Ralph wants/needs an AT

[I Bin Therbefor]

Buy from GM?


General Motors Rear Wheel Drive Eight Speed Automatic Transmission
Technical Paper
2014-04-01
James Michael Hart, Tejinder Singh, William Goodrich

General Motors Rear Wheel Drive Eight Speed Automatic Transmission General Motors shall introduce a new rear wheel drive eight speed automatic transmission, known as the 8L90, in the 2015 Chevrolet Corvette. The rated turbine torque capacity is 1000 Nm. This transmission replaces the venerable 6L80 six speed automatic transmission. The objectives behind creation of this transmission are improved fuel economy, performance, and NVH. Packaging in the existing vehicle architecture and high mileage dependability are the givens. The architecture is required to offer low cost for a rear drive eight speed transmission while meeting the givens and objectives. An eight speed powerflow, invented by General Motors, was selected. This powerflow yields a 7.0 overall ratio spread, enabling improved launch capability because of a deeper first gear ratio and better fuel economy due to lower top gear N/V capability, relative to the 6L80. The eight speed ratios are generated using four simple planetary gearsets, two brake clutches and three rotating clutches. The resultant on-axis transmission architecture utilizes a squashed torque converter, an off-axis pump and four close coupled gearsets. The three rotating clutches have been located forward of the gearsets to minimize the length of oil feeds which provides for enhanced shift response and simplicity of turbine shaft manufacturing. The transmission architecture features a case with integral bell housing for enhanced powertrain stiffness. A unique pump drive design allows for off-axis packaging very low in the transmission. The pump is a binary vane type which effectively allows for two pumps in the packaging size of one. This design and packaging strategy not only enables low parasitic losses and optimum priming capability but also provides for ideal oil routing to the controls system, with the pump located in the valve body itself. The transmission controller is externally mounted, enabling packaging and powertrain integration flexibilities. The controller makes use of three speed sensors which provide for enhanced shift response and accuracy. Utilization of aluminum and magnesium components throughout the transmission yields competitive mass. The dedicated compensator feed circuit, used in GM six speed designs, was supplanted by a lube-fed design in order to simplify oil routing and enhance shift response. Packaging is within that of the GM 6L80 design, allowing for ease of application integration. The overall result is a robust, compact, and cost effective transmission which offers significant fuel economy and performance benefit, over its six speed counterpart, and shall provide an attractive balance of overall metrics in the automatic transmission market.

http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-1721/

[slitherv10]

Looks like GM in this horse race, is riding a horse with blinkers on. Oblivious to who and what is beside them competing against them.

All I can say is they are gaining lengths and its starting to hurt in the you know what.

[ViperSmith]

IMHO SRT needs to pin the Viper as the proving grounds for future tech in the entire Chrysler lineup.

Build a DCT that can handle 1000HP, so when you drop it in your Chrysler 300 or Dart, you know it isn't going to break.

IMHO thats how the Viper needs to renew itself within SRT, be the proving ground for the future of Chrysler.

[XSnake]

IMHO SRT needs to pin the Viper as the proving grounds for future tech in the entire Chrysler lineup.

Build a DCT that can handle 1000HP, so when you drop it in your Chrysler 300 or Dart, you know it isn't going to break.

IMHO thats how the Viper needs to renew itself within SRT, be the proving ground for the future of Chrysler.

What happens to the price of a Dart or a 300 when it has a Viper DCT trans in it?

[KRATEDISEASE]

Buy from GM?


General Motors Rear Wheel Drive Eight Speed Automatic Transmission
Technical Paper
2014-04-01
James Michael Hart, Tejinder Singh, William Goodrich

