Balenger Headers and Heat

[Jack B]

:lol2:I was looking at the headers that Mark had in the pictures of the TA, If you notice they are using a single high efficiency cat and it is located in the sill. The oem exhaust uses a two cat system. The first cat is located right behind the toe well. From my infrared scans that toe well area (not the sills) proved to be the hottest spot in the cabin. Since the Belanger system eliminates that cat the overall cabin heat should come way down. In addition, the ceramic coating in general will drop the cabin temperature. In summary, if you are in a high temp climate the Belanger headers look like an easy fix to high cabin temps.

To expand on the temp issues with the IAT, these headers or any headers with a ceramic coating are going affect the overall temps under the hood in a positive way. IMHO cost is the issue for not including a tubular header in the base model, however, the Belangers or any similar header, at least, should be an option.:D

[Voice of Reason]

I saw the pictures too and was under the impression that headers without a PCM change would result in a CEL, is this not true?

[Jack B]

Belanger relocated the O2 sensor location and that seems to have fixed the problem. The G4 responded dramatically to headers, the G5 could be even better.


I saw the pictures too and was under the impression that headers without a PCM change would result in a CEL, is this not true?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

One of my reservations about going to headers has always been extra issues caused by excessive heat in the engine bay. I have heard of many issues others have had caused by extra heat when adding headers.

Is this due to lack of heat shielding with headers vs OEM? Is heat shielding still required with a ceramic coated header?

[mjorgensen]

Belanger headers being coated inside and outside will lower the radiated heat by 200 degrees over a S.S. header design so they will run cooler then any other system available. This keeps heat in the exhaust and out of the engine bay ;-)

[mjorgensen]

I saw the pictures too and was under the impression that headers without a PCM change would result in a CEL, is this not true?

Belanger is also using a very high spec catalyst to combat the CEL issues of lesser brands.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Belanger headers being coated inside and outside will lower the radiated heat by 200 degrees over a S.S. header design so they will run cooler then any other system available. This keeps heat in the exhaust and out of the engine bay ;-)

Mark - will they run cooler than the OEM exhaust?

[Policy Limits]

Lets hear the bad boy on a vid!!!

[mjorgensen]

Mark - will they run cooler than the OEM exhaust?

We will find out, but since the factory system is raw S.S. (for longevity as an OEM and for emissions requirements (calibrations)) even though double wall and has the extra cat in the footwell I would think that would be a for sure...

[Jack B]

The G5 has very little in the way of heat shielding dedicated directly to the headers/exhaust. The G5 has large amounts of under hood general heat shielding to keep the engine bay heat out of the cabin. As an example, my G2 has no firewall/footwell heat shielding, whereas, the G5 does.

The twin ceramic coating (as Mark said) keeps a lot more heat inside the exhaust. It would be a mistake on a G5 to install any after-market header without the twin ceramic coating. You should not cover or shield a header that has the ceramic coating, it will damage the coating. There cannot be any doubt these headers (or any ceramic coated system) will cool the cabin down quite a bit. You also save 2.5 lbs per side.


One of my reservations about going to headers has always been extra issues caused by excessive heat in the engine bay. I have heard of many issues others have had caused by extra heat when adding headers.

Is this due to lack of heat shielding with headers vs OEM? Is heat shielding still required with a ceramic coated header?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

We will find out, but since the factory system is raw S.S. (for longevity as an OEM and for emissions requirements (calibrations)) even though double wall and has the extra cat in the footwell I would think that would be a for sure...


The G5 has very little in the way of heat shielding dedicated directly to the headers/exhaust. The G5 has large amounts of under hood general heat shielding to keep the engine bay heat out of the cabin. As an example, my G2 has no firewall/footwell heat shielding, whereas, the G5 does.

The twin ceramic coating (as Mark said) keeps a lot more heat inside the exhaust. It would be a mistake on a G5 to install any after-market header without the twin ceramic coating. You should not cover or shield a header that has the ceramic coating, it will damage the coating. There cannot be any doubt these headers (or any ceramic coated system) will cool the cabin down quite a bit. You also save 2.5 lbs per side.

Thanks guys. What has the experience been on the Gen IV?

[Shooter]

How is it that you can put headers on the car, yet a simple air filter change will throw a cel.? Please educate me. Am I missing something?

[ACRucrazy]

From what I can see they are not fully "twin ceramic coated" or "coated inside and outside"

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1472761_10151933642002737_1101314548_n.jpg

[Jack B]

When you change anything in front of the maf sensors any car can throw a code. I used to carry a scan tool to get my turbo GXP out of limp mode due to a filter change

With exhaust mods it is mostly about O2 sensor placement



How is it that you can put headers on the car, yet a simple air filter change will throw a cel.? Please educate me. Am I missing something?

