How does the TA manage to fall so far behind in this test?

[Rapidrezults]

This should be a fun one. It looks like our beloved rival Z06 has done some work at the new C&D Lightning Lap test at VIR. I know there is a lot of BS behind this test but figured it would be a good debate to possibly bring forth some truth that may not be revealed on the 'other' site. Is it respect where respect is due? They're planning a national parade on the Corvetteofurm right now. Lmao! I find it difficult to believe they magically didn't have any cooling issues considering the weather they were in. I did not read the full article, however.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm163/rapidrezults/z06_918_3a6cae370c5eea7dd04e06b7411f4474dccc0fb8_z psxtmhj2vr.jpg

[rw99]

We know from Seca times that the TA should (at least) be on pace with the Gen IV ACR... but even if it was "under driven", that just seems like a magical time for the Z06 when taken in context of the (concurrent) 918.

I'm at a loss to explain...

[Destrukt]

I have taken a leave of absence from the corvetteforum due to the celebrating going on over there. Too much circle jerking going on at CF, I almost canceled my lifetime membership

[Darius]

Wasn't the track repaved recently? Also those times are a culmination over time. Not all cars were tested on the same day, by the same driver. I've passed a lot of cars over they years that should have left me in the dust. Unless it's the same day, same driver the lap times are meaningless to me.

[640bhpV10]

Here is video of that TA lap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2NiOeoHZ1I

It's not the cleanest lap, but the Viper is a high workload car. Can't expect the typical driver (even experienced ones) to run an ideal lap after only 5-6 tries. Thats part of the appeal of the car...getting the most out of it is a long term project. :)

Plus, with the Z06's extreme aero, ceramic brakes, and stickier rubber - we need the ACR to take it down on a track like VIR. I was hoping that it would be part of the Lightning Lap line-up for 2015, but I guess were not so lucky (maybe because it is a 2016 MY car?). Plus, like Darius said, it was a different year with potentially different pavement.

At least an American car outran the McLaren 650S (!) and Huracan.

-Nick

[ViperSmith]

Th waxers over there are looking so hard for any good news to tell the people with overheating issues that it is a fast car and to stfu. The car and coffee crowd is super excited.

[BlackSnake99]

Too bad the ZO6 only made that one lap before going into limp mode.

[Nine Ball]

Here is video of that TA lap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2NiOeoHZ1I

It's not the cleanest lap, but the Viper is a high workload car.

I disagree with the TA being a high workload car. It does everything I command it to do. When I drive it like shit, it is not the vehicle's fault. That driver was terrible, he couldn't even handle the BMW M4 automatic on the same track. The BMW M4 is not a "high workload" car, either, lol. Watch his other videos, he consistently turns in too early, then has to correct mid-turn. He also doesn't brake nearly hard enough, and seems to trail brake (due to correcting his steering). Just poor driving, period. Until the Z06 video comes out, we do not know if it is the same driver.

https://youtu.be/vkqDm4UMG5A

Tony

[Canadian venom]

Why bring that old test back? It's already one year old.....

[Snakebit10]

I'm thinking that the Z06 would probably be a few tenths to 1 sec faster in a head to head with the TA in 1 lap same day/track due to the tires. I'd bet if you put equal rubber on both though it would probably be a virtual tie until the Z overheats lol. The ACR will crush it.

[Leadfoot]

I have a ZO6/ZO7 and there is no denying it is a very capable car. It has recorded 1.46G's on Road Atlanta and is easier to drive fast than my 2010 ACR was. BUT, I too have had the limp mode issues in any weather above 85 deg due to the conservative programming of the ECU to preserve the drivetrain for the 5/100 warranty. Supposedly the 2016's are more liberally tuned now that GM (and unfortunately Dodge too) has reduced the power train to 5/60. That being said, my 2016 ACR Extreme will be here hopefully sooner than later. I'm keeping the ZO6 for around town/mountain drives as it is unmatched in its ability to blend speed with creature comforts such as removable roof, cooled seats, and a great stereo. The ACR and ZO6 are both great cars in my book, albeit, with slightly different design goals. The saying " the ZO6 is a great road car that you can take to the track and the ACR is an amazing track car that you can drive on the street" rings very true to me.

[ViperSmith]

I have a ZO6/ZO7 and there is no denying it is a very capable car. It has recorded 1.46G's on Road Atlanta and is easier to drive fast than my 2010 ACR was. BUT, I too have had the limp mode issues in any weather above 85 deg due to the conservative programming of the ECU to preserve the drivetrain for the 5/100 warranty. Supposedly the 2016's are more liberally tuned now that GM (and unfortunately Dodge too) has reduced the power train to 4/60. That being said, my 2016 ACR Extreme will be here hopefully sooner than later. I'm keeping the ZO6 for around town/mountain drives as it is unmatched in its ability to blend speed with creature comforts such as removable roof, cooled seats, and a great stereo. The ACR and ZO6 are both great cars in my book, albeit, with slightly different design goals. The saying " the ZO6 is a great road car that you can take to the track and the ACR is an amazing track car that you can drive on the street" rings very true to me.