General Motors Rear Wheel Drive Eight Speed Automatic Transmission General Motors shall introduce a new rear wheel drive eight speed automatic transmission, known as the 8L90, in the 2015 Chevrolet Corvette. The rated turbine torque capacity is 1000 Nm. This transmission replaces the venerable 6L80 six speed automatic transmission. The objectives behind creation of this transmission are improved fuel economy, performance, and NVH. Packaging in the existing vehicle architecture and high mileage dependability are the givens. The architecture is required to offer low cost for a rear drive eight speed transmission while meeting the givens and objectives. An eight speed powerflow, invented by General Motors, was selected. This powerflow yields a 7.0 overall ratio spread, enabling improved launch capability because of a deeper first gear ratio and better fuel economy due to lower top gear N/V capability, relative to the 6L80. The eight speed ratios are generated using four simple planetary gearsets, two brake clutches and three rotating clutches. The resultant on-axis transmission architecture utilizes a squashed torque converter, an off-axis pump and four close coupled gearsets. The three rotating clutches have been located forward of the gearsets to minimize the length of oil feeds which provides for enhanced shift response and simplicity of turbine shaft manufacturing. The transmission architecture features a case with integral bell housing for enhanced powertrain stiffness. A unique pump drive design allows for off-axis packaging very low in the transmission. The pump is a binary vane type which effectively allows for two pumps in the packaging size of one. This design and packaging strategy not only enables low parasitic losses and optimum priming capability but also provides for ideal oil routing to the controls system, with the pump located in the valve body itself. The transmission controller is externally mounted, enabling packaging and powertrain integration flexibilities. The controller makes use of three speed sensors which provide for enhanced shift response and accuracy. Utilization of aluminum and magnesium components throughout the transmission yields competitive mass. The dedicated compensator feed circuit, used in GM six speed designs, was supplanted by a lube-fed design in order to simplify oil routing and enhance shift response. Packaging is within that of the GM 6L80 design, allowing for ease of application integration. The overall result is a robust, compact, and cost effective transmission which offers significant fuel economy and performance benefit, over its six speed counterpart, and shall provide an attractive balance of overall metrics in the automatic transmission market.

http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-1721/

Can Nine Ball translate this for me ? ( he is an engineer, I am only a bison burger flipper) My question is .... is this a dual clutch OR a torque converter ??

[nastygts]

What happens to the price of a Dart or a 300 when it has a Viper DCT trans in it?

Better yet....would you spend 75K+ for a 300 or Dart?

[Troublemaker]

One of the things that hurts Chrysler from using the Dodge as a test bed is the V10. I'm not saying I ever want to see anything but the 10 cylinder, but it makes it hard to develop any technology for a test bed that easily transfers over to the lesser models. They share very little, so it's hard to spread the R&D over several models. I hate to say this but they need to make a platform with one of the Hemis in it, it really did hurt to even say that but I did.

[commandomatt]

IMHO SRT needs to pin the Viper as the proving grounds for future tech in the entire Chrysler lineup.

Build a DCT that can handle 1000HP, so when you drop it in your Chrysler 300 or Dart, you know it isn't going to break.

IMHO thats how the Viper needs to renew itself within SRT, be the proving ground for the future of Chrysler.

I agree with you...and this is also the same reason the Viper needs to go back to 'The Ring' to make a major impact. Over achieve and pass it down the line where it will impact all cars within the brand

Matt

[viperdan]

It sounds like some are wanting a modern day Viper, IMO it should stay what it is and always was which is an old school sledge hammer in a scalpels body. Yes a DCT would shave some time in the quarter and maybe even on the road courses but it's not for me, I want to shift my sports car with an old fashion clutch and shifter. I owned a LP640 Lamborghini and as much as the shifting was quick it put me to sleep, for me a sports car is all about it being a drivers car. JMO...Dan

[ViperGTS]

Can Nine Ball translate this for me ? ( he is an engineer, I am only a bison burger flipper) My question is .... is this a dual clutch OR a torque converter ??

its an automatic transmission...ok?

[Steve M]

What happens to the price of a Dart or a 300 when it has a Viper DCT trans in it?

Probably very little...if you can spread the cost of R&D out over a large production run (so that it wasn't a Viper unique transmission), you can bring the per unit cost down to a reasonable level. It'd be hard to justify to the bean counters though...

[ViperSmith]

What happens to the price of a Dart or a 300 when it has a Viper DCT trans in it?

It Is dirt cheap because it is available across their entire lineup!

[commandomatt]

It sounds like some are wanting a modern day Viper, IMO it should stay what it is and always was which is an old school sledge hammer in a scalpels body. Yes a DCT would shave some time in the quarter and maybe even on the road courses but it's not for me, I want to shift my sports car with an old fashion clutch and shifter. I owned a LP640 Lamborghini and as much as the shifting was quick it put me to sleep, for me a sports car is all about it being a drivers car. JMO...Dan

I also wish it was more like the old, brutally raw Vipers from previous generations but the fact is....it has turned into something different and I don't believe there is any turning back at this point

So now it's a matter of making it competitive with equipment that is becoming available in the cars that are it the same class. If this doesn't happen, then it will most certainly be left behind. Both performance and sales wise.

I still don't care about the overall design but if it survives it may also evolve into something different in the future.

Matt

[MoparBoyy]

Chrysler has the 8 speed ZF trans they can put in the viper... but would they? no.

[Black Adder]

Yes its an automatic, probably with paddle shifters to come

[ViperSmith]

I also wish it was more like the old, brutally raw Vipers from previous generations but the fact is....it has turned into something different and I don't believe there is any turning back at this point

So now it a matter of making it competitive with equipment that is becoming available in the cars that are it the same class. If this doesn't happen, then it will most certainly be left behind. Both performance and sales wise.

