9.0 & 10.0 Liter Viper

[ACRucrazy]

I was looking for an old thread and instead bumping a buried post in an arguing thread I figured I would start a fresh one. Any one hear anything new?


Here is the 9.0L block. Dick Winkles also said they are also working on a 10L block.

850HP NA should not be a problem

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/skyy406/Viper%20Plant/IMG_0937_zpsmuteqb8w.jpg

[Bruce H.]

Not a chance...directly from Dodge ;)

[01sapphirebob]

I was speaking with Scott from prefix at MOPAR Nats back in August when he brought the targa down and he mentioned they are currently working on the 9.0 block. It will be available through ARROW when finished. Im assuming itll kinda be like how the stage II package is being done now. A few select dealers can sell/install. But it is coming. :)

[ACRucrazy]

Not a chance

Negative nancy. ;)


I was speaking with Scott from prefix at MOPAR Nats back in August when he brought the targa down and he mentioned they are currently working on the 9.0 block. It will be available through ARROW when finished. Im assuming itll kinda be like how the stage II package is being done now. A few select dealers can sell/install. But it is coming. :)

That has been my hope for the last few months..

[Voice of Reason]

Any guesses if our heads will bolt right up to it? I'm not sure what they're doing to get the increased size and if it will require specific heads/intake or not.

[KB Viper]

i would be all over that!

[J TNT]

Google 543 Viper V 10 ;)

[KB Viper]

i would love this motor in my car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWXbsyYR-8g

[J TNT]

Yep that's it !!! ^^^^^^^ ;)

[Aspirations57]

HOLY Smoke!!!! Is there any time frame on when this engine will be available to the public?

[Stealth]

Nice to see this work! That engine in the video is a hodge-podge of Gens and not a substitute for OEM drivability.

With CAFE and low demand, I would guess (and only a guess) that Dodge/FCA will not offer a larger OEM N/A motor than the current Gen V motor for subsequent Gens. I suspect that Forced-Induction is more likely (Twin Turbos would be my preference). I have had entire larger displacement motors built and placed my cars before and will not do it again. Reliability is not the same as OEM, it is too hard to find people to work on it and parts, and difficult or impossible to smog here in California.

Fortunately for us, we have an awesome Gen V car now (still under-appreciated and underrated by the automotive community and public IMO) and I doubt Dodge/FCA will want to take a step back on future products. :United_States:

[Coloviper]

Fully understand on the OEM aspect. Been there and done that with Tuners in the past, even on new vehicles and it is not the same. My new vehicles with be factory hopped. However isn't a 9L or 10L Dodge motor a step forward from an 8.4L? Ha! Ha! Would love the 10L just so you can see a double digit L motor in a new car.

By the way the CAFE on a Viper line does not even touch noise level. On a 500/year run, what is the worst they can do, fine them? Pass the fine over on the consumer and pump it up already. After the EPA released toxicity into the streams here in Colorado, me thinks they can walk into the ocean until their heads float.

[Disturbed]

I tried to have a 10.0L TT V10 built once. It didn't end well.

[kdaviper]

Nice to see this work! That engine in the video is a hodge-podge of Gens and not a substitute for OEM drivability.

With CAFE and low demand, I would guess (and only a guess) that Dodge/FCA will not offer a larger OEM N/A motor than the current Gen V motor for subsequent Gens. I suspect that Forced-Induction is more likely (Twin Turbos would be my preference). I have had entire larger displacement motors built and placed my cars before and will not do it again. Reliability is not the same as OEM, it is too hard to find people to work on it and parts, and difficult or impossible to smog here in California.

Fortunately for us, we have an awesome Gen V car now (still under-appreciated and underrated by the automotive community and public IMO) and I doubt Dodge/FCA will want to take a step back on future products. :United_States:

CAFE? no. CARB, EPA? yes.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

HOLY Smoke!!!! Is there any time frame on when this engine will be available to the public?

We are taking orders RIGHT NOW................ just send a blank, endorsed check made out to Jon Brobst.....................


Note about CAFE: Corp Avg Fuel Econ was not affected at Chrysler, nor at FCA, by the miniscule amount of Viper motors produced annually. If the Viper got 5 MPG it would have a huge guzzler tax, but would not affect CAFE. Total build is virtually invisible to AVG.

[Snakebit10]

Wow. 900hp+ NA spinning to possibly 7200rpm? As impressive as that sounds Im wondering what a monster like this would do with twin snails....

Any reason they just didn't do a G5 motor instead of all 3 gens?

[Murpowa]

So most important question, who will be the first to throw this into an ACR? Haha

[ellowviper]

A couple of old school quips....
1: No replacement for cubic inch displacement
2. Force Induction is historically referred to as "Artificial Displacement"

So all things being equal...it is an interesting Catch-22 to some extent....

[ACRucrazy]

Bump for wanting more liters lol.

[Murpowa]

Is Dick/Arrow still looking to pursue this?

[FLATOUT]

Man you guys have EXCELLENT timing. That's all I will say as of today :)

More info to come soon.

Andy

[Murpowa]

Hot damn! :dancingman:

I could see potential for owners with R28/R29 issues/concerns to say the hell with it and jump on this option.

Looking forward to more details

[2doorrocket]

i would be all over that!

Wish I had some of your disposable income LOL...

[mjorgensen]

Practically on the dyno ;-)

[DADS ACR]

Will the ARH Stage II H&C package on my Gen V fit on this block?

[mjorgensen]

Will the ARH Stage II H&C package on my Gen V fit on this block?

Size increase is from custom billet crank, we have 2 builds planned using the customers existing Arrow H/C packages.

[socal]

I'm guessing 750-800 at the wheels with the 10 liter? Sheesh...

[FLATOUT]

Will the ARH Stage II H&C package on my Gen V fit on this block?

Same block, so yes. Still a bit of work to do but moving well beyond the vapor ware stage.

[GTSilver]

Interested but do we have an estimate regarding power and redline ? Will it be suitable for road race or mostly drag racing.

Thanks
Yousif

[J TNT]

Eta ??? :)

[FLATOUT]

Interested but do we have an estimate regarding power and redline ? Will it be suitable for road race or mostly drag racing.