Wait, when did Dodge cut back the powertrain warranty?

edit: http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/fiat-chrysler-cuts-powertrain-warranty-coverage-on-2016-vehicles.html

Well that is bullshit (still 5 years though), though I doubt much of a worry for 99% of Vipers - but still bullshit.

[ViperJon]

Too bad they didn't use a three lap aggregate total....

[Rapidrezults]

I disagree with the TA being a high workload car. It does everything I command it to do. When I drive it like shit, it is not the vehicle's fault. That driver was terrible, he couldn't even handle the BMW M4 automatic on the same track. The BMW M4 is not a "high workload" car, either, lol. Watch his other videos, he consistently turns in too early, then has to correct mid-turn. He also doesn't brake nearly hard enough, and seems to trail brake (due to correcting his steering). Just poor driving, period. Until the Z06 video comes out, we do not know if it is the same driver.

https://youtu.be/vkqDm4UMG5A

Tony

Tony,

I don't think the drivers are the same in both of those videos. I disagree, the BMW M4 is a hand full to drive, evidenced by this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM

I couldn't resist. :t0135:

[LmeaViper]

Here is video of that TA lap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2NiOeoHZ1I

It's not the cleanest lap, but the Viper is a high workload car. Can't expect the typical driver (even experienced ones) to run an ideal lap after only 5-6 tries. Thats part of the appeal of the car...getting the most out of it is a long term project. :)

Plus, with the Z06's extreme aero, ceramic brakes, and stickier rubber - we need the ACR to take it down on a track like VIR. I was hoping that it would be part of the Lightning Lap line-up for 2015, but I guess were not so lucky (maybe because it is a 2016 MY car?). Plus, like Darius said, it was a different year with potentially different pavement.

At least an American car outran the McLaren 650S (!) and Huracan.

-Nick

-----------------------
Good Lord, definitely a far from smooth lap...he was all over the place.

[LmeaViper]

Tony,

I don't think the drivers are the same in both of those videos. I disagree, the BMW M4 is a hand full to drive, evidenced by this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM

I couldn't resist. :t0135:

--------------------
Oh my god, what was that? Who ever was driving has the reaction time of a 90 year old man. No steering correction at all..wtf LOL

[Vprbite]

I'm gonna have to give the car credit for handling the jump over the median like a german "General Lee." Put on 01 on the side of that bitch.

And the corvette runs 1.5 seconds slower than the Porsche 918? That's hard for me to believe. Also, isn't this the first good time we have seen and not read the words "heat soak" or "overheat" or "puke oil"? It had to be perfect tires and the best driver. Because this is contrary to all we have seen. It was also handing out free asswhoopings to the 650s as well.

I smell something fishy here. But you can bet they are gonna ring this time like the liberty bell till it cracks. Perhaps there should be a forum just for new vette owners who overheated and had their engine go into self destruct mode. How must they feel about this time?

[640bhpV10]

I disagree with the TA being a high workload car. It does everything I command it to do. When I drive it like shit, it is not the vehicle's fault. That driver was terrible, he couldn't even handle the BMW M4 automatic on the same track. The BMW M4 is not a "high workload" car, either, lol. Watch his other videos, he consistently turns in too early, then has to correct mid-turn. He also doesn't brake nearly hard enough, and seems to trail brake (due to correcting his steering). Just poor driving, period. Until the Z06 video comes out, we do not know if it is the same driver.

https://youtu.be/vkqDm4UMG5A

Tony

I don't think the Viper is a high work-load car compared to anything from the mid-2000s or before, but compared to things made in the last 5 years - it is. Really just because it has a manual transmission and no PTM or equivalent. That's really it! Watch the other videos in the Lightning Lap challenge from 2014. The Viper and GTR ran within 0.4 sec on the track, but it's remarkable how different the drivers look while running the lap (I'll admit - different drivers). Having to manage traction with 3300 lbs and ~640 bhp is no small feat (the GenV is far better at this than I would have expected), plus there are almost no cars left with 600+ bhp and a manual trans (just the Z06 and it has rev-matching, etc).

I bet the Z06 in this test also had an 8-speed auto. These days the robotic cars have a lot of advantages for running fast laps and they require so much less thinking and effort than their analogue equivalent. Doesn't mean that the Viper is a handful to run on the track, but their is certainly more that the driver has to manage compared to the McLaren 650S, C7 Z06, 911 GT3, 911 Turbo, anything from Ferrari, etc.

Buying a Viper means that we have different expectations and demands for our sports/track car. We WANT to do these driver tasks. I LOVE the fact that the GenV is still so analogue with few aids, it's how things should be in my mind.

But many modern buyers want fast and easy - and those traits really work to those cars advantage when an average driver jumps in for 5-6 laps and has to set a best time.

-Nick

[Redsled]

Not all cars were tested on the same day, by the same driver. I've passed a lot of cars over they years that should have left me in the dust. Unless it's the same day, same driver the lap times are meaningless to me.

Exactly.