I still don't care about the overall design but if it survives it may also evolve into something different in the future.

Matt
IMHO SRT needs to set the bar to what the viper is in 2014. It is and won't be the viper of 1992, ever again. But, it can still be the "dumb brute" it has always been, just a bit refined.

It needs to survive in 2014, which isn't a bad thing.

Give it DCT and KERS and shock the world again with what America can do.

[The_Greg]

It Is dirt cheap because it is available across their entire lineup!

I think you know this but feel it should still be stated: You can't 'parts bin' a transmission for an entire lineup. A single model number won't serve a dart I4 and a Viper V10 at the same time. They will be different part numbers and therefore different tooling, design, and ultimately different business cases.

The way the industry works, its not really Chrysler's part to R&D an entirely new transmission technology. They might partner with a supplier to do so (In which case, they basically are just offering a test bed and hours of use to the supplier), and indeed they are working with ZF now to produce some great transmissions on the horizon.

The Chrysler group lineup is aimed at commuting. The Viper is aimed at racing. How can the Viper pioneer technology for a field it isn't even aimed at? Of course there are opportunities, but they are limited. The S Class works for Mercedes because luxury is all they do. The Viper is a bit different than the rest of they Chrysler lineup :)

[commandomatt]

Well, if we are now in fact 'in bed' with Fiat and ultimately Ferrari.....why can we not take advantage of that ?

Great..we got good leather for our seats but how hard would that really have been to source ?

Give us something that Ferrari already has on the shelf...ready to go. Sure it would need some changes but certainly beats starting from scratch

Matt

[ViperSmith]

I get that the same tranny in the Viper wouldn't be in a Dart, come on.

Overall point, Viper makes a better business case if they can use it to test future tech, IMHO.

[Troublemaker]

Well, if we are now in fact 'in bed' with Fiat and ultimately Ferrari.....why can we not take advantage of that ?

Great..we got good leather for our seats but how hard would that really have been to source ?

Give us something that Ferrari already has on the shelf...ready to go. Sure it would need some changes but certainly beat starting from scratch

Matt

Because I think it has become Cinderella to the evil step sisters. From what it looks like from the outside, the Viper is being held back because it has to run in the shadow of the Ferrari, not out front shining like it should. I know it's been said that this isn't the case, but I think that's a load of BS. I honestly think the persona of the Viper being as convoluted as it is, is another thing hampering it. First it was a hammer of a car, then it became this refined "thing" that doesn't know what's its supposed to be anymore. The hammer is still in there, unfortunately it got coated in fluff that ran the price up to the point the hammer buyers don't want it. I will end this with the idea that that they still need a base, base model that offers all the performance of the higher end models at a price point that hammer buyers will return. Going after the new breed has left the car with an identity crisis.

[MtnBiker]

DCT is not for the Viper. Go buy a BMW or Audi if that's what you want. My wife drives an Audi S4 and the DCT transmission is incredible, fast and smooth. BUT, it is so boring why bother. I track the car and there are barely any cars that can stay with me, even with my old school car, hahahahaha. I am no racer and never will be. I just enjoy learning to drive this hard to control beast.

[viperdan]

DCT is not for the Viper. Go buy a BMW or Audi if that's what you want. My wife drives an Audi S4 and the DCT transmission is incredible, fast and smooth. BUT, it is so boring why bother. I track the car and there are barely any cars that can stay with me, even with my old school car, hahahahaha. I am no racer and never will be. I just enjoy learning to drive this hard to control beast.

YEP! Put it this way for those who own or have driven a Viper, can you see yourself paddling the car? I would never buy a Viper if it only came with a DCT...PERIOD!

[commandomatt]

Options guys....just because YOU don't want the DCT, doesn't mean there isn't a fair amount of people that do want it. Especially in the new market SRT is trying to enter. Its about ensuring the survival of our beast.

Like Ceramic brakes, they can make it an option and then the customer can choose. Its to bad when someone may walk just because its not available

Just like with the R8, many choose the 6 speed but also now with the introduction of the 'S-Tronic', they probably sell just as many of those. The older 'R' version was apparently not a very smooth setup. I have not driven either R8

I would not think the Viper would get any less exciting to drive with DCT. Its so much about the V10 and the overall responsiveness of the car. If they added this tranny it would probably be and amazing experience.

Then keep the 6 speed for those that would prefer that....problem solved

Matt

[05Commemorative]

Options guys....just because YOU don't want the DCT, doesn't mean there is a fair amount of people that do want it. Especially in the new market SRT is trying to enter. Its about ensuring the survival of our beast.