Thanks
Yousif

Just getting started on this from a functionality stand point so I would think anything said right now would be subject to change.


Eta ??? :)

See above, but if you are seriously interested in adding this to an existing stage 2 Heads and Cam Package or just want a factory 9.0 liter setup with your stock heads and cam it can be done.

Send me an email at

awheeler@viperexchange.com

And I'll add you to the list.

Andy

[ViperTony]

Subscribed! ;)

[ViperGeorge]

What the hell is 10L in Cubic Inches anyway, something like 600+. Holy Cow Batman, that's a lot! It will have the torque of a diesel.

[Arizona Vipers]

So the displacement gain is going to come from mostly increased stroke? Not bore?

[swexlin]

What the hell is 10L in Cubic Inches anyway, something like 600+. Holy Cow Batman, that's a lot! It will have the torque of a diesel.

About 61 ci per liter, so 10L = 610 ci

[Ricketts]

Just getting started on this from a functionality stand point so I would think anything said right now would be subject to change.



See above, but if you are seriously interested in adding this to an existing stage 2 Heads and Cam Package or just want a factory 9.0 liter setup with your stock heads and cam it can be done.

Send me an email at

awheeler@viperexchange.com

And I'll add you to the list.

Andy

Any hope or prayer this could work with GEN II's?

[Murpowa]

ACR E + 9 Liter/Arrow Heads & Cam + PPG Trans = the greatest creation ever?

Where's Junkie when you need him

[Nth Moto]

Any hope or prayer this could work with GEN II's?

There have been tons of engine geometry combinations done with OEM blocks on the Gen II-III platforms ranging from 470 - 588 CID as early as 2005 or so by my recollection. If someone is willing to buy a crankshaft the possibilities are quite open to design something to meet the customer's needs.

[ViperPete]

Awesome!!!!!!!!

[ViperPete]

Whats the rotating assembly gonna run?

30k would be my guess.

[zzmike]

Man you guys have EXCELLENT timing. That's all I will say as of today :)

More info to come soon.

Andy

Quick! Bump the Sledgehammer thread! Maybe we will have excellent timing there as well. Want one sooooo bad.

[docwviper]

Just getting started on this from a functionality stand point so I would think anything said right now would be subject to change.



See above, but if you are seriously interested in adding this to an existing stage 2 Heads and Cam Package or just want a factory 9.0 liter setup with your stock heads and cam it can be done.

Send me an email at

awheeler@viperexchange.com

And I'll add you to the list.

Andy

Email sent. What's the cost?

[Arizona Vipers]

Interested but do we have an estimate regarding power and redline ? Will it be suitable for road race or mostly drag racing.

Thanks
Yousif

With a stroke that long I don't think this would last long in road racing applications.

[FLATOUT]

Lots of great questions, not a lot of great answers just yet. 2017 is going to be a great year, plenty of testing/development going on. 9.0 liter stroker on the factory ECU tuned by Winkles is going to be a sick combo.

[mjorgensen]

Dick ran the configuration with stock exhaust yesterday to make sure all was working as it should mechanically, he should have the package on the dyno with headers today possibly. After that they will teardown and install the Stg2 package for trials so hope to have some info soon. As for pricing we are working those numbers out, cranks are expensive for sure, but won't put this package out of reach for most interested buyers.

[ViperPete]

Can the stock fuel system handle the extra displacement?

[mjorgensen]

Can the stock fuel system handle the extra displacement?

There will be a drop in pump upgrade available..

[ViperPete]

There will be a drop in pump upgrade available..

Man this becoming reality is absolutely amazing. I'll be a player next year in the summer if its available. 10.0L

[NoMorZR1]

Excellent option for those of us that want to stay NA !

[ACRucrazy]

Dick ran the configuration with stock exhaust yesterday to make sure all was working as it should mechanically, he should have the package on the dyno with headers today possibly. After that they will teardown and install the Stg2 package for trials so hope to have some info soon. As for pricing we are working those numbers out, cranks are expensive for sure, but won't put this package out of reach for most interested buyers.

Dick will be the savior of the Viper LOL.

Man... 9.0L Vipers running around... Imagine if the V came out with a 9.0 from the get go...

[ZeeViper]

Oh man....super glad this is coming to fruition

[VIPER BAZ UK]

Chris Jensen is a great guy and Tuner... He did my GenII Roe Blown and built RT/10 here in the UK ....

[mjorgensen]

Great news on the dyno, everything is working as hoped, numbers not approved for posting yet, but you guys should be happy! Has been run with stock exhaust and headers now, they will be working on building the Stg2 version shortly then all numbers will be released along with final pricing for parts.

[J TNT]

Thanks for the update Mark ! :)

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Great news on the dyno, everything is working as hoped, numbers not approved for posting yet, but you guys should be happy! Has been run with stock exhaust and headers now, they will be working on building the Stg2 version shortly then all numbers will be released along with final pricing for parts.

Ok I'll bite, will these motors circumvent the block issues we are seeing with the stock 8.4L? Will there be an option for customers to "trade up" their perfectly good 8.4? Will the powertrain warranty remain intact?

[mjorgensen]

Ok I'll bite, will these motors circumvent the block issues we are seeing with the stock 8.4L? Will there be an option for customers to "trade up" their perfectly good 8.4? Will the powertrain warranty remain intact?


If Arrow does the building they will clean the block again, do not see them trading blocks although you could build it with a G4 block if you like. Once the pricing is in place I will be able to price out complete G4 block builds etc. If you mean the FCA warranty then no would be that answer.

[GTSilver]

If Arrow does the building they will clean the block again, do not see them trading blocks although you could build it with a G4 block if you like. Once the pricing is in place I will be able to price out complete G4 block builds etc. If you mean the FCA warranty then no would be that answer.

Mark may you please elaborate the use for a G4 block what differences does it have with a G5 and what are the benefits of the G4 block over a G5 block ? And to do this conversion what will be the parts needed ? crank, rods, pistons etc and will it be the same compression and what red line ?

Thanks
Yousif

[FLATOUT]

Mark may you please elaborate the use for a G4 block what differences does it have with a G5 and what are the benefits of the G4 block over a G5 block ? And to do this conversion what will be the parts needed ? crank, rods, pistons etc and will it be the same compression and what red line ?