[640bhpV10]

Tony,

I don't think the drivers are the same in both of those videos. I disagree, the BMW M4 is a hand full to drive, evidenced by this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM

I couldn't resist. :t0135:

You're right - different drivers.

Viper TA: Aaron Robinson
BMW M4 - KC Colwell.

None of these guys are very experienced with the track or seriously fast cars.

-Nick

[Sub Driver]

I don't think the Viper is a high work-load car compared to anything from the mid-2000s or before, but compared to things made in the last 5 years - it is. Really just because it has a manual transmission and no PTM or equivalent. That's really it! Watch the other videos in the Lightning Lap challenge from 2014. The Viper and GTR ran within 0.4 sec on the track, but it's remarkable how different the drivers look while running the lap (I'll admit - different drivers). Having to manage traction with 3300 lbs and ~640 bhp is no small feat (the GenV is far better at this than I would have expected), plus there are almost no cars left with 600+ bhp and a manual trans (just the Z06 and it has rev-matching, etc).

I bet the Z06 in this test also had an 8-speed auto. These days the robotic cars have a lot of advantages for running fast laps and they require so much less thinking and effort than their analogue equivalent. Doesn't mean that the Viper is a handful to run on the track, but their is certainly more that the driver has to manage compared to the McLaren 650S, C7 Z06, 911 GT3, 911 Turbo, anything from Ferrari, etc.

Buying a Viper means that we have different expectations and demands for our sports/track car. We WANT to do these driver tasks. I LOVE the fact that the GenV is still so analogue with few aids, it's how things should be in my mind.

But many modern buyers want fast and easy - and those traits really work to those cars advantage when an average driver jumps in for 5-6 laps and has to set a best time.

-Nick
The z06 was a 7 speed manual.

[Rapidrezults]

Wasn't the track repaved recently? Also those times are a culmination over time. Not all cars were tested on the same day, by the same driver. I've passed a lot of cars over they years that should have left me in the dust. Unless it's the same day, same driver the lap times are meaningless to me.

Agreed. At least the GT3, Huracan, 650S and Z06 were all tested on the same day...interesting to see how far back the GT3 ended up. This board has so little activity that I had to find something to stir up some controversy. I'm loosing my mind waiting for this damn ACR to get here. The TA was tested with the new repave BTW. Not that it matters anyway.

[640bhpV10]

Well....still has PTM and rev matching :)

-Nick

[Nine Ball]

You're right - different drivers.

Viper TA: Aaron Robinson
BMW M4 - KC Colwell.

None of these guys are very experienced with the track or seriously fast cars.

-Nick

Ooops, here is the same guy in the TA, driving the SLOWER BMW 235i. And driving it even worse than the M4...

https://youtu.be/ggf0pIdvILA

Nice windshield wipers. Watch how well he gets around the corner at 1:32 in. LOL

[640bhpV10]

Ooops, here is the same guy in the TA, driving the SLOWER BMW 235i. And driving it even worse than the M4...

https://youtu.be/ggf0pIdvILA

Nice windshield wipers. Watch how well he gets around the corner at 1:32 in. LOL

Nice!

I like all the sound edits for language as he misses apexes...a lot of sound edits! :)

-Nick

[Nine Ball]

Nice!

I like all the sound edits for language as he misses apexes...a lot of sound edits! :)

-Nick

The funny part is that this video was originally hosted on the C&D channel. It had all sorts of angry BMW owner comments, telling him how bad he sucked at driving. They must have deleted the video, it no longer shows up on their channel. LOL

[TrackAire]

Since drivers talent is so important, why can't C&D just allow the manufacturers to send in their driver of choice if they want to?

At the 45 second mark of the TA's lap, should the driver actually be shifting into 5th gear there? I have not driven VIR, but it really doesn't sound like he ever got near the red line anywhere on that track. I would also like to see the drivers notes as to what the hot tire pressures were at. If the tire pressures are off, that is an easy 3 seconds per lap penalty.

Lastly, it has to be same day and and at least at the same part of the day (most tracks have measurable changes before noon and after noon). If I'm not mistaken, I saw rain drops on that TA's windshield. At this level of performance, all these parameters effect times way more than when tracking a 160 hp econobox.

Congrats to the C7, hopefully this will push SRT to send a new ACR Extreme to VIR and set a new production car record.

[7TH_SIGN]

Not surprised since it is C&D. Haven't they also preferred the Vette over the Viper?

[ViperDC]

Just read through that thread. Some real funny stuff. Just a few weeks ago when the ACR launched and they were nervous, it was all "oh well the Corvette has better creature comforts, MPG, blah blah blah." Now that they are bolstered by this VIR time, it's back to being a certified race car with several people saying it could be close to/beat the Porsche 918 Nurburging time.

Hilarious.

[ViperSmith]

There is no doubt the Z06 is fast. Sadly, you'll be fast for a lap or two then be limping along.

A one hit wonder, much like the 918 for getting a single hero lap in then panting along. But, thats what the average Vet buyer wants, something he can point to, to say how fast his car is driven by someone else.

[ACR08]

Well, I think it's great an American car did so well. Long live the rivalry. If I could own both cars I would, but since I can have only one there is no question.

