I'll chat with Mike L today and get more specifics about the temps both ambient and what they saw.