Thanks
Yousif

Hi Yousif,

Gen 3's and 4's are solid castings, where as the Gen V block is a sand casting. Simply rougher castings.


For the guys like yourself that have already done the Heads and Cam package with us this will be a great upgrade without breaking the bank.

[mjorgensen]

Mark may you please elaborate the use for a G4 block what differences does it have with a G5 and what are the benefits of the G4 block over a G5 block ? And to do this conversion what will be the parts needed ? crank, rods, pistons etc and will it be the same compression and what red line ?

Thanks
Yousif

Yousif,

G4 block is the tried and true block that had no issues through it's lifespan so if longevity is a concern because you don't trust the block you have then it's the way to go, but not a necessity. The last few Arrow H/C builds we did were with G4 blocks for this very reason. All your parts will transfer no issues and if you have a good G5 block when swapped you can generally do a G4 block at the same time for about a $1500 upcharge which is not all bad. If the block has damage then not possible.

Redline is not "set" but will not be reduced if possible, I do not have the CR sorry will have to go back and ask, will run on 93 though so likely unchanged significantly.

Package parts are:

Crank
Pistons
Rods
Rod bearings
Main bearings

[FLATOUT]

One other comment. This will be the 9.0 liter, the 10.0 liter will most likely not go into production with the oversized bore (too many water jacket changes would have been necessary to make it work).

[Rocket]

Only 9 liters? - LOL! For reference, as a mopar nut, I always thought the 426 hemi was an elephant - and at ONLY 7 liters - it now looks like more of a mouse - LOL!

[GTSilver]

Hi Yousif,

Gen 3's and 4's are solid castings, where as the Gen V block is a sand casting. Simply rougher castings.

As for the new parts you will be getting the new stroker crank, and rods while reusing the factory Gen V piston as I understand it.

For the guys like yourself that have already done the Heads and Cam package with us this will be a great upgrade without breaking the bank.

Hi Andy,

Thanks of for the info and I'm interested in the package just waiting for more info to decide. Hopefully it will be soon.

Yousif


Yousif,

G4 block is the tried and true block that had no issues through it's lifespan so if longevity is a concern because you don't trust the block you have then it's the way to go, but not a necessity. The last few Arrow H/C builds we did were with G4 blocks for this very reason. All your parts will transfer no issues and if you have a good G5 block when swapped you can generally do a G4 block at the same time for about a $1500 upcharge which is not all bad. If the block has damage then not possible.

Redline is not "set" but will not be reduced if possible, I do not have the CR sorry will have to go back and ask, will run on 93 though so likely unchanged significantly.

Package parts are:

Crank
Pistons
Rods
Rod bearings
Main bearings

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info as well. My only concern is that will it be suitable for road race application as this is my primary use of the viper. I was thinking of adding a dry sump dailey kit for any oil issues and also if this build will have a higher redline or even lighter rotating assembly it'll be a great addition for road racing. I was actually considering of decreasing displacement as this mostly done for race cars to increase redline and hp but with the reduction of torque, never the less its a great time to be a viper owner and glad that Arrow racing is still developing parts of the viper.

Thanks
Yousif

[NoMorZR1]

Patiently waiting on pricing !!!:car-smiley-003:

[Murpowa]

Interesting...Gen V ECU/Arrow running a Gen IV motor. Is that correct?

[supersnake]

Only 9 liters? - LOL! For reference, as a mopar nut, I always thought the 426 hemi was an elephant - and at ONLY 7 liters - it now looks like more of a mouse - LOL!

I'd take the 426 any day over the V10. It is a proven race engine even in stock form. It always will be a elephant

[Viper Specialty]

I will definitely be watching this one and see how it all pans out. Kudos to heading down this path to see where it leads!

My only comment is that I am waiting to see the long term reliability. Big strokers have been done ad nauseum in the past in all generations, and they all have one thing in common: poor rod/stroke ratios resulting short lifespans and accelerated cylinder wall wear... the Viper just doesn't have a high enough deck height to really get a good R/S ratio for the big strokers. If an acceptable solution has been found, they will absolutely have a winner of a package, and it will surely trickle down into all other portions of the market.

[EZ 2B Green]

I will definitely be watching this one and see how it all pans out. Kudos to heading down this path to see where it leads!

My only comment is that I am waiting to see the long term reliability. Big strokers have been done ad nauseum in the past in all generations, and they all have one thing in common: poor rod/stroke ratios resulting short lifespans and accelerated cylinder wall wear... the Viper just doesn't have a high enough deck height to really get a good R/S ratio for the big strokers. If an acceptable solution has been found, they will absolutely have a winner of a package, and it will surely trickle down into all other portions of the market.

Someone check my math, I calculated that going from 8.4 liters to 9.0 liters would require ~0.28 inches of additional stroke. I used a conversion factor of 61 C.I./Liter and a Viper bore of 4.055".
Note: "Flatout" states the factory pistons are reused.

Dan, is this enough to cause the problems you describe?

[Viper Specialty]

Someone check my math, I calculated that going from 8.4 liters to 9.0 liters would require ~0.28 inches of additional stroke. I used a conversion factor of 61 C.I./Liter and a Viper bore of 4.055".

Dan, is this enough to cause the problems you describe?


All depends on rod length used.

Just for reference, 1.75 is considered ideal, with builders generally going for 1.5-1.8.

The stock Viper is about 1.56 [using 6.2 rod length], which is already less than ideal. To get to 9.0L, you need a stroke of 4.250. This stroke will have a R/S ratio of 1.46... which is definitely heading towards troubled ranges. That said, it would probably be fine for quite some time, especially if the rod was lengthened. However... 10.0L? its gonna get dicey to say the least.

[EZ 2B Green]

All depends on rod length used.

Just for reference, 1.75 is considered ideal, with builders generally going for 1.5-1.8.

The stock Viper is about 1.56 [using 6.2 rod length], which is already less than ideal. To get to 9.0L, you need a stroke of 4.250. This stroke will have a R/S ratio of 1.46... which is definitely heading towards troubled ranges. That said, it would probably be fine for quite some time, especially if the rod was lengthened. However... 10.0L? its gonna get dicey to say the least.

So if I am thinking of this correctly, any increase in rod length would have to be added to the 0.28 increase in stroke. Is that correct?