You have to hand it to the Gen IV ACR. It's much older than all the others and still hanging tough.

I'm glad to see the Z07 was so close to the 918. I now think the new ACR has a real chance at beating the 918. I'm sure it will take down the Z07.

I also agree that a better test would be multiple laps. I'm more interested in owning a car that can run a 20 minute session and be fast the whole time. I remember when the 2013 Mustang GT500 and Comaro ZL1 went head to head. The GT500 had the fastest lap time because of its huge horse power but each lap it got slower because of brake fade. The ZL1 was constant and would ultimately beat the GT500 after only a few laps. It showed that the ZL1 was the real track car. Being a Mustang guy, I was very disappointed in Ford for not designing a better brakes system.

I was also surprised by the GT3 times. Not a very fast time for a very expensive track car that so many people rave about.

[darbgnik]

Just read through that thread. Some real funny stuff. Just a few weeks ago when the ACR launched and they were nervous, it was all "oh well the Corvette has better creature comforts, MPG, blah blah blah." Now that they are bolstered by this VIR time, it's back to being a certified race car with several people saying it could be close to/beat the Porsche 918 Nurburging time.

Hilarious.

Yup, there's some seriously high hopes over there again.

We all knew the new Z06 was gonna be fast, especially for one lap. We all knew beforehand the Vettes limits were more easily attainable than the Viper, isn't that why we bought one? I'm not surprised less-than-racer-talent drivers can go quick in it, didn't expect it to be that quick, but quick.

I've been waiting since the Z06 came out for Randy Pobst to test it at Laguna, and see what's what, and am still curious of the outcome. I mean, that car has been out for an eternity and Randy can't get his hands on one? Really?

I'd still be leery of buying a car with cooling issues for a dedicated track car, but if it's fast for a hero lap, I can appreciate it for what it is, and continue beating on my old low tech, low MPG Viper.

[Vprbite]

Ooops, here is the same guy in the TA, driving the SLOWER BMW 235i. And driving it even worse than the M4...

https://youtu.be/ggf0pIdvILA

Nice windshield wipers. Watch how well he gets around the corner at 1:32 in. LOL


Ha! Shows what you know. He turned the wipers on because it reduces drag when they are fully upright. Every true track rat knows that. And, between 40 seconds and about 1:10 he technically got paid a ground crew wage for the grass he was mowing.

I honestly think I could feel his fear coming through in the video. He just did not look like a confident driver at all.

[7TH_SIGN]

I'm surprised with how many Corvettes are manufactured and on the road that they were able to still verify that the one they were testing was the one that crossed the finish line. :very_drunk:

[Russ Oasis]

They should use a driver who is a competitor in a Viper racing series if they are going to publish the results everywhere. I think the TA could have lapped considerably quicker than it did.

[Darius]

When I'm lapping my TA I don't make any sudden jerky movements in the steering wheel. That guy who did the lighting lap looked like he was in a boxing match with the steering wheel.

[USCDOC]

Too bad they didn't use a three lap aggregate total....

Too bad they weren't scientific about it all to add legitimacy... Should have been same driver in all cars... Lame... Love the rivalry, but come on C&D don't waste our time. If they had all different hot chicks drive the cars, then I'd probably have... A. Watched all the videos twice, B. Given Vette benefit of the doubt, C. Started buying Tommy Bahama shirts In anticipation of my new ZO6.... Ok maybe not C

[Stealth]

Not a chance that the C7Z is close to the 918 with a great driver. Further, Viper TA aside, the delta between the C7Z and the 991 GT3 is also hard to believe. Finally, as a driver of HPDEs in many cars and 1000cc sport bikes, I thought the video linked above of the Viper TA lap generating the LL Time was atrocious. Maybe it was a practice lap? The Driver was very poor--at least in that video.

[allans]

I have a ZO6/ZO7 and there is no denying it is a very capable car. It has recorded 1.46G's on Road Atlanta and is easier to drive fast than my 2010 ACR was. BUT, I too have had the limp mode issues in any weather above 85 deg due to the conservative programming of the ECU to preserve the drivetrain for the 5/100 warranty. Supposedly the 2016's are more liberally tuned now that GM (and unfortunately Dodge too) has reduced the power train to 5/60. That being said, my 2016 ACR Extreme will be here hopefully sooner than later. I'm keeping the ZO6 for around town/mountain drives as it is unmatched in its ability to blend speed with creature comforts such as removable roof, cooled seats, and a great stereo. The ACR and ZO6 are both great cars in my book, albeit, with slightly different design goals. The saying " the ZO6 is a great road car that you can take to the track and the ACR is an amazing track car that you can drive on the street" rings very true to me.

Ted, Glad to see you have ordered a new ACR. What options, color, Dealer ? Mine is an Extreme, no options, Competition Blue, Woodhouse. Best, Allan

[Zybane]

That T/A 1.0 time is old and done with a non-pro driver before the track was modified. Not really comparable to the new Z06 time.