Like Ceramic brakes, they can make it an option and then the customer can choose. Its to bad when someone may walk just because its not available

Just like with the R8, many choose the 6 speed but also now with the introduction of the 'S-Tronic', they probably sell just as many of those. The older 'R' version was apparently not a very smooth setup. I have not driven either R8

I would not think the Viper would get any less exciting to drive with DCT. Its so much about the V10 and the overall responsiveness of the car. If they added this tranny it would probably be and amazing experience.

Then keep the 6 speed for those that would prefer that....problem solved

Matt

Exactly. This is such a no-brainer for SRT to offer as an option. >60% of vettes, >75% of Porsche 911, and >80% of R8's are sold with the automatics today and those %'s are only rising. If an option, why do those care that would not order it? It will make the car even faster on the street, strip and the track. More than anything though, it makes the car more approachable to the market, particular the space it plays in.

I said on the other forum today, just as an experience form a guy that loves manuals: test drove a manual and a auto new 911 2S recently. The manual was fun and engaging, but the auto was far faster, more responsive, and easier to live with and honestly became more fun the longer I drove it. When I treated the paddles as if it was the shifter (manual mentality), the car was a blast and very impressive. When I got tired of that and just wanted to cruze, I let it behave like a normal auto. In the end, it would be a very tough call on which to get, but if I wanted more performance everywhere, the auto supplied that. (no matter how much I did not want to be the case)

[Troublemaker]

Exactly. This is such a no-brainer for SRT to offer as an option. >60% of vettes, >75% of Porsche 911, and >80% of R8's are sold with the automatics today and those %'s are only rising. If an option, why do those care that would not order it? It will make the car even faster on the street, strip and the track. More than anything though, it makes the car more approachable to the market, particular the space it plays in.

I said on the other forum today, just as an experience form a guy that loves manuals: test drove a manual and a auto new 911 2S recently. The manual was fun and engaging, but the auto was far faster, more responsive, and easier to live with and honestly became more fun the longer I drove it. When I treated the paddles as if it was the shifter (manual mentality), the car was a blast and very impressive. When I got tired of that and just wanted to cruze, I let it behave like a normal auto. In the end, it would be a very tough call on which to get, but if I wanted more performance everywhere, the auto supplied that. (no matter how much I did not want to be the case)

This has been my stance from the beginning. Strip this car bare and offer a mountain of options. And let us pick whatever color we want.

[KRATEDISEASE]

Yes its an automatic, probably with paddle shifters to come

I assume you mean "old school" torque converter and Not DCT.....ANYWAY


I read somewhere that 1000Nm works out to about 725 ft/lbs of torque capability......

Who wants to bet that the new C7 Z06 (or what ever Chevy calls their 2015 supercharged Vette) will be available with this 8 speed auto ???

I strongly suspect that with this torque capacity it will be used as an optional auto transmission in the higher output Vettes, and if so, OMG, that spells more difficulty for the Viper related to sales IMO,

ANY opinions ???

[MtnBiker]

Pagani doesn't offer DCT. It saved them 100kgs. It would cost a lot of $ to develop DCT for the Viper. Probably not in the budget and definitely not in the DNA.

[KRATEDISEASE]

Pagani doesn't offer DCT. It saved them 100kgs. It would cost a lot of $ to develop DCT for the Viper. Probably not in the budget and definitely not in the DNA.

I am just wondering if GM will offer this 8 speed auto in the Z06 supercharged Corvette for 2015 (??)

I am guessing the it will.

Any opinions ??

[Policy Limits]

Funny how the consensus is that there's a shoe string budget on the Viper.

Here's a fact: the price tag on my Maserati was identical to the one on my gen V. Just sayin

[BigBadViper]

I think Viper is getting killed by not having this stuff. make it an option and then those that don't want it don't get it. I personally don't think driving a 6 speed is that great of a thrill. I am putting an auto in one of my Vipers as we speak. I still have another 6 speed Viper and a 6 speed Lambo, so big deal. I just personally don't think driving around country roads shifting through gears makes it any more fun than driving around in an automatic. Maybe I am also tired of the $35K in parts I have had to buy because my wonderful 6 speed has destroyed everything. 3 transmissions, 2 rear ends, 2 sets of axles, just not that fun.

[ViperSmith]

I think Viper is getting killed by not having this stuff. make it an option and then those that don't want it don't get it. I personally don't think driving a 6 speed is that great of a thrill. I am putting an auto in one of my Vipers as we speak. I still have another 6 speed Viper and a 6 speed Lambo, so big deal. I just personally don't think driving around country roads shifting through gears makes it any more fun than driving around in an automatic. Maybe I am also tired of the $35K in parts I have had to buy because my wonderful 6 speed has destroyed everything. 3 transmissions, 2 rear ends, 2 sets of axles, just not that fun.