[Viper Specialty]

So if I am thinking of this correctly, any increase in rod length would have to be added to the 0.28 increase in stroke. Is that correct?

Correct. If you lengthen the rod, it helps better the R/S ratio. However, there is more to this. Longer rods will eventually require block clearance. Also, as you increase stroke, you start to shorten piston total height and skirt size. This also accelerates piston/wall wear as is lowers surface contact area. There is an upper limit to all of this.

[EZ 2B Green]

So if the rod is longer and you reuse the stock pistons, then you run out of deck height. Hmmm...

[Camfab]

Something has to give. Longer stroke and stock pistons don't work with stock rods. Sounds like lots of speculation here.

[Arizona Vipers]

Will the powertrain warranty remain intact?


Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. No. LOL. If you install an Arrow computer your warranty is void. How would swapping crankshafts and bore size even come CLOSE to keeping your warranty.
There's no manufacturer now or in the past or in the future that will honer a factory warranty after pulling the engine, disasembling it, replacing it with non-factory parts for a HUGE horsepower increase.

[Camfab]

Something has to give. Longer stroke and stock pistons don't work with stock rods. Sounds like lots of speculation here.
"Correction" I re-read Mark's post stating crank, rods, and pistons are replaced. This now makes sense. However the sound of the thread is misleading to me. This isn't a 9 liter block, it's just a stock block with an upgraded rotating assembly. The positive here I suppose is that Arrow is doing it. I got excited because I figured a new, not f'd up casting had been developed. Yes I'd be interested in a Multi-gen block design that corrected any and all design flaws as well as a higher deck height. I too believe the engine is over square to begin with....

[Viper Specialty]

Something has to give. Longer stroke and stock pistons don't work with stock rods. Sounds like lots of speculation here.

Absolutely, lots of speculation all around without knowing exactly what approach they are taking or what longevity testing has been done.

That said, there is nothing out of the ordinary here Vs. what the aftermarket has been able to do for a decade. Custom cranks, offset grinding, custom rods and pistons... all commonplace. One factor that remains, is that basically anyone who ever built big cube stroker Vipers... doesn't do it anymore. Cars were flashes in the pan, and engines wore themselves out in a hurry. The deck-height is the enemy on this one. We already have pretty long rods/stroke compared to bore size, pretty short compression heights, and the Gen-3+ engines are ALREADY stroker version of the original Gen-1/2 crank spec. There is an upper limit where you cannot increase rod length anymore due to clearances, a ridiculously short compression height, piston dome and ring pack limitations, etc.

Like I said, I am interested to see how this all pans out. If newer tech and crank design justifies looking into these paths, then many will follow. But as it stands, most avoid these types of builds as past experience has been riddled with issues... hence why you don't really see them anymore.

[jasond29]

I don't see what the speculation is. If they are using the stock pistons then we should already be able to calculate the rod length. Short of greatly modifying the block its just going to be a standard stroker motor. I would imagine your going to get the standard problems, piston side load, oil consumption with a byproduct of more power.

[FLATOUT]

I don't see what the speculation is. If they are using the stock pistons then we should already be able to calculate the rod length. Short of greatly modifying the block its just going to be a standard stroker motor. I would imagine your going to get the standard problems, piston side load, oil consumption with a byproduct of more power.

Ignore my comment on the stock pistons. My mistake.

[Dave1968]

So the answer here is "Sledgehammer".

[BlknBlu]

It will still not be enough, folks will want to turbocharge those 9.0 liter motors

Bruce

[Murpowa]

It will still not be enough, folks will want to turbocharge those 9.0 liter motors

Bruce

"The poorest man on Earth is not the one without money but the one without dreams"

[Snakebit10]

/\/\ LOL....Cant wait to see the performance numberrrs...

[38D]

/\/\ LOL....Cant wait to see the performance numberrrs...

Displacement increases are normally quite linear. So a regular 9L should be 690fwhp, and a 9L + H&C around 815fwhp (assuming a 760fwhp H&C number, though I believe the official arrow number is 740)

[txA&M08]

Displacement increases are normally quite linear. So a regular 9L should be 690fwhp, and a 9L + H&C around 815fwhp (assuming a 760fwhp H&C number, though I believe the official arrow number is 740)

Your numbers are a bit off. Vipers consistently make around 0fwhp.

[DZnutz]

Your numbers are a bit off. Vipers consistently make around 0fwhp.

flywheel hp... so... your wrong

[JGK95]

Subscribed!

[ViperPete]

So I had a chance meeting with Mr V10 himself yesterday.

Looks like this upgrade will be a lot more affordable than I initially thought. I can see a whole lot of people doing this upgrade. The only worrying thing for me would be pulling the motor and shipping it to Arrow.
Estimated power gains make sense given the 0.6 liter increase.

Looking forward to the "official" reveal!

[Murpowa]

The only worrying thing for me would be pulling the motor and shipping it to Arrow.


Looking forward to the "official" reveal!

So then the 9.0 blocks will not be made from Gen IV?

ETA on "official" reveal?

[Drlee50]

And what about doing it to a gen 2 block?

[ViperPete]

So then the 9.0 blocks will not be made from Gen IV?

ETA on "official" reveal?

Its not a new block. They clean your old one. Its just a rotating assembly guys. Crank, seals, bearing, pistons, rods...etc.... Might as well have them add a cam while its apart....IMO.

[FLATOUT]

Its not a new block. They clean your old one. Its just a rotating assembly guys. Crank, seals, bearing, pistons, rods...etc.... Might as well have them add a cam while its apart....IMO.

This.

[mjorgensen]

There will not be any more info till after the 1st of the year as the lead on the project is off till then. When he returns the Stg2 package will be assembled and run on the dyno. He also says that the engine will be good for 6300-6400 RPM and should not be a problem for road course work or anything else other than torque management ;-)

[99RT10]

Is this going to be an Arrow only build? Seems to me that it can easily be a DIY package.

[mjorgensen]

Is this going to be an Arrow only build? Seems to me that it can easily be a DIY package.

No you will be able to just buy the parts package if you wish.

[Nambo]

No you will be able to just buy the parts package if you wish.

Definitely interested in this Mark. it would give me some piece of mind on my block and some more HP to boot.