[TrackAire]

My car is a Gen 4 but I would assume since the horsepower is similar the heat will be similar. With the car completely stock, I could feel the heat in the foot well areas when driving. Anytime the outside temps were above 70 degrees, I'd have the AC on the bi-level mode (feet and face vents). I went to a BBG stainless steel header that was coated by Jet Hot coatings in black, single metal substrate cat and stock muffler. Headers still look brand new 3 years later. But, the heat coming into the cabin seems the same to me. Last year I totally deleted the cat from the and went with a single ACR-X muffler system. Heat still feels the same inside the cabin. If it is warm outside, the AC is going to be turned on for me. I never drive with my windows open except on the track...don't want to mess up my thinning hair, lol.

I don't have thermal images or any temperature scans or readings of what is going on other than my seat of the pants feel. Although I am sure the exhaust contributes to the cabin heat, I do believe that the giant chunk of aluminum putting out over 600 hp is the ultimate culprit....it is radiating a lot of heat. I do know that when doing oil changes, I've never had a motor stay so hot for so long after shutdown.

Regarding other problems that the headers can cause, I believe the clutch fluid line can get hot and make clutch engagement sketchy. Also, I've come to the conclusion that there is no single small cat on the market that will last very long on a Viper platform. It seems that after 2k to 3k miles, they lose a lot of efficiency and can throw a code unless you have the Mopar controller. Mine went for around 2000 miles before I threw a code and then I installed the Mopar controller. There is a reason the stock system has to use two rather large cats to make it last.

Because of the quality and looks, I definitely recommend Jet Hot coatings....but I would not expect any coating thinner than a sheet of paper to make a difference for underhood heat when dealing with a 600 hp plus motor. Once the vehicle is moving and air is swirling in the engine compartment, I don't think you can see any temp differences between coated and uncoated.

George

[Jack B]

Good question, I have always wondered the same. I have a set of G2's that sure appear to be twin coated.

Maybe Mark can answer that question.


From what I can see they are not fully "twin ceramic coated" or "coated inside and outside"

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1472761_10151933642002737_1101314548_n.jpg

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Gen 3 and 4 and 5 have 4 cats. When you delete the 'pre cat' and go with a 2-cat hi flow system, or Super HF (metal honeycomb) cats, we repeatedly saw footwell temps in the toe box drop significantly. 200-f lower temps were common on the external box vs OE. CORSA even took measurements for us back in G3 days. The CORSA cat-backs lowered (rear) sill temps y 125-135f lowe, but the CATS really dropped the heat. Also note: Aluminized steel opreates about 180f cooler than Stainless BEFORE it gets ceramic-coated! Metallurgy Matters.

And as Mark noted, Belanger has chosen an upgraded HF cat for G5......

Since there is NO Gen 5 Mopar PCM released [yet,] we all have to admit that 'the jury is out' on whether, or how often, a CEL might be thrown in Gen 5. Only 1000 miles (in AZ) have been logged. No dyno runs yet, that I know of.

And I believe that since SRT has 'wrung every avail HP" out of the G5 motor that it (legally) can, I doubt we will see "better" HP number gains {+40-50) that G3-4 saw, and as JackB above and all of us are wishing for.

Stay "Tuned"

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

And furthermore ( since I cannot edit my posts) I again suspect that the PRI Show in FL next week may be the platform from which the G-5 MoPar PCM is finally 'announced'...... the programming is complete, as we learned 2 weeks ago at Sebring.....

If you are going to PRI, time to twist arms a bit at Mopar!

[mjorgensen]

Good question, I have always wondered the same. I have a set of G2's that sure appear to be twin coated.

Maybe Mark can answer that question.

It would be impossible to get the inside and outside coatings the same visually or thickness. The coating is probably a small portion inside as compared to the outside that is very thick. On a part of the system that can be done easier like this it looks different.
1738

[Jack B]

Jon:

Let me throw an engineer's slant on the possible hp increase that would come with the headers. Let me preface this by saying I will buy the Belanger next year after i base line the car whether or not they prove to add hp, I just want to get rid of the heat.

The majority of the hp increase in the G5 came from increased intake cam duration, a better intake, a minor tweek to exhaust valve timing and a better flowing cat. Please correct me if I am wrong, with the exception of the change in the cat, the other changes appear as though they would benefit from a better exhaust system.