When I am driving, I don't even put any mental effort into shifting or when to shift, so I am unsure why people are so against DCT.

[BigBadViper]

When I am driving, I don't even put any mental effort into shifting or when to shift, so I am unsure why people are so against DCT.

To me it seems like the natural progression of things. Manuals were the first things to come out. then they discovered autos and now they have the DCTs.

To me it is like someone saying they like the raw power and no GUI of the 286 computer. No UI to slow it down, pure speed.

[Canadian venom]

Funny how the consensus is that there's a shoe string budget on the Viper.

Here's a fact: the price tag on my Maserati was identical to the one on my gen V. Just sayin

But they sell a lot more Maseratis than Viper...;)

[Schen]

Maybe I am also tired of the $35K in parts I have had to buy because my wonderful 6 speed has destroyed everything. 3 transmissions, 2 rear ends, 2 sets of axles, just not that fun.

Auto's can do the same when you start upgrading. You upgrade one thing, you might as well do the rest. There's no such thing as bulletproof parts, something is bound to break.

--RS

[Coloviper]

If Viper does go down the path of DCT or Auto type of trans, then at least make it so there is NO "drive" setting where it shifts the gears for you. It should be manual paddles for each gear shift, period. That sort of fits with the Viper DNA even if it slightly breaks one of the Viper 10 Commandments slightly. It may still follow them on a technicality as if the new trans requires you to manually shift a paddle at ALL times for ALL gears, technically it is not an auto which drives and shifts for you. As herb (and others) drew up the original 10 commandments, they can change the original 10 commandments. I believe their intention was to not have a trans that drives for you when they craved them in stone.

Last time I checked the Viper hated rules, but lived by values. Redefine those values and move forth. The Viper will still break all the rules.

I can't find what all those commandments were, can one of the brain trust here repost them?

Thanks

[Policy Limits]

Even Lambo is going dual clutch next season....and you can't buy a Ferrari with a manual if u wanted to.

Porsche has had great success with its PDK; I think SRT CEO said paddles for the snake are inevitable. It doesn't have to be a bad thing though. Increase red line from 6250 to 8k and allow for exclusive driver operation and it will fly.

[ViperSmith]

Here is the issue with the DCT in the Viper. IMHO it is all or none.

The new 911's are built around PDK, previous generations were centered around the manuals, which was why PDK was always "meh" in them. Now most consider them to be perfection.

The Viper is built around the manual at this point, the question is would a DCT in it be a useless exercise because the Viper isn't built for it.

[pythonpete]

Even Lambo is going dual clutch next season....and you can't buy a Ferrari with a manual if u wanted to.

Porsche has had great success with its PDK; I think SRT CEO said paddles for the snake are inevitable. It doesn't have to be a bad thing though. Increase red line from 6250 to 8k and allow for exclusive driver operation and it will fly.

If the RPM goes to 8000 wouldn't the torque drop precipitously?

[Policy Limits]

Not sure maybe the SRT engineers can chime in on that.

[slitherv10]

I don't understand why some of you out here are more interested in making the car faster with technology upgrades and following the competition instead of keeping the original stance the Viper had which made it distinct and thus formed it's persona as to the car that everyone loves to hate.
When the rest of the competition was refining themselves back in the late 80's with technology, what did Dodge do?.......They took their ideas back to old school technology ( Shelby Cobra times) where big block power ruled. Where everyone wanted the big block muscle car look. Not the refined teck savvy ways that Chevy and Ford were headed.
They introduced the very first V10 powered sports car with old school rawness and muscle car look. They went backwards (no windows,no roof etc) and took the market...backwards people, not forwards. It was the V10 introduction, the look of the car and the rawness in its nature that had everyone scrambling in their piggy banks looking for ways to get their hands on one. They were not looking at the current technology at that time and the refinements that Corvette, Mustang, Porshce and the like were doing. They looked at the American public and what was missing for so long. The muscle car erra and the need for speed.

I say...IMHO......now this may sound a little old and fumbling to some, but, SRT needs to take this car to another level within itself. Compete within itself. Not against the competition. SRT should not look to better the competition at all. They should not be looking to "follow" the new technology that the competition has or is looking to have. They need to re establish the Viper as its own identity once again as it did back then.
You ask how?....well....here's my answer.