[docwviper]

I'm interested as well. The comment about managing torque and road racing in the same sentence concerns me. We already have a ton of torque, how much more will this push? I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this. I live about 5 hours from arrow and they are now right next to or in the same building as prefix. Might be worth a trip to drop it off for a few weeks to get done.

[mjorgensen]

I'm interested as well. The comment about managing torque and road racing in the same sentence concerns me. We already have a ton of torque, how much more will this push? I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this. I live about 5 hours from arrow and they are now right next to or in the same building as prefix. Might be worth a trip to drop it off for a few weeks to get done.

Was said in jest sorry, no concern and if you have an ACR the added torque would help with throttle rotation!

[Bruce H.]

How did that quote go..."you don't have enough power until you can lay down rubber from one corner to the next"...or something to that effect?

The ability to run the car on a road course at the higher power level and rpms speaks volumes about the quality of this build. I wonder if additional cooling will be part of the requirement for that?

[FLATOUT]

How did that quote go..."you don't have enough power until you can lay down rubber from one corner to the next"...or something to that effect?

The ability to run the car on a road course at the higher power level and rpms speaks volumes about the quality of this build. I wonder if additional cooling will be part of the requirement for that?

I'm sure it will be discussed at length (cooling). So far the development of the Gen V for road course use has followed a pretty nice curve, i.e. stock, then bolton cars, then heads/cam cars, and now stroker motor builds. Definitely learning all along the way.

Looking forward to driving these, and selling them.

Andy

[GTSilver]

How did that quote go..."you don't have enough power until you can lay down rubber from one corner to the next"...or something to that effect?

The ability to run the car on a road course at the higher power level and rpms speaks volumes about the quality of this build. I wonder if additional cooling will be part of the requirement for that?

So far I've had no issues with my H/C viper and its usually used on the road course and where I live its pretty much hot here and track days temp are from 25-35 Celsius and oil temps reach 108 Celsius after 4-5 laps after then I cool down for a lap and continue. Hopefully this new stroker kit will follow as with any bolt on or H/C build and if needed cooling will be addressed as Andy just mentioned earlier. I'm very interested in the package just waiting for more info and testing, however if I decide to go ahead with it I'll also add a dry sump system as a precaution so I don't have to worry about any oil starvation issues and it will help will cooling due to a larger oil tank.

[38D]

How did that quote go..."you don't have enough power until you can lay down rubber from one corner to the next"...or something to that effect?

"If you can leave two black stripe from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower"
Mark Donahue - when talking about the Porsche 917/30, a car with 1600hp and a dry weight all 1750lbs!

[Bruce H.]

GTSilver, love my pic in your avatar...you thief you lol :)


"If you can leave two black stripe from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower"
Mark Donahue - when talking about the Porsche 917/30, a car with 1600hp and a dry weight all 1750lbs!

That's it...must remember that one, thanks.

[GTSilver]

[QUOTE=Bruce H.;265925]GTSilver, love my pic in your avatar...you thief you lol :)

Lol to be honest you have the best pictures out there for a black TA, and all the pics I've got doesn't come close to yours.

[SilveRT8]

Anxious to find out about pricing and final Dyno #

[v10tt]

My math says that if it is the same heads and cam:
733bhp/8.4 = 87.26 hp/cid
At 9 liters = 785 bhp.

[Ricketts]

And what about doing it to a gen 2 block?

Been wondering same thing.


Is this going to be an Arrow only build? Seems to me that it can easily be a DIY package.


No you will be able to just buy the parts package if you wish.

Very NICE!!!

[cashcorn]

any updates..

[mjorgensen]

any updates..


They are very backed up with the move over to Prefix, Dick says may have more info by the end of the week.

[cashcorn]

awesome! this is going to be good..

[Cgav8t0r]

Sub'd

[Lawrenzo]

There are rumors flying that something similar might go in the Demon Challenger.

[Hemibob]

There are rumors flying that something similar might go in the Demon Challenger.

I just heard.....
The Demon is a dodge challenger wide body, track ready car.. No rear seats 335 tires a supercharged V10 viper engine with a rear wheel drive set up..price of 125k

The first of many rumored configurations will here of!

[Mark1107]

A reliable source told me 800 horsepower for the Demon. This same source helped me get my 2014 Stryker Green show car from SRT...

[DADS ACR]

I'd prefer 800HP NA which will be easy with the 9.0L stroker, heads and cams. May need some headers and exhaust but WOW!

I'm in for the stroker when its ready to go. :cool:

I would think the Demon will be a straight line set up, not road racing?

[Murpowa]

I just heard.....
The Demon is a dodge challenger wide body, track ready car.. No rear seats 335 tires a supercharged V10 viper engine with a rear wheel drive set up..price of 125k

The first of many rumored configurations will here of!

335 rears - widebody was required for clearance

Keeping the supercharged 6.2L - will be north of 850 HP. The hellcat motor previously made 850-900 peak HP in development so they know its doable and FCA has dropped too much R & D into it to simply move to another motor configuration for that body style

Initial testing of the demon challenger ran 9.XX's. Will be 'detuned' to stay at 10.0

Will be priced sub 100K



Horsepower wars are alive and well again if you're into 'point and shoot' style cars.

[V10powerr]

love the hellcat and fca taking it to another level - love it

[V10powerr]

the new viper will also use this formula :p0257:

[Snorman]

A supercharged V10 Challenger "track ready" car? That's going to weigh...what? 4600#
http://i.imgur.com/HeWzZv6.gif
S.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

A supercharged V10 Challenger "track ready" car? That's going to weigh...what? 4600#
http://i.imgur.com/HeWzZv6.gif
S.

Literally my favorite movie ever.
Yeah I like the sound of that--- lowering values of the hellcat meaning I may be able to pick one up as a daily.
I went to TX last year to TX2K and watched modded Hellcats running 12s all day, even on spray. You can read all you want about them doing 10s but I think you'd need some serious tire and driver to do that.

[DADS ACR]

A white Charger Hellcat went 9.72 @ 142mph in Orlando last Sunday. Seemed pretty effortless and very easy.
Looked totally stock except the rear tires/wheels. I was impressed. :dude3:

[BDZ1984]

Got to see the 9.0 at Prefix/Arrow on Friday. That's going to be a beast from what Dick was saying.