My point is, the G5 exhaust is basically the same as the G4 exhaust with the exception of the cat, if the G4 saw nice hp gains in a header/exhaust change why wouldn't the G5. It is not as though the additional 40 hp in the Gen 5 (versus the G4) all came from an improved oem exhaust system. You may not see the peak hp change as much as it did in the Gen 4, however you should see nice gains in the total hp under the curve. There were several Gen 4's that dyno'ed at least 575, there is no reason a Gen 5 couldn't see 600 rwhp.




Gen 3 and 4 and 5 have 4 cats. When you delete the 'pre cat' and go with a 2-cat hi flow system, or Super HF (metal honeycomb) cats, we repeatedly saw footwell temps in the toe box drop significantly. 200-f lower temps were common on the external box vs OE. CORSA even took measurements for us back in G3 days. The CORSA cat-backs lowered (rear) sill temps y 125-135f lowe, but the CATS really dropped the heat. Also note: Aluminized steel opreates about 180f cooler than Stainless BEFORE it gets ceramic-coated! Metallurgy Matters.

And as Mark noted, Belanger has chosen an upgraded HF cat for G5......

Since there is NO Gen 5 Mopar PCM released [yet,] we all have to admit that 'the jury is out' on whether, or how often, a CEL might be thrown in Gen 5. Only 1000 miles (in AZ) have been logged. No dyno runs yet, that I know of.

And I believe that since SRT has 'wrung every avail HP" out of the G5 motor that it (legally) can, I doubt we will see "better" HP number gains {+40-50) that G3-4 saw, and as JackB above and all of us are wishing for.

Stay "Tuned"

[FLATOUT]

If you're concerned about heat why not wrap them with header wrap or wrap anything that is heat sensitive in high temp sheathing? I do this during header installs and have never had a problem with heat underhood.

Did the ACRX's have any issues with heat running ARH's as hard as they did? We are lucky that we have a factory built race car that was beat to death in a sanctioned race series that we can analyze for our street car issues.

I'm sure our X drivers or sales guys (Woodhouse, Tomball, and Parts Rack) could shed some light on any issues customers had with heat.

[mjorgensen]

17401741


http://youtu.be/EV2iJpOtUIc

Crappy first video, I'll get better next one with sills on.

[FLATOUT]

That photo of the install looks really clean. I run the ACRX kool soxs on mine. Any worries with the stock plug wires melting Mark?

[mjorgensen]

That photo of the install looks really clean. I run the ACRX kool soxs on mine. Any worries with the stock plug wires melting Mark?

I think that unless you beat the thing senseless all day long at the track you will be fine without them IMHO.

[FLATOUT]

I think that unless you beat the thing senseless all day long at the track you will be fine without them IMHO.

I think you're right that plastic conduit holds up pretty good and it's easy to position the plug wire away from the primaries. If not the heat sheilding is cheap and easy to throw on if any one notices the plastic start to warp.

[ViperSmith]

Actually, what are you guys using to wrap? I Have some yellowing near the sill...

[mjorgensen]

Actually, what are you guys using to wrap? I Have some yellowing near the sill...

Yellowing from what and where exactly is it? If the factory heat shielding is not compromised then I don't know how the paint could be affected. Mods?

[ACRucrazy]

There have been several reports of yellowing sills by the cats.

[mjorgensen]

Are there any pictures on line I can find and grab?

[Jack B]

What is sort of interesting, on my Gen 2, I have run the Belangers for 12 years without any type of protection for the plug wires and the wires look like new? These are after-market plug wires and they merely have a rubber socket, not the metal or plastic shrouds. I would doubt they would be in the same condition if I had run the oem headers.

With all this discussion, I pulled my sill covers on the Gen 5, the front oem cat sits about an inch off and in the center of the lower toe well/box. Typically the cats in most cars have a surface temp that is in a range of 700-1000 degrees F. That is a huge heat load on the cabin. I will leave the sill off and take an IR picture of the cats before the end of the year.

The following data has not been posted because it is troll fodder. That spot i am referring to in the toe well is the hottest spot in the cabin, If you look under the dash, the interior has insulation under the carpet and it stops about ten inches above the floor. There is a piece of exposed firewall immediately above the carpet, I have IR scans of that that are over 250 degrees F. There is a radiant insulating barrier on the outside, however, it is over powered by the proximity of the cat. That is one very good reason for removing that cat.