To keep this car competing against itself and make it distinct among itself, I would bring out a 12 Cylinder model and force induction. Bump up this baby to even greater heights as it had done with the intro of the V10 back then. Offering a V12 would in my opinion add a "oneUp" model per say. Make the V10 the base model and build the V12 to "out of this world" proportions regarding power and performance. Keep the " no placement for displacement" quote alive and living within this cars nature , the way it should always be and has been. Forget paddle this and shift that. Power and performance along with styling. No 19 speaker this and leather that. Save the money and put it into the power which got this car here.

Reborn once again as King of the Hill with the bigger is better attitude that it all began with and got us drooling.

Going forward is not always the key to success. Look within yourself and find the answers.

[XSnake]

Even Lambo is going dual clutch next season....and you can't buy a Ferrari with a manual if u wanted to.

Porsche has had great success with its PDK; I think SRT CEO said paddles for the snake are inevitable. It doesn't have to be a bad thing though. Increase red line from 6250 to 8k and allow for exclusive driver operation and it will fly.

The crank size is the limiting factor on RPM, not trans. The old Oreca cars that ran to 8k had different cranks with smaller journals.

[Newport Viper]

Hell even my DD Mini CooperS has paddle shifters at this point. They are so boring to use I just leave it in Automatic. I hate to see the Viper with it but, they almost have to do it to keep it current.

[ViperSmith]

A V12 Viper wouldn't interest me at all.

V10 + KERS would get me quite excited. IMHO it would change the performance landscape in America. Instant torque? Yes please.

[05Commemorative]

If Viper does go down the path of DCT or Auto type of trans, then at least make it so there is NO "drive" setting where it shifts the gears for you. It should be manual paddles for each gear shift, period. That sort of fits with the Viper DNA even if it slightly breaks one of the Viper 10 Commandments slightly. It may still follow them on a technicality as if the new trans requires you to manually shift a paddle at ALL times for ALL gears, technically it is not an auto which drives and shifts for you. As herb (and others) drew up the original 10 commandments, they can change the original 10 commandments. I believe their intention was to not have a trans that drives for you when they craved them in stone.

Last time I checked the Viper hated rules, but lived by values. Redefine those values and move forth. The Viper will still break all the rules.

I can't find what all those commandments were, can one of the brain trust here repost them?

Thanks
I am confused by the logic. why would I want a DCT/auto that can't go into auto mode when it is readily avail. I just don't get why you would remove functionality that has value for some. Forget this "DNA" deal, it is about selling cars that are competitive in their timeframe. Could you imagine the bad press of having a DCT transmission, but not including the basic functionality of shifting on its own?

[05Commemorative]

Here is the issue with the DCT in the Viper. IMHO it is all or none.

The new 911's are built around PDK, previous generations were centered around the manuals, which was why PDK was always "meh" in them. Now most consider them to be perfection.

The Viper is built around the manual at this point, the question is would a DCT in it be a useless exercise because the Viper isn't built for it.
can you elaborate "911" built around the PDK" and Viper build around the "manual"? They are just transmissions, so don't get how the car is built around them.

[viperdan]

With respect to all those that would like to see a DCT, you can keep it! It's not as if the Viper is getting annihilated in the 1/4 or on any road course, am I right? Being a road course guy I'd rather see CCB's and cup tires, if the TA had these at Laguna it may have run a 1:30. At the end of the day for me part of the thrill of driving a Viper is using the clutch and shifter as if it's the 60's again! lol

[KRATEDISEASE]

I don't understand why some of you out here are more interested in making the car faster with technology upgrades and following the competition instead of keeping the original stance the Viper had which made it distinct and thus formed it's persona as to the car that everyone loves to hate.
When the rest of the competition was refining themselves back in the late 80's with technology, what did Dodge do?.......They took their ideas back to old school technology ( Shelby Cobra times) where big block power ruled. Where everyone wanted the big block muscle car look. Not the refined teck savvy ways that Chevy and Ford were headed.
They introduced the very first V10 powered sports car with old school rawness and muscle car look. They went backwards (no windows,no roof etc) and took the market...backwards people, not forwards. It was the V10 introduction, the look of the car and the rawness in its nature that had everyone scrambling in their piggy banks looking for ways to get their hands on one. They were not looking at the current technology at that time and the refinements that Corvette, Mustang, Porshce and the like were doing. They looked at the American public and what was missing for so long. The muscle car erra and the need for speed.

I say...IMHO......now this may sound a little old and fumbling to some, but, SRT needs to take this car to another level within itself. Compete within itself. Not against the competition. SRT should not look to better the competition at all. They should not be looking to "follow" the new technology that the competition has or is looking to have. They need to re establish the Viper as its own identity once again as it did back then.
You ask how?....well....here's my answer.