[DZnutz]

Got to see the 9.0 at Prefix/Arrow on Friday. That's going to be a beast from what Dick was saying.

What exactly did you get to see?

[ViperSmith]

$120 challenger. Lmao.

[IndyRon]

While I think a $100k challenger will be a hard sale and does seem comical, they keep making Mustang variants nearing or over $100k and goobers keep buying them!

[Snorman]

While I think a $100k challenger will be a hard sale and does seem comical, they keep making Mustang variants nearing or over $100k and goobers keep buying them!Example?
I'm not aware of any Mustang variants anywhere near $100k.
S.

[Jack B]

A stock auto Hellcat with tires in a normal DA is approx a 11.00 car. The manual trans version is approx 12.75. With a tuneable pcm, modified trans/torque converter and new diff gears they are a 10.5-10.6 car. Take that car to a negative DA, they will go low 10's and 135 mph.

That 9.72 run was not from a stock car, look at the mph.



A white Charger Hellcat went 9.72 @ 142mph in Orlando last Sunday. Seemed pretty effortless and very easy.
Looked totally stock except the rear tires/wheels. I was impressed. :dude3:

[Snorman]

A stock auto Hellcat with tires in a normal DA is approx a 11.00 car. The manual trans version is approx 12.75. With a tuneable pcm, modified trans/torque converter and new diff gears they are a 10.5-10.6 car. Take that car to a negative DA, they will go low 10's and 135 mph.

That 9.72 run was not from a stock car, look at the mph.
Why even mess with the TCM programming, torque converter or jack up the rear gearing when all the car needs is a lower, tune and maybe intake/exhaust?
S.

[Camfab]

Wow a Hellcat manual is 1.75 seconds slower in the qtr? Not doubting your knowledge, but that's got to be a typo!

[Donato]

Example?
I'm not aware of any Mustang variants anywhere near $100k.
S.

The Shelby GT500 Super Snake; http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a26666/shelby-super-snake-road-test/

[NT-ACR]

The Shelby GT500 Super Snake; http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a26666/shelby-super-snake-road-test/

That's aftermarket. Not the same.

[Donato]

That's aftermarket. Not the same.

A Shelby is a Mustang "variant".

[sadil]

I think we are getting off topic. Lets keep this thread reserved for Arrow's development of a 9.0L for the Viper.

[ViperPete]

I think we are getting off topic. Lets keep this thread reserved for Arrow's development of a 9.0L for the Viper.

Yes. This is good.

Maybe a MOD can clean the thread up.

[Jack B]

Wow a Hellcat manual is 1.75 seconds slower in the qtr? Not doubting your knowledge, but that's got to be a typo!

Clarification - .75 sec slower

[IndyRon]

Example?
I'm not aware of any Mustang variants anywhere near $100k.
S.

Shelby GT350R
http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/results/ford/mustang--shelby--gt350r

You have multiple choices in colors too. :P

[Snorman]

Shelby GT350R
http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/results/ford/mustang--shelby--gt350r

You have multiple choices in colors too. :PThat's a ~$65-70k car. Using examples where people are asking ridiculous amounts of $$$ is pretty silly. Last I looked on Cars.com, there were close to 600 unsold GT350's including R's available. Dealers wanted $100k for Hellcats too.
S.

[ACRucrazy]

9.0 liter Viper V10s....

[Jack B]

I am surprised how quiet this thread has become.


9.0 liter Viper V10s....

[FLATOUT]

I am surprised how quiet this thread has become.

Hard to road test a stroker, in car, in the dead of winter, in Detroit. It's still running great on the dyno.

[J TNT]

Up here we say " Hold onto my coffee and watch this !"........lol !
Weather in Detroit is calling for 50'f this afternoon . :)

[ViperPete]

Hard to road test a stroker, in car, in the dead of winter, in Detroit. It's still running great on the dyno.

Ship it down here. I'll put some miles on it absolutely free of charge.

[Donato]

So Ford uses a technology called "Plasma transferred wire arc thermal spraying" on the Shelby GT500 6.4 block to remove the cylinder liners and gain .4 liters of volume to 6.8 and the tech seems to be holding its own. Is there a possibility to remove the liners on the V10 block and use the same tech on the aluminum cylinders to gain additional volume or is that tech exclusive to Ford?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying

Edit: I just read that the Nissan GTR uses the same Ford tech on their twin-turbo V6 so I guess it could be possible?

[ZeeViper]

sounds like they are depositing a thin layer of some sort of hard material. Clever, but i'll take the jugs anyday. They have been proven time and time again for engines that get hammered on.

[CasperZR]

You Viper folks sure have it goin on at the moment. Nice to see and read about some true enthusiasts stayin' on top of the game.

[Donato]

sounds like they are depositing a thin layer of some sort of hard material. Clever, but i'll take the jugs anyday. They have been proven time and time again for engines that get hammered on.

Who here would argue the Nissan GTR twin-turbo hasn't been "hammered on" to the extreme?

[J TNT]

Similar technology is used on 1 litre sport bikes making 200 hp / liter and revving to 15000 RPM .
So Ford uses a technology called "Plasma transferred wire arc thermal spraying" on the Shelby GT500 6.4 block to remove the cylinder liners and gain .4 liters of volume to 6.8 and the tech seems to be holding its own. Is there a possibility to remove the liners on the V10 block and use the same tech on the aluminum cylinders to gain additional volume or is that tech exclusive to Ford?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying

Edit: I just read that the Nissan GTR uses the same Ford tech on their twin-turbo V6 so I guess it could be possible?

[mjorgensen]

In case it has not already been mentioned if your car is stock and you are thinking the 9.0L may be for you, doing the whole Stage2 build and 9.0L at the same time will save the labor and R&I cost which is not an insignificant amount. We should have some preliminary pricing shortly for complete packages. The option of using the G4 block during this process will also be available at a very reasonable cost.

Can't wait till they can get the engine in and some miles on it, I'm sure Dick and Lee want it to be perfect after spending all these years trying to make it a reality for Arrow.