[BLUETA#1]

Here is video of that TA lap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2NiOeoHZ1I

It's not the cleanest lap, but the Viper is a high workload car. Can't expect the typical driver (even experienced ones) to run an ideal lap after only 5-6 tries. Thats part of the appeal of the car...getting the most out of it is a long term project. :)

Plus, with the Z06's extreme aero, ceramic brakes, and stickier rubber - we need the ACR to take it down on a track like VIR. I was hoping that it would be part of the Lightning Lap line-up for 2015, but I guess were not so lucky (maybe because it is a 2016 MY car?). Plus, like Darius said, it was a different year with potentially different pavement.

At least an American car outran the McLaren 650S (!) and Huracan.

-Nick

FYI,…that lap SUCKED. Horrible driving. I have so many laps on that track…I was bummed by the 4th corner of the video.

[Leadfoot]

Ted, Glad to see you have ordered a new ACR. What options, color, Dealer ? Mine is an Extreme, no options, Competition Blue, Woodhouse. Best, Allan

Hey Allan!

I'm surprised you ordered one! When are you going to find the time to track it between the 991 GT3 and GT3RS?!?!

Great minds think alike!! Competition blue, Extreme aero, interior carbon. Got it from Palmer. Concierge says Oct production, Oct 20 ship date--I've been told not to get my hopes up on that one!

We are doing Road Atlanta Sept 26-27, Oct 17-18, and Nov 21-22. Are you coming out at all?

Hope to see you soon!

[Bruce H.]

I've tracked my '14 T/A with a very fast and seasoned track buddy in his '15 Z06 M7 at both Mosport and Road America, and the base Z06 really is an outstanding performer and a really well-rounded package. The car deserves all the praise it gets. The problem is when pushed towards its limit by a very capable driver where the cooling system becomes unable to keep temps in a safe range. The LL format doesn't push cars to that point during the recording of the hot lap, which is just the second lap following a warm-up lap, and most owners will never push it hard enough on the street or track to be an issue for them either. But my buddy found that it will run dangerous temps trying to run within a couple of seconds of the similarly driven T/A, and I suspect the Z07 version in this test will over-heat that much quicker with the higher loads that it will create.

We're all hoping GM figures out cooling solutions for all versions of the C7. Another track friend is going through a GM buy-back with his C7 Z51 M7 due to constant over-heating and parts failure on his car every time he tracks it because they have no solutions yet, and GM even advised him not to buy the Z06 because of over-heating on that model also when tracked aggressively. The T/A fortunately runs extremely fast, cool and reliably all day, even in hot weather, and that makes it a particularly good choice for those who want that very unique brand of track performance...and you'll never read about that in the pages of Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and other mags of that type.

SRT can't be praised enough for their commitment to designing, building and stress testing the Viper T/A to run out front lap after lap, session after session, and day after day. There's not many cars that can do that.

Bruce

[VENOM V]

I've tracked my '14 T/A with a very fast and seasoned track buddy in his '15 Z06 M7 at both Mosport and Road America, and the base Z06 really is an outstanding performer and a really well-rounded package. The car deserves all the praise it gets. The problem is when pushed towards its limit by a very capable driver where the cooling system becomes unable to keep temps in a safe range. The LL format doesn't push cars to that point during the recording of the hot lap, which is just the second lap following a warm-up lap, and most owners will never push it hard enough on the street or track to be an issue for them either. But my buddy found that it will run dangerous temps trying to run within a couple of seconds of the similarly driven T/A, and I suspect the Z07 version in this test will over-heat that much quicker with the higher loads that it will create.

We're all hoping GM figures out cooling solutions for all versions of the C7. Another track friend is going through a GM buy-back with his C7 Z51 M7 due to constant over-heating and parts failure on his car every time he tracks it because they have no solutions yet, and GM even advised him not to buy the Z06 because of over-heating on that model also when tracked aggressively. The T/A fortunately runs extremely fast, cool and reliably all day, even in hot weather, and that makes it a particularly good choice for those who want that very unique brand of track performance...and you'll never read about that in the pages of Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and other mags of that type.

SRT can't be praised enough for their commitment to designing, building and stress testing the Viper T/A to run out front lap after lap, session after session, and day after day. There's not many cars that can do that.

Bruce

Amen, brother Bruce. This mirrors my experience tracking against the C7 Z06 at Laguna Seca which went into limp mode at 267 F coolant and 309 F oil.

My best friend also just bought a C7 Z06 and is a faaaaast driver. He hasn't been able to track it yet. Former GT3 Cup racer. He however knows it's not track worthy until he solves the cooling issue. If anyone hears of a proven aftermarket cooling solution let me know, he's looking for one. His goal is to give me a good run in it against my Gen V ACR. He's gonna need more than a good oil cooler to catch me, haha :drive:

[donk_316]

I was going to troll C&D on Twitter over this but their background pic is a C7 vette... Wow.

[Bruce H.]

His goal is to give me a good run in it against my Gen V ACR. He's gonna need more than a good oil cooler to catch me, haha :drive:Hey Todd, I hope he at least got the Z07 package as he's definitely going to need all the stick and brake he can get!

[VENOM V]

Hey Todd, I hope he at least got the Z07 package as he's definitely going to need all the stick and brake he can get!