I think you're right that plastic conduit holds up pretty good and it's easy to position the plug wire away from the primaries. If not the heat sheilding is cheap and easy to throw on if any one notices the plastic start to warp.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

"""""Did the ACRX's have any issues with heat running ARH's as hard as they did? We are lucky that we have a factory built race car that was beat to death in a sanctioned race series that we can analyze for our street car issues.

I'm sure our X drivers or sales guys (Woodhouse, Tomball, and Parts Rack) could shed some light on any issues customers had with heat. FLAT OUT""""

Flat:

ACR-X had virtually every heat-vulnerable element REMOVED to convert it from a 2010 ACR into an ACR-X. A steert-car is not so fortunate.

Absolute Trivia Fact:

Very few people know that Belanger Headers received the original Purchase Order (1st choice) for the ACR-X headers. But SRT only have Lou 3-4 weeks notie! Belanger was unable to meet the short-deadline to produce the first 25, and so he PASSED on the purchase order!! (in crabby fashion I might add.) The header that was 2nd choice was KNOWN to operate much hotter, and have a different power-band, but COULD build 25 on time (almost) and at a lower cost. The cost factor was also a consideration at a time when only 17 of the 50 planned cars had been sold!

And since the -X was a spec-racer, every team would have the same issues and be required to run the spec-choice header.

[ViperSmith]

Yellowing from what and where exactly is it? If the factory heat shielding is not compromised then I don't know how the paint could be affected. Mods?

http://i.imgur.com/VYl9Ij5.jpg

All stock.

Local service manager called SRT. SRT says street driving could cause it and the Viper isn't really meant for around town driving. I find that to be BS. It will be covered under warranty, but I dislike their excuse.

[Simms]

Very nice! What's the reasoning to use the Corsa exhaust with the Belanger headers instead of Lou's full setup? Not available yet for the Gen V, less drone, etc?

I actually like the sound of full Belanger set ups. Seems deeper, maybe its the use of the Magnaflow muffler and aluminum?



17401741


http://youtu.be/EV2iJpOtUIc

Crappy first video, I'll get better next one with sills on.

[Jack B]

Did they give you any detail on cause? Their answer was very bad.



http://i.imgur.com/VYl9Ij5.jpg

All stock.

Local service manager called SRT. SRT says street driving could cause it and the Viper isn't really meant for around town driving. I find that to be BS. It will be covered under warranty, but I dislike their excuse.

[Jack B]

Not available, however, a lighter muffler would be nice, it is over 20 lbs.


Very nice! What's the reasoning to use the Corsa exhaust with the Belanger headers instead of Lou's full setup? Not available yet for the Gen V, less drone, etc?

I actually like the sound of full Belanger set ups. Seems deeper, maybe its the use of the Magnaflow muffler and aluminum?

[ViperSmith]

Did they give you any detail on cause? Their answer was very bad.

Until they pull the panel off they won't know (I just asked him to document the yellowing) - perhaps it is missing heat shielding?

Yeah, I was not impressed with their response.

[Jack B]

It is hard for me to visualize where that spot is because you are zoomed in. Give me a location and I will post a pick of what is under the sill at that point

.
Until they pull the panel off they won't know (I just asked him to document the yellowing) - perhaps it is missing heat shielding?

Yeah, I was not impressed with their response.

[ViperSmith]

It is hard for me to visualize where that spot is because you are zoomed in. Give me a location and I will post a pick of what is under the sill at that point

.

jack:
http://i.imgur.com/ZzbH5yu.jpg

[Jack B]

I will take a pic, however, that is the hottest spot on the sill and it is probably the most complicated as far as assembly. My car has piece of tunnel wrap that is fixed to the underside of the sub frame at that spot, if that was left out it could cause a problem.


jack:
http://i.imgur.com/ZzbH5yu.jpg

[ViperGeorge]

jack:
http://i.imgur.com/ZzbH5yu.jpg

Crap, I hope this doesn't happen to the white 14 I'm buying. That would stink and really tick me off.

[mjorgensen]

Sometimes I would get yellowing like this on a white Mustang I used to have and a mild cleaner wax would take it right off if you want to at least try that first.

[ViperSmith]

Crap, I hope this doesn't happen to the white 14 I'm buying. That would stink and really tick me off.

The dealer will fix it, but it is more annoying than anything. It isn't that bad, but you notice it when detailing.

I'll take marks advice and give that a go.

[Jack B]

If I interpret the pic correctly the discoloration is not on the sill, it is the bottom lip of the side panel or gill. In this case a pic will not help. The fix is easy, there is a small piece of insulation (tunnel wrap) on the bottom of the lip, on my car the insulation did not extend all the way to the rear or end of panel. Most cars will not show any color change, your car is white and is going to show any minor issue, You want to have them take that panel off and make sure the entire bottom of that piece is covered by tunnel wrap, that will stop the problem from happening again.