[Nambo]

In case it has not already been mentioned if your car is stock and you are thinking the 9.0L may be for you, doing the whole Stage2 build and 9.0L at the same time will save the labor and R&I cost which is not an insignificant amount. We should have some preliminary pricing shortly for complete packages. The option of using the G4 block during this process will also be available at a very reasonable cost.

Can't wait till they can get the engine in and some miles on it, I'm sure Dick and Lee want it to be perfect after spending all these years trying to make it a reality for Arrow.

Looking forward to this Mark. Gen IV block and fresh bottom end with an accusump, no more worries on track except for lap times!

[ZeeViper]

Who here would argue the Nissan GTR twin-turbo hasn't been "hammered on" to the extreme?

Simmer down there Donato, haha. it was my opinion as i stated iiiii would take the sleeves.

But to be a pain.... Would anyone here argue that an iron block is ideal for big cylinder pressure aka power??

Obviously the motors mentioned are extremely strong, i work in a manufacturing environment with all kinds of cool technologies. Execution of the new stuff is where you end up seeing the shortcomings, i would venture a guess that the variation in the spray lining is greater than the construction of the sleeve that will be pressed in and finish machined. again my opinion...

[FLATOUT]

Agree on the Gen IV blocks, great time to add one.

Andy

[Ludington1]

Hope this isn't too far off-topic... from the basic info availble here, is it a possibility that a Gen IV car could also be built with a combination of the Arrow Stage II heads/cam package and go to 9.0L at the same time?

Darren

[FLATOUT]

Hope this isn't too far off-topic... from the basic info availble here, is it a possibility that a Gen IV car could also be built with a combination of the Arrow Stage II heads/cam package and go to 9.0L at the same time?

Darren

Absolutely.

[ViperSmith]

Agree on the Gen IV blocks, great time to add one.

Andy
You guys have one or two laying around right :p

Your instagram makes me need to make more cash!

[sadil]

Spray-bore instead of liners is cool but it is a very intricate process. You really need to get your process set-up right and also follow up with lots of testing to confirm that you are not getting cracks. The testing can be done but not sure how you could get the process down with such a limited number of vehicles. The GT500 is mass-produced and Nissan did a lot of research for the GTR engine.

[Stealth78]

absolutely.

giggitty!!!

[Donato]

Simmer down there Donato, haha. it was my opinion as i stated iiiii would take the sleeves.

But to be a pain.... Would anyone here argue that an iron block is ideal for big cylinder pressure aka power??

Obviously the motors mentioned are extremely strong, i work in a manufacturing environment with all kinds of cool technologies. Execution of the new stuff is where you end up seeing the shortcomings, i would venture a guess that the variation in the spray lining is greater than the construction of the sleeve that will be pressed in and finish machined. again my opinion...

No worries, it was just a thought on increasing the volume of the Viper V10 without changing the design of the block and everything else that bolts up to it.

[Jack B]

Not hard to ship it down to your waiting and loving hands




Hard to road test a stroker, in car, in the dead of winter, in Detroit. It's still running great on the dyno.

[FLATOUT]

Not hard to ship it down your waiting and loving hands

LOL From your mouth to Gods ears :D

[cashcorn]

Has Winkles designed a new cam for this configuration?

[Ludington1]

giggitty!!!

Haha, I was thinking more like "damnit"!

[IndyRon]

That's a ~$65-70k car. Using examples where people are asking ridiculous amounts of $$$ is pretty silly. Last I looked on Cars.com, there were close to 600 unsold GT350's including R's available. Dealers wanted $100k for Hellcats too.
S.

Call me what you want. You saw the ad. :)

[FLATOUT]

Has Winkles designed a new cam for this configuration?

As of now he's still running the same fixed stage 2 Cam from our kits.

[FLATOUT]

You guys have one or two laying around right :p

Your instagram makes me need to make more cash!

Lol yeah just a couple right :D Glad I bought all of those, I have a feeling they are going to come in handy for many of us after the car is gone.

[Stealth78]

Haha, I was thinking more like "damnit"!

LMAO! Seriously.... this is not exactly what I needed to be tempted with.

[ACRucrazy]

Well then

[Murpowa]

Nice find ACRucrazy

[sadil]

:monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::m onkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::mon keyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monke yleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyl eft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft::monkeyleft:

[bkrone]

Well then

And it's a targa too, boo!!

[FLATOUT]

Nothing in that car (yet), but further proof that it is happening and will be available soon!

[ACRSNK]

Well then

Yes I want one!!!

[Dman]

Nothing in that car (yet), but further proof that it is happening and will be available soon!

Wow, that FB post seems a little deceiving then for no reason. i guess that's why it's a pic and not a teaser vid. I opted in for info, although i wonder at what cost that extra 50hp will come, but yanking the crank sounds good for peace of mind too, making sure everything is all,cleaned up and precise is nice, I wonder if the cross drilled oiling is changed.

Great to see progress by vendors even though the gen5 is sunsetting in production, that's commitment.

[donk_316]

Andy,
Sledgehammer? Any news?

A 9.0L supercharged Arrow engine would be pretty slick!

[ACRucrazy]

Andy,
Sledgehammer? Any news?

A 9.0L supercharged Arrow engine would be pretty slick!

I recall it being said the supercharger got the axe.

[sadil]

And it's a targa too, boo!!

Its just Prefix's development car I think. Always at the local shows.

[GTSilver]

800hp on the crank is 60hp more than the H/C arrow stage 2 which will be around 30-40rwhp extra. Depending on price but if that will be the end result I may go a different route, probably Nth Moto. Again its still to soon to judge.

Yousif

[Murpowa]

Could be 800 whp...

[FLATOUT]

800hp on the crank is 60hp more than the H/C arrow stage 2 which will be around 30-40rwhp extra. Depending on price but if that will be the end result I may go a different route, probably Nth Moto. Again its still to soon to judge.

Yousif

Ignore what hp figures they posted, and the fact that torque numbers that are not mentioned.

[Jack B]

The losses on a car with IRS are usually 15%, use .85 times fwhp as your rwhp.

I am basing the next comment on building a NA car where the budget is not unlimited. Just an opinion and this is a big if, when and if Arrow produces the stroker, it will be your best $/hp option. The reason is, if you go with a non-Arrow option, you will probably need an after-market pcm. When you add the $15K-$20k for the new PCM, the $/hp has dramatically increased. It is a different story if you are going FI. Secondly, I am not quite sure that anyone with an aftermarket PCM continues to have the factory ESC, which is pretty darn good.