To keep this car competing against itself and make it distinct among itself, I would bring out a 12 Cylinder model and force induction. Bump up this baby to even greater heights as it had done with the intro of the V10 back then. Offering a V12 would in my opinion add a "oneUp" model per say. Make the V10 the base model and build the V12 to "out of this world" proportions regarding power and performance. Keep the " no placement for displacement" quote alive and living within this cars nature , the way it should always be and has been. Forget paddle this and shift that. Power and performance along with styling. No 19 speaker this and leather that. Save the money and put it into the power which got this car here.

Reborn once again as King of the Hill with the bigger is better attitude that it all began with and got us drooling.

Going forward is not always the key to success. Look within yourself and find the answers.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your main theme. The competition was refining nothing and had junk technology back in the 1980's. The government was restricting cars output and directing tech in the area of smog and fuel efficiency. The corvette had 205Hp in 1984.

The reason that the Viper was so cool was that it showed everyone that you could be bold and have 400hp. Not because it did not have windows.

If the Gen5 had 750hp with even a supercharger on top, it would be the car that it was back in 1992 and in 1996 with the GTS

[Coloviper]

The logic is pretty simple. I want to control the car, not some auto tranny with pre-programmed Drive. A non-drive mode DCT or a manual still requires 100% driver control. That is what I want. My Cayenne Turbo S is NEVER in the right gear with right shift point. When in manual steering wheel shift, I make sure it is exactly where I want it. NEVER met an auto tranny with shifting that matched my style of driving. Want to stay true to the heritage in some form, offer as I described. Bad press for no drive mode, I think it will be the other way around if they do. Each can have their own view, it is still a free country.

Why offer DCT all then? While my wife can't work a clutch and a good Viper friend has a bad left knee. In either case, they can still enjoy the car as described above.

[Policy Limits]

Hmmm somehow just throwing HP at it just isn't the answer at all.

Suspension, engineering and transmission are all relevant to performance.

I like my manual shifter it's an art, but a dinosaur. Have both as an option.

Btw love the V12 idea.

[KRATEDISEASE]

Hmmm somehow just throwing HP at it just isn't the answer at all.

Suspension, engineering and transmission are all relevant to performance.

I like my manual shifter it's an art, but a dinosaur. Have both as an option.

Btw love the V12 idea.


I agree, but more HP never hurt sales of any performance car. Even if just for bragging rights.

Yes, the a V12 would be great, but a cheaper alternative is to do a supercharger on top. Roe racing sold over 200 units as an aftermarket supplier. I have a Roe blower on my gen2 GTS. Imagine if Chrysler offered one OEM factory with full warranty. I think instead of the GTS interior upgrade, possibly IMO, more people would pay $25,000 over the base SRT Viper for a Supercharged V10 with 750 HP.

I know that I would in a heartbeat.

a V12 is just to expensive to develop for low production at Vipers price point.

[05Commemorative]

The logic is pretty simple. I want to control the car, not some auto tranny with pre-programmed Drive. A non-drive mode DCT or a manual still requires 100% driver control. That is what I want. My Cayenne Turbo S is NEVER in the right gear with right shift point. When in manual steering wheel shift, I make sure it is exactly where I want it. NEVER met an auto tranny with shifting that matched my style of driving. Want to stay true to the heritage in some form, offer as I described. Bad press for no drive mode, I think it will be the other way around if they do. Each can have their own view, it is still a free country.

Why offer DCT all then? While my wife can't work a clutch and a good Viper friend has a bad left knee. In either case, they can still enjoy the car as described above.
sure, I get all that, you just want to have "manual" mode. but what I don't understand is why you don't want the "auto" mode? nobody says you have to use it, but this was about selling cars to a broader market. So, confused why not having the settings that already exists on all these transmissions is a problem.

[Policy Limits]

I love how folks refer to the "viper's price point" as if its low or something. It's the same exact price tag of a new Porsche 991 C4S, a new Lotus Evora, a new Maserati, a new GR-R, a new ZR1. The other consideration is its new price is also the preowned price of many F cars, Lambo's and Bentley's which is a whole other consumer dynamic.

For $135k they can give more options. For $120k just look at the great job they did with the TA. They should take the TA as a starting point and try to improve from there. Now that's a great idea. ESP for the new gen ACR.

[Troublemaker]

I think the V12 would be an epic failure. One the the things that has hampered the last couple Gens has been the V10s computer. It is such a limited production platform to build on that the aftermarket hasn't really spent much time on it. Now if you build another motor that is even more limited it will never get touched either. I think they have a great block of ice to carve on right now, but to build your masterpiece you need to remove anything that isn't the masterpiece.