Haha, yes it's got all the bells and whistles. It should be a good race, last time he tracked my Camaro with me, he turned the faster lap. However we tracked identically prepped Mustangs the other day and I just edged him. So I would say we are about the same level of skill. Which is why this ACR Vs. C7 ZO6 battle is gonna be so fun!

[Darius]

Haha, yes it's got all the bells and whistles. It should be a good race, last time he tracked my Camaro with me, he turned the faster lap. However we tracked identically prepped Mustangs the other day and I just edged him. So I would say we are about the same level of skill. Which is why this ACR Vs. C7 ZO6 battle is gonna be so fun!

You should have talked him out of it! Some friend you are! lol

[lmcgrew79]

This track configuration doesnt get ran all that often maybe 2-3 times a year, ive been lucky to run it once a year for the last 5 years they generally do one day full and one day grand. For those that dont know these times are very impressive, my best on that track is a 2.50:68 on the old surface in my modded 08 viper and these are hpde's where its very hard to get a clean lap at 4.1 miles. The one we go to is held in november and for the last 3 years its been pretty cold generally the around the last few weeks vir is open. Ill be there again this year with the TA and ill see what it can do on slicks. The reason c&d dont use pro drivers is there theory is basically its what a normal track guy can get out of car. Normal being these guys have the track to them self armed with fresh tires data and engineers from the manufactures, and there only goal is to go out and try to get fast lap times, how horrible would that be? If anyone wants join its a monday and tuesday event nov 9th and 10th and ran by trackdaze.

[ViperJon]

That still leaves a ton of variables regarding driver skill levels.
I refuse to believe a 200 lb heavier car like the Z06 with five more HP can put five seconds on a TA on the same course with equal drivers.

[Snakebit10]

The Automotive press knows this is a resurfaced track and they know all the variables that can skew data and perceptions yet they still print this misleading stuff. The controversy it causes gets people talking so why let things like facts get in the way.

[Nine Ball]

The reason c&d dont use pro drivers is there theory is basically its what a normal track guy can get out of car. Normal being these guys have the track to them self armed with fresh tires data and engineers from the manufactures, and there only goal is to go out and try to get fast lap times, how horrible would that be?

I'd agree with that philosophy, had cars stayed under 300hp. Normal drivers with bad habits can barely keep a 400hp Camaro on the track. When street cars started exceeding pro race cars in power, they should have made the change to experienced drivers. They do not necessarily need "pro" drivers, but something better than the hack job guys that can't nail an apex, or are scared to use the brakes too hard. We would really be more interested in seeing results from consistent, talented drivers.


The Automotive press knows this is a resurfaced track and they know all the variables that can skew data and perceptions yet they still print this misleading stuff. The controversy it causes gets people talking so why let things like facts get in the way.

Agreed on the drama, it sells copies. But, the track was resurfaced prior to the 2014 Lightning Lap, so all the cars on that list ran on the same course.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

One major flaw is that they are presenting the data as if it is super scientific yet don't record or quantify the largest variable of them all - the driver (also atmospheric conditions, etc). At least have 3 or more drivers take each car for a lap (multiple would be ideal) and average the results.

Since time is money this would likely never happen. The magazine will still sell and it's cheaper just to do one lap each. To try to correct for errors would be too complicated and too expensive.

[Snakebit10]

Agreed on the drama, it sells copies. But, the track was resurfaced prior to the 2014 Lightning Lap, so all the cars on that list ran on the same course.[/COLOR]

So the Z07 and the TA ran on the new surface? If so then my point is moot between the two. I'd still like to see Pobst or Lally run both TA and Z07 on this track same day same time just to see the real gap.

[serpent]

That still leaves a ton of variables regarding driver skill levels.
I refuse to believe a 200 lb heavier car like the Z06 with five more HP can put five seconds on a TA on the same course with equal drivers.
I'm willing to bet the C7Z has better tires and not only that, it was dialed in for that course by the GM engineers. I am not loyal to any brand but if anyone is good at sending in ringers or factory modified cars, its GM. They did this with a "recalibrated" c7z when it got it;s butt whooped by a nismo GTR. GM came back a month later with a "realigned" c7z and finally beat the GTR. Not to mention the times the z28 was putting down (faster than a Gen IV ACR?) yea right.
Then the truth comes out when they do laps at Laguna Seca which is almost 4 seconds slower than an ACR.

I've learned to not take Lightning Lap seriously, and for the c7z to be 1.5 seconds away from an awd 88x+hp hybrid supercar, yea fucking right. I know these are different courses which suits the strengths of each individual car. So now I'm expecting the c7z to lap LS in the 1:31.xx, thats within 2 seconds off the 918's time.

[ViperSmith]

Still find it interesting no rag has taken the Z06 to Laguna Seca with a pro diver yet.

[Rapidrezults]

Still find it interesting no rag has taken the Z06 to Laguna Seca with a pro diver yet.

It's coming....I'm waiting for the new GT350R, ACR and Z06 tests.