The caveat to my statement is that some tuner that has mastered HPT and offers a similar (Arrow) NA package is going to also have a $/HP cost close to the Arrow option.

If I am wrong about the above assumptions, let's clarify and add to this thread.



800hp on the crank is 60hp more than the H/C arrow stage 2 which will be around 30-40rwhp extra. Depending on price but if that will be the end result I may go a different route, probably Nth Moto. Again its still to soon to judge.

Yousif

[1evilviper]

Andy< keep me posted buddy, its a log winter up here in NY, I'm getting bored and would love to send her back down to ya!

[FLATOUT]

Andy< keep me posted buddy, its a log winter up here in NY, I'm getting bored and would love to send her back down to ya!

Will do.

[Nth Moto]

The losses on a car with IRS are usually 15%, use .85 times fwhp as your rwhp.

I am basing the next comment on building a NA car where the budget is not unlimited. Just an opinion and this is a big if, when and if Arrow produces the stroker, it will be your best $/hp option. The reason is, if you go with a non-Arrow option, you will probably need an after-market pcm. When you add the $15K-$20k for the new PCM, the $/hp has dramatically increased. It is a different story if you are going FI. Secondly, I am not quite sure that anyone with an aftermarket PCM continues to have the factory ESC, which is pretty darn good.

The caveat to my statement is that some tuner that has mastered HPT and offers a similar (Arrow) NA package is going to also have a $/HP cost close to the Arrow option.

If I am wrong about the above assumptions, let's clarify and add to this thread.

Jack, you asked for clarity a few posts prior, so here are my thoughts.

One loss percentage number for RWHP can't be assumed since dyno readings themselves vary. For instance, the dyno we test on typically shows bone stock Gen V Vipers ranging anywhere from 515 WHP to 540 WHP (We put two stock cars on the dyno last week within an hour of each other and recorded 519 and 538). This not only shows the variances in the OEM cars but the relationship from BHP to WHP can be far off from 15%, assuming that the factory crank HP rating is indeed accurate. Take that for what it's worth - which is just a point of reference, the same way we use it. We use the dyno to test changes and gains more than anything. The drag strip (and 1/2 mile) tell the real story.

There are aftermarket offerings for "heads/cam" systems from companies such as ourselves using the factory PCM already. That being said, $/HP shouldn't be the only determining factor for a purchaser in my opinion. There have been several times we have discussed a project with a prospective customer and genuinely recommended they go with the Arrow package through Andy at Viper Exchange as the best fit for their needs; whether that be power, price, or perhaps even geographic location. Finding what suits the customer best will ultimately make more happy Viper owners.

In regards to your pricing numbers for the aftermarket PCM, it's worth noting for those that have not discussed this option with us that you're quite high on that low number, let alone the range span. However, if you want to buy one of our Nth Moto MoTeC M1 systems for $20K I'll be happy to sell you one, maybe two! :) You are correct though, that when a standalone ECU setup is chosen for a build (be it for flex fuel capability, incredibly accurate engine control, fully adjustable traction control, aggressive engine combinations made very driveable, forced induction capabilities, etc.) the cost to power ratio doesn't stay linear. Those that are true Naturally Aspirated Aficionados understand that it's the most expensive way to make power, but to them it's far more gratifying knowing that every detail had to be sweat on to ensure the gains they were after have been achieved.

[FLATOUT]

Well said Aaron. :)

[Jack B]

Thanks for your input, that is why I included the caveat and request for input. There has been too many open ended comments in the past.

Have you been abe to keep the factory ESC when a motec is installed. Traction control is great, but, the factory ESC is also very nice.


Jack, you asked for clarity a few posts prior, so here are my thoughts.

One loss percentage number for RWHP can't be assumed since dyno readings themselves vary. For instance, the dyno we test on typically shows bone stock Gen V Vipers ranging anywhere from 515 WHP to 540 WHP (We put two stock cars on the dyno last week within an hour of each other and recorded 519 and 538). This not only shows the variances in the OEM cars but the relationship from BHP to WHP can be far off from 15%, assuming that the factory crank HP rating is indeed accurate. Take that for what it's worth - which is just a point of reference, the same way we use it. We use the dyno to test changes and gains more than anything. The drag strip (and 1/2 mile) tell the real story.

There are aftermarket offerings for "heads/cam" systems from companies such as ourselves using the factory PCM already. That being said, $/HP shouldn't be the only determining factor for a purchaser in my opinion. There have been several times we have discussed a project with a prospective customer and genuinely recommended they go with the Arrow package through Andy at Viper Exchange as the best fit for their needs; whether that be power, price, or perhaps even geographic location. Finding what suits the customer best will ultimately make more happy Viper owners.

In regards to your pricing numbers for the aftermarket PCM, it's worth noting for those that have not discussed this option with us that you're quite high on that low number, let alone the range span. However, if you want to buy one of our Nth Moto MoTeC M1 systems for $20K I'll be happy to sell you one, maybe two! :) You are correct though, that when a standalone ECU setup is chosen for a build (be it for flex fuel capability, incredibly accurate engine control, fully adjustable traction control, aggressive engine combinations made very driveable, forced induction capabilities, etc.) the cost to power ratio doesn't stay linear. Those that are true Naturally Aspirated Aficionados understand that it's the most expensive way to make power, but to them it's far more gratifying knowing that every detail had to be sweat on to ensure the gains they were after have been achieved.

[donk_316]

wow guys this was on page 4! Pick up your game!

Where the SHIT is a video of this thing on a dyno? A pic of the crank? anything!

[ACRucrazy]

Dyno number bump?

[mjorgensen]

Dyno number bump?

Only preliminary numbers, nothing we can put out there though as far as I'm told. Hopefully more after some time in the mule car.

[Murpowa]

Only preliminary numbers, nothing we can put out there though as far as I'm told. Hopefully more after some time in the mule car.

Mark, how about a vague multiple choice question to keep this thread interesting:

The preliminary hp number was;

A. 6XX
B. 7XX
C. 8XX

:D

[JGK95]

Bump