As far as Kers goes, interesting idea but now make it light and figure out how to package it. From an R&D stand point I don't think it will ever happen on the Viper, but it's cool to dream.

[Policy Limits]

It's simple really: the CEO said the manual is being replaced with Paddles. So it's just a matter of when.

As far as making the car an improvement, how about listening to consumers? I believe in the past that 40% of owners opted for a vert, yet in two production years the car is only offered as a coupe. I've heard others express a desire for carbon ceramic brakes, though I'm just fine with steels. I like the idea of only one base car, not two models, that u can build up from. Do it like Porsche and build what you want. Don't limit it to two colors on brake calipers; don't say you must have rattler wheels on the launch if someone wants the venoms, etc.

The manual is honestly lots of fun. I haven't driven one in 20 years and picked it right back up again. It matches the car's personality perfectly as is. People fear change but its inevitable.

[ViperSmith]

I think the V12 would be an epic failure. One the the things that has hampered the last couple Gens has been the V10s computer. It is such a limited production platform to build on that the aftermarket hasn't really spent much time on it. Now if you build another motor that is even more limited it will never get touched either. I think they have a great block of ice to carve on right now, but to build your masterpiece you need to remove anything that isn't the masterpiece.

As far as Kers goes, interesting idea but now make it light and figure out how to package it. From an R&D stand point I don't think it will ever happen on the Viper, but it's cool to dream.

What if they went with a smaller V8 and paired with KERS, I'd guess it would fit into the same space as the big ass V10

I don't think the viper always has to be a big burly v10, as long as it performs. IMHO something like KERS could enable it to avoid turbos, possibly.

Who knows, I am not an automotive engineer :)

[Troublemaker]

What if they went with a smaller V8 and paired with KERS, I'd guess it would fit into the same space as the big ass V10

I don't think the viper always has to be a big burly v10, as long as it performs. IMHO something like KERS could enable it to avoid turbos, possibly.

Who knows, I am not an automotive engineer :)

As much as I hate to see it go, the V10 has limited time left. If you are going to get rid of the V10, let the Viper die and call the new car something different. I still think they need to offer a very basic model for a good price. Make everything an option, I mean everything. The only way to get the model to grow and have the aftermarket embrace the car is to get more of them out there, plain and simple. I'm not saying to mass produce it, just a few thousand a year.

Unfortunately it's the packaging of the flywheel,and the weight of the system that keeps the Kers systems as just a dream. Unfortunately I am not an Automotive Engineer either, just an Industrial Mechanic for equipment most don't even know exists, but I do have to work on Engineers pipe dreams that somehow made it past the drawing board. I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, just a very complex one that would be hard to fit in a car that wasn't originally engineered for it.

[Policy Limits]

Well Audi R8 runs a V10 with paddle shifters and the car isn't priced that much higher.

[Space Truckin]

Well Audi R8 runs a V10 with paddle shifters and the car isn't priced that much higher.


Beg to differ, see link below

http://www.penskeaudi.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=R8&&&&

[Newport Viper]

i agree, but more hp never hurt sales of any performance car. Even if just for bragging rights.


Bingo!!!!!

[Policy Limits]

Beg to differ, see link below

http://www.penskeaudi.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=R8&&&&
I've seen gen V's priced close to this at 165k

[Space Truckin]

A DCT would not be worth that kinda of $ to me. The 185k asking price is approximately 30% (closer to 35% after I pay our moonbeam governor) more than what my Gen V set me back. While i think the R8 is cool (550hp, 400tq), my own wants, wishes it doesn't do it for me. JM2C

[Policy Limits]

It doesn't need to cost that much to do it. Again, my Maserati had the same exact price tag as the V and so doesn't the Porsche C4S, and they have paddles.

[Chorps]

V12 isn't feasible at all. V10 for the Viper sells fewer than 1000 units (way fewer...) so a V12 would sell how many units?

It would be a different story if the Viper was 250k, but even then, who would pay that kind of money for a Gen V Viper?

[The_Greg]

Getting a little more back on topic (why would we bother re-tooling for a new V12 block, again??? When has 10 cyl 8.4L left you wanting more?) I think a DCT option is fine, if SRT thinks it will sell substantially more cars. For now, and a long time from now, the current 6 speed is one of the best manual transmissions out there, is it not?

Yes, DCT is the wave of the future. Its as automatic and programmable as a slushbox auto, yet you get the mechanical efficiency of a manual. Most of us will probably see the complete phasing out of a manual transmission in our lifetime. But that time is not now, and I think the Viper should be one of the last to change. Either that, or if it changes soon, it needs to really knock it out of the park. A crummy DCT would infuriate the Viper faithful. A delightful one might do a lot of convincing.