[mblgjr]

It's coming....I'm waiting for the new GT350R, Hellcat and Z28 tests.

This would make a bit more sense.

New FGT/ACR/Z06(7) should be a good match up.

[serpent]

This would make a bit more sense.

New FGT/ACR/Z06(7) should be a good match up.
While I love the Viper, I hope the Ford GT can take on the hyper cars. I know I'm dreaming, but if ford really wants to brag about having one of the best power to weight ratios, this car should be a beast. In before "its just a v6 crowd".

[Rapidrezults]

This would make a bit more sense.

New FGT/ACR/Z06(7) should be a good match up.

Oh absolutely as a matchup. I just want to see what the new GT350R will run at Laguna. For the price, it might just be a great little track car for those without a 100+k budget.

[TCurtner]

Wasn't the track repaved recently? Also those times are a culmination over time. Not all cars were tested on the same day, by the same driver. I've passed a lot of cars over they years that should have left me in the dust. Unless it's the same day, same driver the lap times are meaningless to me.

PRECISELY. No way all variables are contained here.
:rolleyes::cool::eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:

These silly tests are exactly that - silly...they only give the readers a ballpark idea of what a car can do. +- 10 seconds probably!

[Stealth]

What is a good non-pro driver time at VIR in a TA Viper on the LL track configuration? Is the 2:49.9 a good time? The video posted looked like sloppy, bad driving.

[lmcgrew79]

Yes its a good time.

[Bruce H.]

I wonder if LL runs the lesser used Grand Course to make their results more difficult to compare. I've run VIR with at least 3 different groups and never run that configuration.

I've found that my stock '14 T/A is a second or two quicker around a high speed track than the current 991 Gen 911 Turbo S in stock trim with P-Zero tires when similarly driven, and about the same when that same 911 TS is run on lighter weight wheels shod with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires. EVO is really the only auto mag that I trust to do a truly comparable track review, and they've just done one for the new 911 GT3-RS that I'm looking forward to dicing it up with when they start hitting the track next season. The new GT3-RS achieved the same lap times as the 911 TS, with the extra power, grip and at the limit handling compensating for its additional weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONt8wxKHbBI&list=TL9-6ycuNrrf0xMzA5MjAxNQ

And the revealing part for me is that those 911 times were just 1 second behind the Porsche 918! And since I've run neck and neck with the 911 TS on MPSC2's then that tells me that the T/A would also be about a second behind the 918 as the Z07 did in this LL comparo. So it stands to reason that the T/A and Z07 are going to be as close to even as one could find, and my experience recently with a track buddy in his regular Z06 also supports that opinion.

Individual track layouts will surely favor one car over another, and my sense is that the Z06/07 with PTM, magnetic dampers, E-Diff, and rev matching would have an advantage on tighter tracks with lots of corners, and the T/A would have the advantage on the higher speed tracks like Road Atlanta, Road America, VIR (Full) and Mosport.

I'm curious if any T/A owners that drive at an advanced and aggressive level have found any of the other fast track day cars to be quicker when similarly driven. Have any Z07's made you their bitch?

[serpent]

Check out the fastest laps website, Laguna Seca. General Motor Trend (or general motors trend) have a c7z clocking a lap at 1:30.8
Not sure if its true, but a lap time that low needs to be verifiable with a video at the very least.

[VENOM V]

Check out the fastest laps website, Laguna Seca. General Motor Trend (or general motors trend) have a c7z clocking a lap at 1:30.8
Not sure if its true, but a lap time that low needs to be verifiable with a video at the very least.

Seriously doubt that is legit

[Snakebit10]

Check out the fastest laps website, Laguna Seca. General Motor Trend (or general motors trend) have a c7z clocking a lap at 1:30.8
Not sure if its true, but a lap time that low needs to be verifiable with a video at the very least.

Interesting. 1:30.xx is what a TA did with slicks on. That time is also on the P1 and 918 level. Sounds too good to be true from a bone stock down to the tires, filters etc C7Z.

[Bruce H.]

I think a great question might be whether we should care what any of these cars are capable of during a single "hot" lap when we know some are designed to run that single hero lap time before falling on their face soon after? Aren't we letting ourselves be tricked by manufacturers and the automotive media that design and test these cars to simply run that one all-important hero lap as opposed to the full sessions track enthusiast buyers will?

Are buyers to blame when the vast majority will never track them, yet place such importance on track results? Have manufacturers and journalists conspired to suck us in with elaborate tests that are meaningless to buyers that don't track, and misleading to those who do? Can you imagine how you would feel if you were searching for a car to track aggressively, bought one that the rags showed was at the top of the fast list, and then found it couldn't survive a session when run aggressively? This is exactly what is happening!

Can we change the game to get track focused cars to be tested as their buyers will...in minimum 20 minute sessions? Those real world rankings will look a little different than the fantasy world single hot lap results we have now. I'd settle for testing notes that would record things like brake fade from boiled fluid and pads, boiled over power steering fluid, high oil and coolant temps that may or may not have pulled power, excessive brake pad wear caused by aggressive traction and stability intervention, unusually fast tire wear, mechanical failures, ect. That's the stuff that matters a lot more to track rats than whether they'll make the Porsche 918 their bitch at the next lapping day.