This is something that would be hard to plan for or detect in the mule stage. The radiant barrier/insulation in the sill fine, however, there is a lot of a additional heat from the forward cat that is escaping above the sill and finding this unprotected corner. The Belanger headers delete that forward cat and should address this issue.


The dealer will fix it, but it is more annoying than anything. It isn't that bad, but you notice it when detailing.

I'll take marks advice and give that a go.

[ViperSmith]

Jack, thanks. There is a bit of yellowing on the sill itself as well - but it isn't noticeable. I agree, I am not upset it happened, SRT will fix it - just don't like their reasoning...

[ACRucrazy]

3:03-3:13


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c62cQBkQnIY

[ViperSmith]

Honestly, I have taken some 150m road trips in the car and never noticed my feet getting hot.

[mjorgensen]

This is what it looks like under that area as far as protection from the exhaust.
1754175517561757

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

That Sill-cat-cocoon yellowing has been a common Viper trait. "Toasted Marshmallow Golden" is the color! Covered under 'corrosion' provisons of warrantee. The must vulnerable paint is White, then Silver, then Yellow. But you can see it in Blue, Red, Steel-Grey, etc etc.
It can show up in ONE event of a fouled cat.....or even a prolonged sit-and-idle event.

Depending on how hard the car is driven, and IF you let the cats run hot ( due to failing plugs/wires/coils/O2s /tuning ) that yellowing usually shows up at about 12-15K miles. Can be sooner on tracked cars. Can be later on well-maintained car.

Hi-Flow cats virtually eliminate the problem, so long as no fouling. DONT WRAP CATS! OK to wrap inlet-outlet pipes but that can shorten life of pipes.....even stainless.

JonB

[Coloviper]

Does the new system pass emissions Jon? My rear still puckers when I think of what we had to go through to try to get it to pass and tested out correctly here in the Rockies on the 06' Coupe with the Full Bellanger set up. I ended up selling the car partly because of major health reasons at the time and partly the pain to get it back in compliance, which it never did. Great build quality for the system and loved the sound but the cat quality was not up to par in the least. Hopefully that is fixed with this new set-up for the G5 and this new super cat. Have to admit that the absolute worse part was speaking with Lou during. After a couple of those experiences with him, I can not buy his product ever again on principle alone. So no one has the same experience, I think someone should comment on the system being used in those states where you must emissions test. Will this new super cat system pass or not?

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

Yes removing the first set of cats and thermal coated headers help but the primaries, collectors and secondary cats still radiate a lot of heat that's absorbed in the toe box tunnel and rocker areas which still translates into high footwell temperatures.. Remember factory and after market cats run in the 1900 degree operating range, hot stuff..

I've seen, worked on and have installed Belanger, M&M, Kooks, Edlebrock, Borla, Hennessey, ACR-X and other brands of headers on customers Viper's at my Garage.. One thing that they all have in common is excess heat in the toe box and side rocker areas. All steel areas that get heat soaked, burn wires and insulation eventually, yellowing of clear chip guard coatings and discoloring of sometimes hard to match Viper paint colors. I advise my clients that periodic inspections (preventative maintenance) is a good thing no matter what brand of header or cat installed..

As a new header manufacture we're obliged to address this issue and are currently developing a thermal barrier kit that will help address the inherient heat issue Viper has in its inframe exhaust system. Goal is to substaintially reduce temps In the toe box, rocker areas and muffler kit.. A good science project indeed.

I bring this up because this would be a universal exhaust thermal kit that would work well with all current aftermarket headers and muffler systems like Belanger-Magnaflow, M&M, ACR-X, Corsa and Borla.

There's no magic solution in exhaust design IMO, but there is some great thermal coating options like JetHot Coatings readily available. I'd stay away from the 2000 plus degree thermal coatings unless you have a dedicated track car, because these type of thermal coatings need to maintain extremely high operating temperatures to properly cure and will fail if not met..

Bad Boyzz Garage
Toddy

[FLATOUT]

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[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

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[FLATOUT]

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[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

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[SilveRT8]

???

[FLATOUT]

???

Toddy and I only speak in code, sorry. ;)

[SilveRT8]

At least I got the number right!

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

:lol2:
Toddy and I only speak in code, sorry. ;)

Morse Code ///...

[VividRacing]

... --- -- . / -. .. -.-. . / .... . .- -.. . .-. ...

http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html

[Steve M]

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