Buyer beware.



Check out the fastest laps website, Laguna Seca. General Motor Trend (or general motors trend) have a c7z clocking a lap at 1:30.8
Not sure if its true, but a lap time that low needs to be verifiable with a video at the very least.

[ViperJon]

I think a great question might be whether we should care what any of these cars are capable of during a single "hot" lap when we know some are designed to run that single hero lap time before falling on their face soon after?

Good point but can't suddenly say one lap time doesn't matter anymore when the Viper made it's bones setting one lap record times at Laguna and Nurburgring.

[Bruce H.]

Pretty sure it backed up that ability in a variety of ways, including being able to run 20 minute sessions without issues.

The T/A set the record at LS while I was shopping for a track-worthy car, and while the Motor Trend ZR1 vs T/A comparo helped focus my attention it wasn't until I heard Randy's unpublished comments that I put one in my garage. The published details were things like the T/A's odd brake pedal feel, lack of CCB stopping power, and the unsettled rear that you have to learn to trust (classic Motor Trend bias)...not how it ran fast and trouble-free endlessly and the ZR1 could only do the one fast lap before he started over-heating it. I have yet to dice it up with a ZR1 on track, but even if i's owner is able to out-drives me I figure I'll probably out-last it!

Track rats just need fuller disclosure than what most rags provide.

[Snakebit10]

I don't think the mags are geared for the track rats or else it would be written differently and the testing would be more comprehensive. Most people just want to hear a fast lap time. They really don't care/understand anything about variables etc that's why the mags are written that way imho.

[ViperSmith]

The rags are selling to the cars and coffee crowd, those that "want to buy the best" but never track it, so they can brag how fast it is.

While a hero lap is an interesting data point, it is useless to the track rat - if you over heat or run out of batteries after 3 laps, what is the point?

[Bruce H.]

I don't think the mags are geared for the track rats or else it would be written differently and the testing would be more comprehensive. Most people just want to hear a fast lap time. They really don't care/understand anything about variables etc that's why the mags are written that way imho.

And the ranking order of the cars based on those lap times. It's like the magazines are the marketing arm of the manufacturer's, helping sell cars rather than improve them with unbiased reporting of deficiencies discovered during testing. Fortunately you learn a lot when tracking your car with a lot of others, and that's when you discover the extent that many have to be modified to stand up on the track.

[VENOM V]

Fastest Laps' moderator is going to delete the Z06's time, there is no verifiable reference. It's bogus, just like I thought.

[Nine Ball]

The Laguna Seca time is bogus. I asked Randy, he confirmed it. The second part of his response will cause some emotions.


http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Misc/c7z-ls.jpg

[TrackAire]

Video proof of said record laps or it didn't happen. At least with a video, you can actually see the exact course they're running and time it yourself I you have any doubts.

The VIR Lightning Lap is becoming a joke and not worth discussing times if there is not an apple to apple comparison. Which course they ran, old track or repave, temperature/weather, etc?....a lot of this is not clear in my eyes.

And lastly, I know most of us are not pro drivers, but looking at some of the laps and in car videos the C&D magazine drivers ran, I would highly suggest putting in a pro driver for tests like these. As soon as power exceeds 500 hp, the capability of most non pro drivers is nowhere near the talent needed to extract what a car of that performance can do, regardless of the brand.

[VENOM V]

The Laguna Seca time is bogus. I asked Randy, he confirmed it. The second part of his response will cause some emotions.


http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Misc/c7z-ls.jpg

Lol :dancingman:

[Rapidrezults]

Now this is getting juicy...the car wouldn't run right, we can only assume it's the overheating...this begs the question, are they going to just choose to omit this test all together or will they expose the raw truth?

[Snakebit10]

And the ranking order of the cars based on those lap times. It's like the magazines are the marketing arm of the manufacturer's, helping sell cars rather than improve them with unbiased reporting of deficiencies discovered during testing. Fortunately you learn a lot when tracking your car with a lot of others, and that's when you discover the extent that many have to be modified to stand up on the track.

Agreed. Plus the possible revenue from car company wanting a good review would dry up if they actually did unbiased testing and actually told the whole truth about each car.

Lets see if they will indeed print the whole truth about the fever the Z0sicks gets at the thought of anything over 1 lap and place it where it belongs in the comparo's. A track car that can't track is like a cat that can't mouse. Useless for its intended purpose.

[Voice of Reason]

ROFL at Randy's response. He really seems to be getting tired of the issues he's having with Corvettes.

[ironpeddler]

juicy indeed.

[Bill Pemberton]

Seems time to rename it the Corvette Z oh Sick !!

[ViperSmith]

I have to suspect that is more than the first time MT has tried to get Randy to run the Z06 out there, with as long as it has been out so far. I cannot believe MT didn't have the Z06 out there way back earlier this year.

Strange they aren't doing write ups about the Z06's failures like that, eh?

[slovenom]

Ouch!!!!

[Tiago]

Lmfao!!!